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Thread: Did Jake know about the fall? How could he?

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    Roont Matt will become famous soon enough Matt's Avatar

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    Default Did Jake know about the fall? How could he?

    This has been bothering me so I decided to throw it out there.

    Obviously, the Jake that was pulled through the door on Dutch Hill was not the same Jake at the Way Station. The Jake at Dutch Hill was never dropped.

    Now I know they told him the story but I seem to remember Jake wondering if Roland would save him this time...this time?

    What do you guys think?
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    Banned obscurejude is on a distinguished road

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    Wow Matt. I'm going to need to think about it. Thanks for starting the thread.

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    Numenorean ManOfWesternesse is on a distinguished road ManOfWesternesse's Avatar

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    That's ....... a good question.
    I'm pretty sure you're right in saying Jake wondered about '...this time...'
    If so, is it a slip-up on SK's part - or did he offer explaination for it?
    Another thing to look out for next time round.
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    The Tenant Jean has much to be proud of Jean has much to be proud of Jean has much to be proud of Jean has much to be proud of Jean has much to be proud of Jean has much to be proud of Jean has much to be proud of Jean has much to be proud of Jean has much to be proud of Jean has much to be proud of Jean's Avatar

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    am I missing something again? about half the Waste Lands is about how Jake is fighting insanity brought about by the duality of his experience, one of the lines being the one where he is dropped.

    Ask not what bears can do for you, but what you can do for bears. (razz)
    When one is in agreement with bears one is always correct. (mae)

    bears are back!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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    The White! MonteGss is on a distinguished road MonteGss's Avatar

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    I'm with Jean on this one. I thought it was the same Jake.

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    Roont Brice has much to be proud of Brice has much to be proud of Brice has much to be proud of Brice has much to be proud of Brice has much to be proud of Brice has much to be proud of Brice has much to be proud of Brice has much to be proud of Brice's Avatar

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    I absolutely agree and really can't even see how it could be another Jake.
    The Awesomest fled across the desert and The Awesomer followed.

    If you rescue me
    I’ll be your friend forever


    I wish that I could write fiction, but that seems almost an impossibility. -howard phillips lovecraft (1915)



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    The Tenant Jean has much to be proud of Jean has much to be proud of Jean has much to be proud of Jean has much to be proud of Jean has much to be proud of Jean has much to be proud of Jean has much to be proud of Jean has much to be proud of Jean has much to be proud of Jean has much to be proud of Jean's Avatar

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    ::nods fervently::

    I thought it was the whole point?

    Ask not what bears can do for you, but what you can do for bears. (razz)
    When one is in agreement with bears one is always correct. (mae)

    bears are back!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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    Big Coffin Hunter jayson is on a distinguished road

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    I was always under the impression it was the same Jake, and that's why he was going crazy the same way Roland was, bc he was trapped in a paradox of time where he both did and didn't go to the Way Station. I thought the paradox ended at Dutch Hill, but I've always thought it was the same Jake, and I guess that answers the question of how he knew about the fall. There's all that stuff about getting back to Roland, "to his world" behind every door. He'd have to have been there to remember all of those things unless he really was going crazy and it was all in his imagination - in which case he wouldn't have made it thru Dutch Hill bc there wouldn't have been a Roland to go back to.

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    Roont Matt will become famous soon enough Matt's Avatar

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    Remember, the reason Jake and Roland were going crazy is because he was never at the ways station.

    "There was a boy, there was no boy"

    I am absolutely certain there were three Jakes, the first one--the one throughout the story and then the one
    Spoiler:
    that was Eddies brother.


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    Last edited by Letti; 03-08-2008 at 02:55 AM. Reason: it's not a spoiler thread so it needed the spoiler marks
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    Big Coffin Hunter jayson is on a distinguished road

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    the reason they were going crazy was bc of the paradox that he both was AND wasn't at the way station. roland draws the two lines to show both realities but i think both of those realites are represented in only one Roland and only one Jake, otherwise there'd be no insanity in Jake bc there'd be no paradox in Jake, only in Roland. that Jake goes crazy too suggests to me that it is the same Jake. maybe not the jake toren, but i do think both jake chambers' are the same jake.

