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Thread: Did Jake know about the fall? How could he?

  1. #51
    Life is beautiful LadyHitchhiker will become famous soon enough LadyHitchhiker will become famous soon enough LadyHitchhiker's Avatar

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    I don't know why but I always felt that Jake knew something bad was going to happen to him and he went anyways.

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    damned and saved Letti will become famous soon enough Letti's Avatar

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    I can't add more to the discussion but I'll write down how I see.
    I think it was the same Jake. Roland got into the paradox because he changed his own past (he didn't let Jake get hit so there was boy and there was no boy at the same time in his memories).
    Jake was suffering from it because he was way too good and strong at the touch. In fact he didn't or shouldn't get into the paradox because his future was changed and not his past still he was suffering from it relly hard because his mind and soul could touch and feel that alternative possibility that once used to be the reality.

    Roland would have understood.

  3. #53
    Roont Matt will become famous soon enough Matt's Avatar

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    So what do you think Letti--is there a boys body under the mountain or was it somehow erased?
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    Gunslinger Apprentice aurora is on a distinguished road aurora's Avatar

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    You really want to spin your head add in the ending, where Roland gets sent back to the beginning again, well the stretch n the desert anyway. Jakes, lived/died twice and now is alive again?!

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    damned and saved Letti will become famous soon enough Letti's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by Matt View Post
    So what do you think Letti--is there a boys body under the mountain or was it somehow erased?
    For me it's absolutely clear that there is no body under the mountain. When Roland didn't let Jake die in his world the body vanished immediately. If Jake had left footprints in the sand of the desert they did too. Completely. As if Jake had never been there. Because that's the truth.
    Footprints from the desertsand... a ruined body from the darkness can vanish without causing any big problem.
    But it's not so simple with memories.

    Roland would have understood.

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    Gunslinger Apprentice aurora is on a distinguished road aurora's Avatar

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    But it's not so simple with memories.
    Why not? memories are nothing but chemical footprints left in cells, nothing more nothing less. If Jakes body vanished then the memories 'should' vanish just as easily, both are completely organic and thus volatile in nature.

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    damned and saved Letti will become famous soon enough Letti's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by aurora View Post
    But it's not so simple with memories.
    Why not? memories are nothing but chemical footprints left in cells, nothing more nothing less. If Jakes body vanished then the memories 'should' vanish just as easily, both are completely organic and thus volatile in nature.
    I don't think it's so easy with memories. Because yeah maybe memories are just footprints left in cells but look at the emotional side of it. If we look at the human body and mind the way we look at a built-up system of a robot we should say that yes, memories should vanish as easily as footprints vanish from sand. But I think it's much more complex than that. We have emotions and our memories give life to our really deep and complex emotions. And it happens that we lose some certain memory /because of time or an accident/ but we still have the emotion OR we lose an emotion - we don't feel it anymore - but we have the memory of it...
    Still these are just guesses. Nothing is true or false because we can't try it out. We can't change someone's past to see if he gets into a paradox because of some remained memories and feelings but I think it's possible that it could happen.

    Roland would have understood.

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    Gunslinger Apprentice aurora is on a distinguished road aurora's Avatar

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    Sorry I was just trying to bait you and others on that one. I agree, having done the dead thing memories stay with us even sans-physical body so memory HAS to be something more. (Nuff said on that issue from me)

    For me the final answer all deals on if the original Jake was from Keystone Earth, since obviously he was not I think that there is a potential of a body due to the infinite possibilities of near infinite multi-verses.
    However I personally don't think that there is a body down there. Walter already took a dead Jake and made him alive once and could have easily done it twice after all we have no idea where he was at the actual time of Jakes fall. Its highly possible he took Jake and moved him into another multi-verse earth, maybe even Keystone earth. But if he did that what happened to the Jake that was already part of that Earth?

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    Gunslinger Apprentice ATG is on a distinguished road

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    Quote Originally Posted by Brice View Post
    I absolutely agree and really can't even see how it could be another Jake.

    Totally. There are other worlds than these.

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    Roont Matt will become famous soon enough Matt's Avatar

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    Which to me means there could totally be another Jake.
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    ...or the same one. That's the paradox threatening to destroy the world[s] better than any unefficient gnawing on those beams

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    i think it is the same Jake. It has been along time since I read the beginning of the dark tower series. I am starting the series again now. I don't think I can put any real imput on this question until I reread the series. Good question though.

