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Thread: Gunslingers - discussion of their roles, social positions and functions

  1. #51
    Traveler matt g is on a distinguished road

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    Hi- my first post...
    Regarding the impression as for us being the great old ones... DT1 gives off the impression, what with abandoned technology that was ancient to Roland & the rest of mid-world, that we were the past, the great old ones. It's not inconcieveable to make this assumption with what we are given at that point. I had thought that the stories must take place in our far future until later books revealed the holes in the multi-verse, etc. I was a bit dissapointed with multiple worlds instead of far future at first, but i got over it as read DT related books and began connecting the dots.

  2. #52
    Super Saiyan Mark is on a distinguished road Mark's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by MonteGss View Post

    Any guess as to what they were called before?
    Maybe, Jedi?
    I always pictured them as Jedi-like figures myself.
    2:45 am- 11th February 2008- I Finished The Dark Tower

  3. #53
    Gunslinger Apprentice BillyxRansom is on a distinguished road

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    Default Roland's gunslinger logic *SPOILERS

    Is his ability to think so critically a matter of him simply being a gunslinger? Or does his age have to do with it, being that he's possibly thousands of years old? (I've not finished the series yet; I've read spoilers--I'm so bad! )

    Let's say there were other people who could live that long, but are not gunslingers. Would they have the same ability to be such a quick and intelligent thinker? Is that solely a gunslinger's trait, or does his age factor in, being that he's been around WELL long enough to experience everything (more than once--literally!).

  4. #54
    Big Coffin Hunter jayson is on a distinguished road

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    Can't it be both?

    Certainly his critical thinking is partially a result of his Gunslinger training and his actions as a Gunslinger, but that does not discount his experience as a factor as well. It's not as if the day he earned his guns that a switch was flipped in his mind enabling strictly logical and critical thought all the time. It was something which was honed as he experienced the many things he experienced.

  5. #55
    West Coast sarah is on a distinguished road sarah's Avatar

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    also, you might have a different point of view about it after you finish the series. Where are you at in your reading now?



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  6. #56
    damned and saved Letti will become famous soon enough Letti's Avatar

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    He is a gunslinger (and what a gunslinger) because he is who he is and he is who he is because he is a gunslinger. I know it sounds quite stupid and fake-wise (it is) but Roland's peronsality and history are way too complex to give a short answer to your question so I had write that thing above.
    Anyway I don't think you need to be an old gunslinger to be a such a quick and intelligent thinker but of course age can help.

    If I were in your shoes I would read very quickly and I would avoid this place until I finish the series.
    We try to make this place as safe as possible for everyone but it's not easy. Spoilers are everywhere.

    Roland would have understood.

  7. #57
    Gunslinger Apprentice Harrald is on a distinguished road Harrald's Avatar

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    I avoided any and every DT website and anything to do with the series until I finished the last page of the last book.

    Letti is correct, you should finish the books before visiting any DT sites. Then you'll have more questions and a strong desire to re-read the series.


    Good luck
    Insert witty comment here.

  8. #58
    Gunslinger Apprentice BillyxRansom is on a distinguished road

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    Quote Originally Posted by maerlyn View Post
    also, you might have a different point of view about it after you finish the series. Where are you at in your reading now?
    Half way through Wolves. *blush*

  9. #59
    Constant Reader Darkthoughts has a spectacular aura about Darkthoughts has a spectacular aura about Darkthoughts has a spectacular aura about Darkthoughts's Avatar

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    I've merged Matt's thread with Letti's "Gunslingers - who are they for you?" thread, to create a place for discussing all aspects of being a gunslinger.

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    the new Mr. Amy Pond! Mordred Deschain is on a distinguished road Mordred Deschain's Avatar

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    Loves it when Lisa "merges" things together.


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    Gunslinger Apprentice The Cosmic Geek is on a distinguished road

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    I'm still new to the books, just finished Drawing of the Three today actually and start Wastelands Monday when back at work, but, I've kind of thought that the Gunslingers were sort of like the Jedi's in Star Wars in a way.

    Is that kind of close?

