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Thread: The nature of the Rose *hard spoilers*

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    damned and saved Letti will become famous soon enough Letti's Avatar

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    :radioactive: The nature of the Rose *hard spoilers*

    *Big Spoilers all around*

    *Big Spoilers all around*

    *Big Spoilers all around*


    I am rereading WoC these days and the more I read about the rose and how the ka-tet wants to protect it the more I am confused and amazed...

    So...
    what is the rose in fact? What do you think? What would happen if anyone could ruin it? How would it be possible at all?
    Some people say the Dark Tower wasn't in danger at all do you say the same about the rose as well?

    And why is it so important who owns the vacant lot where it grows? I mean is that piece of paper so important? The men of Red couldn't hurt it just if they owned that field? Or how does it work?
    Because in my mind those pieces of paper aren't so important when we talk about the universe.... how can be the ownership so important?

    I feel there are many questions around the Rose.

    Roland would have understood.

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    Big Coffin Hunter jayson is on a distinguished road

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    Good one Letti. Let's see if I can take a stab at it. I think the Rose IS the Dark Tower, or at least it's placeholder on Stephen King's level of the Tower. Remember Roland saying "two, there are two hubs of existence." As far as its saftey, I think the legal contracts were a bit of a cheat. I agree with you that it seems unlikely that if the Red wanted to try to destroy it that a piece of paper would stop them. I'm not sure how it all works in King's mind that a contract between Calvin and Tet could just call off the dogs against the Rose, but apparently that;s what he wants us to believe. I'm not altogether sure the Rose could be destroyed, or plowed under. It seems to be able to take care of itself. All I know is, the flower IS the Tower. Some worlds in the multiverse are so small they are inside that Rose and I think Roland's just might be one of them.

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    damned and saved Letti will become famous soon enough Letti's Avatar

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    But why did Roland just visit the rose in this case?

    It's good to know that I am not the only one who doesn't really get the contract part...

    Roland would have understood.

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    Big Coffin Hunter jayson is on a distinguished road

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    Quote Originally Posted by Letti View Post
    But why did Roland just visit the rose in this case?

    It's good to know that I am not the only one who doesn't really get the contract part...
    I think the only version of the Tower Roland can enter is the one in End-World, his own world. I think his seeing the Rose was somehwat a reminder to him of the "size vision" given to him at the Palaver with the Man in Black at the end of DT-1, to show him that inside something as small as that Rose there could be millions of worlds. Also, he had to go to the Tower itself bc that's where the CK was and he had to be stopped.

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    damned and saved Letti will become famous soon enough Letti's Avatar

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    But he himself said that the Rose might be a door to the Tower... to the top of the Tower.
    Why didn't he give it a try? I know he didn't have a lot of time...

    Roland would have understood.

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    Big Coffin Hunter jayson is on a distinguished road

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    Quote Originally Posted by Letti View Post
    But he himself said that the Rose might be a door to the Tower... to the top of the Tower.
    Why didn't he give it a try? I know he didn't have a lot of time...
    i think that maybe:

    (a) he thought it was a door to the Tower but maybe not how to open it, or

    (b) he was just wrong about what it really was, that it wasn't a door, but a version of the Tower itself

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    damned and saved Letti will become famous soon enough Letti's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by R_of_G View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Letti View Post
    But he himself said that the Rose might be a door to the Tower... to the top of the Tower.
    Why didn't he give it a try? I know he didn't have a lot of time...
    i think that maybe:

    (a) he thought it was a door to the Tower but maybe not how to open it, or

    (b) he was just wrong about what it really was, that it wasn't a door, but a version of the Tower itself
    a - Roland is not that type of man who gives up things because he doesn't know "how to".

    b - Still he couldn't have been sure about it so maybe it would have been worth a try.

    Roland would have understood.

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    Big Coffin Hunter jayson is on a distinguished road

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    i agree with you, although maybe he did know right away upon seeing it that it wasn't a door, but our worlds' placeholder for the Tower itself. I don't know for sure. you are right though, if he did think it was any kind of door he seems the kind to give it a try.

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    damned and saved Letti will become famous soon enough Letti's Avatar

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    And could anybody hurt it anyhow? What do you think?

    Roland would have understood.

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    Big Coffin Hunter jayson is on a distinguished road

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    That is where I am very unclear. I know Roland and crew seemed to think it could be hurt. I don't think a person could hurt it, but perhaps a machine like in Eddie's dream of the bulldozer. A bulldozer could be to the Rose what Breakers are to the Beams of the Tower, and all the worlds in it would be destroyed or merged, or something else bad.

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    Michael Jackson KO1 is on a distinguished road KO1's Avatar

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    My theory of the rose is that it is the representation of the tower in the keystone reality. Further if you pictured all the realities in lets say a multiverse being stacked on oneanother, the keystone world would be the top slice, while Rolands world would be the bottom.

    Since events in the keystone world are set and there are no do overs so to speak this theory makes sense, at least to me. This also goes to partially explain why one can only enter the tower from Rolands world, al it is the base world, or the bottom world, and where would a door to the tower be but at the bottom.