  13. #63
    Roont Matt will become famous soon enough Matt's Avatar

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    I'm fine with the same one its just a strange thing for me to wrap my mind around.

    I remember the little drawing Roland did in the sand, looked a little like the tracing of an eye without the pupil in the middle. One line opens into two and gets wider around a circle, closes into one on the other side.

    The question to me is that Jake either was or was not there. If Roland saved him from the push then it seems like when they were back together outside Lud, the memories would fix themselves as separate. Because that's what happened. No Jake at the Way Station. That means same Jake, no body under the mountains.

    And if that is the case, then what happened to everything he was involved in?
    Spoiler:
    Perhaps this was the loop before?
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  14. #64
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    THIS is why I believe in everything, my friends... everything is.




    [I think it all happened.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jean View Post
    I wouldn't advice anyone to go hunting for it anyway, or for any other conclusive artefacts of time loop aftermath. Paradox may grow exponentially, and I am afraid nobody can know what it might lead to.

    wise words.


    Spoiler:
    ,but down the rabbit hole we go Alice.
    [/QUOTE]

    The answer is within

    all matter is energy, all energy is GOD

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    i'm glad i found this thread because i'm reading waste lands again and read this part last night...
    here's how i see it: in my mind it's the same physical jake everywhere.

    as in, jake was living in new york in 1977, was pushed into the street, died, was "re-born" into the desert, met roland, fell and died in roland's world, was thrown back into his former life a couple weeks before he "died" the first time, was forced to re-live those weeks knowing what was coming, was denied his "death," found a way back into mid-world a couple days later.
    i see it all as the same physical body, just like a time-travel thing....
    so, in my mind, there would be no body under the mountains, and jake actually experienced death twice.

    the part this doesn't explain is why it's confusing to them both...
    in my scenario it makes sense that jake would be confused because it's a sequence of events that happened.
    but not roland, because roland would have ACTUALLY experienced finding jake in the desert, letting him fall, and bringing him back.
    so where does his confusion come in? when he changes the fact that jake actually died in 1977 and in that case he wouldn't be in the desert... right?

    dang, i think i just confused myself even more. did any of that make sense?


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    Quote Originally Posted by Matt View Post
    That makes some sense but what I am hearing is that there is no body of a young boy under the mountain?

    Somehow at the bottom of the fall he returned? Or it never happened--I'm not sure.

    However, on more reflection of the original question (because this thing about Jake poses all sorts), I do seem to remember that he "relived" it somehow. And I also seem to remember a place where he tells Roland..."you dropped me" right after they are reunited in this book.

    I'm not totally sure how it could work either but I think the question about Jakes actual death under the mountain is somehow key.
    Ok, I'm not sure if someone mentioned this or not, but the whole reason Jake and Roland were going crazy was because when Roland had to get the medicine to make him better, did he not take over the body of the guy who pushed Jake into traffic to begin with? And that being the case, he also prevented Jake from being pushed, which prevented him from ever ending up at the waystation, which created the paradox that plagued them both.

    Jake was technically never with Roland, and so he never fell, which means that no, his body is not there in the mountains because Roland went back and stopped him from ever being a part of the story told in The Gunslinger in the first place. He changed history, took Jake right out of it. So even though we read it, when we read Roland going back and preventing Jake from getting hit by that car, he made everything we read about Jake in the first book false information, but both characters still remember the events, thus the paradox.

    That being said, the fact that they were both going crazy means that they do both in fact remembered the events that Roland prevented from happening, because by all truth the events should have happened.

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    M.I.A. Unfound One is on a distinguished road Unfound One's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by Candice Dionysus View Post
    Jake was technically never with Roland, and so he never fell, which means that no, his body is not there in the mountains because Roland went back and stopped him from ever being a part of the story told in The Gunslinger in the first place. He changed history, took Jake right out of it. So even though we read it, when we read Roland going back and preventing Jake from getting hit by that car, he made everything we read about Jake in the first book false information, but both characters still remember the events, thus the paradox.

    That being said, the fact that they were both going crazy means that they do both in fact remembered the events that Roland prevented from happening, because by all truth the events should have happened.
    ahhh this makes a lot of sense.
    i still don't want to believe that the events of book one NEVER HAPPENED.
    i still see it as a chain of events, but i guess i need to change how i think about it?
    it's so confusing!