  12. #62
    damned and saved Letti will become famous soon enough Letti's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Cosmic Geek View Post
    I'm still new to the books, just finished Drawing of the Three today actually and start Wastelands Monday when back at work, but, I've kind of thought that the Gunslingers were sort of like the Jedi's in Star Wars in a way.

    Is that kind of close?
    I can understand why you feel this way but I see them quite different. The way they live... their rules... their weapons... their studies...
    Let's see what the others think.

    Roland would have understood.

  13. #63
    Along the Path of the Beam Matt of Gilead is on a distinguished road

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Cosmic Geek View Post
    I'm still new to the books, just finished Drawing of the Three today actually and start Wastelands Monday when back at work, but, I've kind of thought that the Gunslingers were sort of like the Jedi's in Star Wars in a way.

    Is that kind of close?
    That is actually very close to the way Roland describes them (and you'll see more of that in DT3, if you haven't already).

    To address Letti's points:

    By "the way they live," are you referring to their training, or to their behavior?

    Their rules are to uphold justice. This is where they are most similar to Jedi.

    Their weapons may be different, but the way they use them is similar. With the exception, of course, that gunslingers can attack, while Jedi are never supposed to initiate combat.

    Their studies are both very broad and anecdotal, at least from what we see of either.

    The biggest difference, though, is that while many gunslingers may have been Jedi, precious few Jedi were gunslingers. (Alain had jedi powers, and while it was noteworthy, it wasn't incredible. On the other hand, people didn't know what to make of Mara Jade).

  14. #64
    Banned obscurejude is on a distinguished road

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    The Jedi were probably more familiar with "the touch" because they were forced to be celibate.

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    Big Coffin Hunter jayson is on a distinguished road

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    Does that explain the saber versus gun thing as well?

  16. #66
    The Tenant Jean has much to be proud of Jean has much to be proud of Jean has much to be proud of Jean has much to be proud of Jean has much to be proud of Jean has much to be proud of Jean has much to be proud of Jean has much to be proud of Jean has much to be proud of Jean has much to be proud of Jean's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by Matt of Gilead View Post
    Their rules are to uphold justice. This is where they are most similar to Jedi.

    Their weapons may be different, but the way they use them is similar. With the exception, of course, that gunslingers can attack, while Jedi are never supposed to initiate combat.
    Good point and one that we shouldn't lose sight of. By their very nature and the nature of their schooling, gunslingers are trained to be ruthless.

    In Tull for instance, we discuss at length how inhumane Roland appears to kill the entire town, but if you consider the way in which the gunslingers are trained, it's no surprise. In the comic backstories we learn that potential gunslingers are taken from their families aged 6, to live in the gunslinger barracks with only Cort, Vannay and the other apprentices for company. Having your comfort and security taken from you at such a young age would seriously affect your ability to empathise and interact emotionally with other people.

    In the Gunslinger Born #3, in telling of the deeds of Arthur Eld, we learn that after the Old People's final war, Arthur Eld travelled Mid-World
    advancing the cause of safety through unity. Though an eloquent speaker, the most convincing of his arguments were made by his broad sword, called Excalibur, and the two fearsome weapons strapped to his hips.
    This recalled to me scenes of Roland in the Calla. Where, as Roland frequently pointed out, all the rigmarole and courtesey would eventually boil down to a few hard minutes of bloodshed.

  18. #68
    Army of the 12 Monkeys pathoftheturtle is a glorious beacon of light pathoftheturtle is a glorious beacon of light pathoftheturtle is a glorious beacon of light pathoftheturtle is a glorious beacon of light pathoftheturtle is a glorious beacon of light pathoftheturtle is a glorious beacon of light pathoftheturtle's Avatar

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    Default Gunslinger Society

    What is your take on the culture, values and customs in Gilead? How does it compare with societies of our world, and/or other fantasy worlds like that of The Stand?

    I'm starting this thread in Town Commons because I'd like to see more activity in the forum, and because I believe that the nature of "Mid-World" (i.e. the clear reality of supernatural forces & the known threat of monsters) was quite important to the development of the society that Roland grew up in. It's fine if moderators prefer to move or merge it, but I do hope we'll have some productive discussion on this.