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    Roont Matt will become famous soon enough Matt's Avatar

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    That makes some sense but what I am hearing is that there is no body of a young boy under the mountain?

    Somehow at the bottom of the fall he returned? Or it never happened--I'm not sure.

    However, on more reflection of the original question (because this thing about Jake poses all sorts), I do seem to remember that he "relived" it somehow. And I also seem to remember a place where he tells Roland..."you dropped me" right after they are reunited in this book.

    I'm not totally sure how it could work either but I think the question about Jakes actual death under the mountain is somehow key.
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    Roont Brice has much to be proud of Brice has much to be proud of Brice has much to be proud of Brice has much to be proud of Brice has much to be proud of Brice has much to be proud of Brice has much to be proud of Brice has much to be proud of Brice's Avatar

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    I agree Jake both was and wasn't at the way station simultaneously. The situation is similar to the grandfather paradox creating a division in both Roland's and Jake's minds. With Jake's death in Roland's world he both existed and ceased to exist. The reentry of Jake into Roland's world allowed the reversal of this paradox.
    The Awesomest fled across the desert and The Awesomer followed.

    If you rescue me
    I’ll be your friend forever


    I wish that I could write fiction, but that seems almost an impossibility. -howard phillips lovecraft (1915)



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    Guardian of the Beam Storyslinger will become famous soon enough Storyslinger will become famous soon enough Storyslinger's Avatar

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    I think that as the time went on in Mid-World, after he was drawn through the doorway, the memories from the first/former Jake, reoccured to him. So near the end, yes he knew and remembered.

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    Big Coffin Hunter jayson is on a distinguished road

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    i guess another related question could be
    Spoiler:
    is it the same callahan in the calla as the one who jumped in chicago? his memory seems intact


    i don't think it's the body that matters but the mind/sprirt/soul whatever you want to call it. callahan was the same, so was jake in my estimation, wherever the bodies may lie.

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    Goldmember Míchéal is on a distinguished road

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    i always thought it was the same Jake...

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    Roont Brice has much to be proud of Brice has much to be proud of Brice has much to be proud of Brice has much to be proud of Brice has much to be proud of Brice has much to be proud of Brice has much to be proud of Brice has much to be proud of Brice's Avatar

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    A point is though that IF as I suggested Jake simultaneously was at the way station and wasn't and then died and didn't in Roland's world he would have two distinct memory chains of the things that had happened in both possible pasts. This is where the mental confusion came in for him.
    The Awesomest fled across the desert and The Awesomer followed.

    If you rescue me
    I’ll be your friend forever


    I wish that I could write fiction, but that seems almost an impossibility. -howard phillips lovecraft (1915)



  17. #17
    Roont Brice has much to be proud of Brice has much to be proud of Brice has much to be proud of Brice has much to be proud of Brice has much to be proud of Brice has much to be proud of Brice has much to be proud of Brice has much to be proud of Brice's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by Storyslinger View Post
    I think that as the time went on in Mid-World, after he was drawn through the doorway, the memories from the first/former Jake, reoccured to him. So near the end, yes he knew and remembered.
    I on the otherhand don't think he forgot at all.
    The Awesomest fled across the desert and The Awesomer followed.

    If you rescue me
    I’ll be your friend forever


    I wish that I could write fiction, but that seems almost an impossibility. -howard phillips lovecraft (1915)



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    Guardian of the Beam Storyslinger will become famous soon enough Storyslinger will become famous soon enough Storyslinger's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by Brice View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Storyslinger View Post
    I think that as the time went on in Mid-World, after he was drawn through the doorway, the memories from the first/former Jake, reoccured to him. So near the end, yes he knew and remembered.
    I on the otherhand don't think he forgot at all.
    With is more than just very possible. Its just to damn hard to know for sure.