  18. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by Unfound One View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Candice Dionysus View Post
    Jake was technically never with Roland, and so he never fell, which means that no, his body is not there in the mountains because Roland went back and stopped him from ever being a part of the story told in The Gunslinger in the first place. He changed history, took Jake right out of it. So even though we read it, when we read Roland going back and preventing Jake from getting hit by that car, he made everything we read about Jake in the first book false information, but both characters still remember the events, thus the paradox.

    That being said, the fact that they were both going crazy means that they do both in fact remembered the events that Roland prevented from happening, because by all truth the events should have happened.
    ahhh this makes a lot of sense.
    i still don't want to believe that the events of book one NEVER HAPPENED.
    i still see it as a chain of events, but i guess i need to change how i think about it?
    it's so confusing!
    Just try to imagine how they felt if you yourself find it very confusing.

    Roland would have understood.

  19. #69
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    wow.
    that really puts me in my place...
    if jake or roland were here i'd cry their pardon.


  20. #70
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    Well here goes, you guys gotta remember its been a few years since i read the serise. And wastelands was exactly my favourite book of the serise.

    I belive in essence it was the same jake, not physically. The jake pulled through the door in the wastelands "expericanced" (or so i remember) in dreams or otherwise what other jake went through, didnt he? Its technically the same thing....i think....
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    Gunslinger Apprentice aurora is on a distinguished road aurora's Avatar

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    I gave up trying to figure this one out based on physical possibility realizing that 'science' would never find an explanation since it was magic that caused a dead Jake to appear in Midworld in the first place an undoubtedly magic that caused Jake to reappear in New York, his original New York and BEFORE his death in the first place.

    Meaning I now conclude its the same Jake, Jake was in Midworld, Jake did die under the mountain but heres the interesting part I now say there is a body under the mountain. Why? Well after Jake died and was transported to Midworld there was also a body left laying dead in the streets of New York! The power of magic transcends the power of scientific explanation. The mere exists of the Tower itself proves that possibility.

  22. #72
    Roont Brice has much to be proud of Brice has much to be proud of Brice has much to be proud of Brice has much to be proud of Brice has much to be proud of Brice has much to be proud of Brice has much to be proud of Brice has much to be proud of Brice's Avatar

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    or maybe different sciences are at play when you deal with the points where dimensions join?

    Well, not different sciences, but different rules.
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  23. #73
    Gunslinger Apprentice Ka-tet is on a distinguished road Ka-tet's Avatar

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    Okay now im confused xD

    In idiot speak please aurora?
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    You burn prettily-Corwin of Amber

  24. #74
    The Tenant Jean has much to be proud of Jean has much to be proud of Jean has much to be proud of Jean has much to be proud of Jean has much to be proud of Jean has much to be proud of Jean has much to be proud of Jean has much to be proud of Jean has much to be proud of Jean has much to be proud of Jean's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by aurora View Post
    Meaning I now conclude its the same Jake, Jake was in Midworld, Jake did die under the mountain but heres the interesting part I now say there is a body under the mountain. Why? Well after Jake died and was transported to Midworld there was also a body left laying dead in the streets of New York! The power of magic transcends the power of scientific explanation. The mere exists of the Tower itself proves that possibility.
    Precisely. Although I am not sure there is magic involved here; maybe just thinking in more dimensions that we're used to.

    Have just seen Brice saying approximately the same; well, great minds and all that. The main point, however, is there is body under the mountain, and that would involve more thinking around the corners and through the walls than we've been taught to do (it might come easier to those who have any religion than to confirmed materialists and positivists, although purely scientific thinking has known its moments of inspiration, too).

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  25. #75
    Big Coffin Hunter jayson is on a distinguished road

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jean View Post
    Precisely. Although I am not sure there is magic involved here; maybe just thinking in more dimensions that we're used to.

    Have just seen Brice saying approximately the same; well, great minds and all that. The main point, however, is there is body under the mountain, and that would involve more thinking around the corners and through the walls than we've been taught to do (it might come easier to those who have any religion than to confirmed materialists and positivists, although purely scientific thinking has known its moments of inspiration, too).
    thanks, now i don't have to answer anymore other than to say "what jean just said"

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