    It's a pivotal subject, IMHO, for understanding what TDT means; what the series is really all about. What do you folken think?

  19. #69
    Gunslinger Apprentice lead dealer is on a distinguished road lead dealer's Avatar

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    My humbel take on the culture of the gunslingers. It is much like the late dark ages in our worlds history. Large central goverment (the king here) and his trusted govonors. With the noble knights (the gunslinger class) to enforce and protect the laws of the land. Sort of how the U.S. Marshalls are today, they serve the Gov't not the state, or in Rolands case the Barony's.
    This would be the next logical step once everyone had emerged from their post-appocoplictic "dark ages" hiding places. The begining of picking up the peices....

  20. #70
    Army of the 12 Monkeys pathoftheturtle is a glorious beacon of light pathoftheturtle is a glorious beacon of light pathoftheturtle is a glorious beacon of light pathoftheturtle is a glorious beacon of light pathoftheturtle is a glorious beacon of light pathoftheturtle is a glorious beacon of light pathoftheturtle's Avatar

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    Hm. Yeah... but, unfortunately, even that didn't last.
    Unlike The Stand, the Gilead of Wizard and Glass was many generations removed from its cataclysm. A far more powerful one, true, but it took a very long time to reach that beginning of federalism... which also collapsed.

    Apparently, though, the gunslingers had existed for quite some time. Again, the ongoing pressures of that world may justify their harsh culture. I'm asking how people feel about such a Spartan ethos; it's something which I am continually mixed on, myself.

    Another way that this topic connects to the mythological aspect of TDT is the whole issue of the Tower/lynchpin for all of the varying timelines. Early on, we readers wondered about the social elements of our Earth that turned up in the books... the idea that Mid-World was literally the same "universe" as The Stand, further into the future, seemed fairly plausible. Now, it appears more likely that it's the mystic connection that is the real, main explaination: things like those recur between timelines because all of them share a common origin and guiding center.

    And yet, it seems, nonetheless, that mankind never can get things right.

  21. #71
    Constant Reader Darkthoughts has a spectacular aura about Darkthoughts has a spectacular aura about Darkthoughts has a spectacular aura about Darkthoughts's Avatar

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    We actually have an existing thread on this topic in Gilead, it's called "Gunslingers and their role in society". I'd like to merge them, but don't mind if they merge in this forum or Gilead - up to you

  22. #72
    Army of the 12 Monkeys pathoftheturtle is a glorious beacon of light pathoftheturtle is a glorious beacon of light pathoftheturtle is a glorious beacon of light pathoftheturtle is a glorious beacon of light pathoftheturtle is a glorious beacon of light pathoftheturtle is a glorious beacon of light pathoftheturtle's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by Darkthoughts View Post
    We actually have an existing thread on this topic in Gilead, it's called "Gunslingers and their role in society". I'd like to merge them, but don't mind if they merge in this forum or Gilead - up to you
    Who? Me?

    Oh, well then, having just reviewed the thread, (and I cry your pardon for having missed it before I started a new one; it is indeed just the topic I was looking for) I say yes. Many of the loose ends are really most suited to Town Commons.

    The only thing that still gives me pause is your great, last post and its clearly more general approach.
    If we're going to talk mostly about the ethics of the gunslingers from a realistic perspective, it might go better in the other forum.
    On balance, however, I'm for just tacking this to the end of that thread, and moving it all down here. What do you say?
    Quote Originally Posted by Jean View Post
    ..gunslinger's rule was a dictatorship based on the ideology of a myth (sorry, but I can't help being reminded of Fascism. Again.)
    Right on: Absolutely key. But the question that remains is: Is that mythology, in the case of the gunslingers, false?
    Like, in the old children's movie Amazing Grace and Chuck, the scene where the president explains to the little boy that free speech is not absolute; that the constitution can't be construed to permit shouting "Fire!" in a crowed theater... and the boy asks, "But, sir, what if there is a fire?"