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    Big Coffin Hunter jayson is on a distinguished road

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    Quote Originally Posted by Brice View Post
    A point is though that IF as I suggested Jake simultaneously was at the way station and wasn't and then died and didn't in Roland's world he would have two distinct memory chains of the things that had happened in both possible pasts. This is where the mental confusion came in for him.
    i think that is not only A point but THE point. King mentions that "paradox is ended and time is mended" meaning the paradox of jake both being and not being at the way station is the crucial element of that part of the story, and also strongly suggesting it must be the same Jake

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    Roont Matt will become famous soon enough Matt's Avatar

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    I understand you guys and agree, I'm thinking Jake remembered the events.

    But did it actually happen then? Roland stopped Jake from being killed...so in the present of this book, Jake was never at the way station.

    So when he is pulled back through the door, he never actually went under the mountain right. Or did both?
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    Goldmember Míchéal is on a distinguished road

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    terribly confusing...

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    Big Coffin Hunter jayson is on a distinguished road

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    fun thread matt... i think the dropping was only "undone" in the sense that dropping jake sent him back to ny world and dutch hill brought him back to roland's world. i still think the dropping happened bc they both remember it. so undone in a sense, but not in another sense. how's that for a confused answer?

  23. #23
    Roont Brice has much to be proud of Brice has much to be proud of Brice has much to be proud of Brice has much to be proud of Brice has much to be proud of Brice has much to be proud of Brice has much to be proud of Brice has much to be proud of Brice's Avatar

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    When he reentered Roland's world it allowed for him to have been at the way station and to have been killed by Roland. It is the moment of discovery. Before that it is Shroedinger's cat both alive and dead at the same time and then upon his reentry into roland's world it allows for him to have been where he had and hadn't before. Yes, he was at the way station, and went under the mountains; but he also didn't. The paradox is negated or resolved by him being pulled by Roland through the door.
    The Awesomest fled across the desert and The Awesomer followed.

    If you rescue me
    I’ll be your friend forever


    I wish that I could write fiction, but that seems almost an impossibility. -howard phillips lovecraft (1915)



  24. #24
    Big Coffin Hunter jayson is on a distinguished road

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    Quote Originally Posted by Brice View Post
    When he reentered Roland's world it allowed for him to have been at the way station and to have been killed by Roland. It is the moment of discovery. Before that it is Shroedinger's cat both alive and dead at the same time and then upon his reentry into roland's world it allows for him to have been where he had and hadn't before. Yes, he was at the way station, and went under the mountains; but he also didn't. The paradox is negated or resolved by him being pulled by Roland through the door.
    thanks for saying what i meant in a coherent way, and +1 for using schroedinger's cat in your example

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    Roont Brice has much to be proud of Brice has much to be proud of Brice has much to be proud of Brice has much to be proud of Brice has much to be proud of Brice has much to be proud of Brice has much to be proud of Brice has much to be proud of Brice's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by R_of_G View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Brice View Post
    When he reentered Roland's world it allowed for him to have been at the way station and to have been killed by Roland. It is the moment of discovery. Before that it is Shroedinger's cat both alive and dead at the same time and then upon his reentry into roland's world it allows for him to have been where he had and hadn't before. Yes, he was at the way station, and went under the mountains; but he also didn't. The paradox is negated or resolved by him being pulled by Roland through the door.
    thanks for saying what i meant in a coherent way, and +1 for using schroedinger's cat in your example

    Thank you Jayson!

    Edit: Oops! And I misspelled Schroedinger. Oh well, I'm gonna' write that one off to working all night.
    The Awesomest fled across the desert and The Awesomer followed.

    If you rescue me
    I’ll be your friend forever


    I wish that I could write fiction, but that seems almost an impossibility. -howard phillips lovecraft (1915)



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