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    Big Coffin Hunter jayson is on a distinguished road

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    Quote Originally Posted by KO1 View Post
    My theory of the rose is that it is the representation of the tower in the keystone reality. Further if you pictured all the realities in lets say a multiverse being stacked on oneanother, the keystone world would be the top slice, while Rolands world would be the bottom.

    Since events in the keystone world are set and there are no do overs so to speak this theory makes sense, at least to me. This also goes to partially explain why one can only enter the tower from Rolands world, al it is the base world, or the bottom world, and where would a door to the tower be but at the bottom.
    i like it metaphorically. almost as if the tower is the root of all and the rose is the flowering of the multiverse.

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    damned and saved Letti will become famous soon enough Letti's Avatar

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    I don't think machines could hurt it... maybe breakers... but I am not sure about that, either. However I guess we can't be sure about anything here.
    Maybe the more our world moves on the more fragile the rose becomes. And if our world slips into the dark... the rose can be picked off by a simple weak human hand.

    Was the contract something Roland was just wasting his time with? Do you say that?

    Roland would have understood.

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    Michael Jackson KO1 is on a distinguished road KO1's Avatar

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    In simpliest terms I think the rose was in danger. The contract things makes sense in some terms. If one owns the lot its easier to protect it. Further if one owns the lot, it would easier to devote the time and energy to destroy it.

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    damned and saved Letti will become famous soon enough Letti's Avatar

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    Why is it easier with the contrect?
    Sorry if I am picky... I am just interested in your view, K01.

    Roland would have understood.

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    Michael Jackson KO1 is on a distinguished road KO1's Avatar

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    I don't think The rose could just be plucked or bulldozed. Look at the time and energy it took to break beams alone, and if the rose truly represents the tower, it would be an entirely different undertaking than the beams. Owning the lot would allow either side to basically set up shop at the site to either protect it, or in the case of the red destroy it.

  17. #17
    Big Coffin Hunter jayson is on a distinguished road

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    i see what you are saying KO1. It's about access. The owner of the Lot is at an advantage by being able to keep others away from the Rose and thus have more time to do whatever it is they want to do to it.

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    damned and saved Letti will become famous soon enough Letti's Avatar

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    I might sound retarded but I am not able to see why a piece of paper that could be burnt or eaten or anything could help to destroy the rose... sorry.

    Roland would have understood.

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    damned and saved Letti will become famous soon enough Letti's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by R_of_G View Post
    i see what you are saying KO1. It's about access. The owner of the Lot is at an advantage by being able to keep others away from the Rose and thus have more time to do whatever it is they want to do to it.
    Okay, Roland and his tet bought the lot.
    And?
    What could he have done if anyone had appeared there with their men to destroy it? They wouldn't have known about it at all...
    And as I see we all agree that the rose can't be hurt by such things as axes or stuff like that.

    Roland would have understood.

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    Michael Jackson KO1 is on a distinguished road KO1's Avatar

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    But by that logic then what of Sai King. After all, if he didn't write certain words on other pieces of paper then the the end result would have been the same.

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    damned and saved Letti will become famous soon enough Letti's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by KO1 View Post
    But by that logic then what of Sai King. After all, if he didn't write certain words on other pieces of paper then the the end result would have been the same.
    Yes, but those words had certain messages and after reading it just once (ownership or keeping them didn't come to the view at all) those pieces of paper were no more but some white dead wood.

    Roland would have understood.

  22. #22
    Big Coffin Hunter jayson is on a distinguished road

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    Quote Originally Posted by Letti View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by R_of_G View Post
    i see what you are saying KO1. It's about access. The owner of the Lot is at an advantage by being able to keep others away from the Rose and thus have more time to do whatever it is they want to do to it.
    Okay, Roland and his tet bought the lot.
    And?
    What could he have done if anyone had appeared there with their men to destroy it? They wouldn't have known about it at all...
    And as I see we all agree that the rose can't be hurt by such things as axes or stuff like that.
    i dont think the rose can be hurt by human beings. like the roses in the can-ka-no-rey, it can protect itself from people.

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    Michael Jackson KO1 is on a distinguished road KO1's Avatar

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    That was more of a joke than anything else.

    In simpliest terms its not the piece of paper that matters, but the legal principles that are enacted by the signing of it. Once either side had legal ownership of the lot they now had access to the rose to either protect it or begin whatever actions would be necessary to destroy it.

    For example in the case of the beams, it took a very long time to destroy even a single beam. So how long would it take to destroy the representation of the tower itself then. I believe it would have taken a very long time indeed. By owning the lot they would have had all the time in the world to complete their task. Time they would not have had had others owned it.

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    damned and saved Letti will become famous soon enough Letti's Avatar

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    I wouldn't like to be stubborn so I will think of it, K01.
    Thank you for sharing your thoughts with us.
    I'll come back later to share mine.

    Roland would have understood.

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    Michael Jackson KO1 is on a distinguished road KO1's Avatar

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    I don't think your stubborn, you just have an opinion, one that differs from mine.

    Nothing wrong with that.

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