    Stu and Glen had a conversation with points much like yours, Jean, in The Stand, just before Mother Abigail met Nadine for the first, time.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wuducynn View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Matt View Post

    Says Eld was Arthur reborn.

    Meaning, the the whole thing basically redone is what I got from it.

    We were the great old ones...in the future for us, very advanced technology. We destroyed it, Eld and his crew rose out of the ashes.
    Where does it say Arthur Eld was Arthur reborn? As far as I could tell, and I've read the entire series many times over, it elludes to the fact that Arthur Eld is the same person as Arthur in our world. Or a twinner. ...
    Ah, but, it could be that BOTH twinners are reborn. (In other words, even if we accept the comics' version as canon, do we know for sure that that Arthur Eld never had a previous lifetime, earlier in Mid-World's history?)
    Quote Originally Posted by Wuducynn View Post
    ...Also, it points to throughout the series that our world is not the same as Tower Keystone but its twinner, so we're not The Great Old Ones but have a potential of being like them, going down the same path etc.
    So, then, there is no direct relationship between Tet Corp stopping Sombra/NCP and the Tower being saved? Maybe Eddie was just confused... :hmm:
    Last edited by pathoftheturtle; 04-03-2009 at 09:42 AM. Reason: Nothing inappropriate about Star Wars, on second thought

  23. #73
    The Tenant Jean has much to be proud of Jean has much to be proud of Jean has much to be proud of Jean has much to be proud of Jean has much to be proud of Jean has much to be proud of Jean has much to be proud of Jean has much to be proud of Jean has much to be proud of Jean has much to be proud of Jean's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by pathoftheturtle View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Jean View Post
    ..gunslinger's rule was a dictatorship based on the ideology of a myth (sorry, but I can't help being reminded of Fascism. Again.)
    Right on: Absolutely key. But the question that remains is: Is that mythology, in the case of the gunslingers, false?
    Like, in the old children's movie Amazing Grace and Chuck, the scene where the president explains to the little boy that free speech is not absolute; that the constitution can't be construed to permit shouting "Fire!" in a crowed theater... and the boy asks, "But, sir, what if there is a fire?"

    Stu and Glen had a conversation with points much like yours, Jean, in The Stand, just before Mother Abigail met Nadine for the first, time.
    I see your point. The thing is, I don't think it matters whether or not the mythology is true or false. It's like justifying the marauding with it being wartime: the line has to be drawn somewhere; in the cycle of wrongs-retribution-revenge someone has to break the vicious circle, and in the harshest of worlds there must be a system of beliefs that rises above mere survival. My problem with the gunslgers is that their whole ideology doesn't leave any place for anything higher than, or different to, their values.

    (One can constantly keep the theater smoldering, to justify the existence of those who shout "Fire" - and the elite of firefighters who can do with the rest of the audience as they please.)

    You can do anything with a bayonet except sit on it. (ascribed to Talleyrand and many others)

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  24. #74
    Big Coffin Hunter jayson is on a distinguished road

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    Quote Originally Posted by pathoftheturtle View Post
    Like, in the old children's movie Amazing Grace and Chuck, the scene where the president explains to the little boy that free speech is not absolute; that the constitution can't be construed to permit shouting "Fire!" in a crowed theater... and the boy asks, "But, sir, what if there is a fire?"
    For me, the point is that even should there be an actual fire, simply yelling "fire" might not be the best way to get people out of the theatre. There are other ways to alert people and attempt a safe egress from the burning building that might avoid panic and trampling.

  25. #75
    The Tenant Jean has much to be proud of Jean has much to be proud of Jean has much to be proud of Jean has much to be proud of Jean has much to be proud of Jean has much to be proud of Jean has much to be proud of Jean has much to be proud of Jean has much to be proud of Jean has much to be proud of Jean's Avatar

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    which perfectly sums up what I was trying to say in my previous post

    Ask not what bears can do for you, but what you can do for bears. (razz)
    When one is in agreement with bears one is always correct. (mae)

    bears are back!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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