Donate To Keep The Site Ad Free
+ Reply to Thread
Page 1 of 3 1 2 3 LastLast
Results 1 to 25 of 59

Thread: Doubleday gutter code theory

  1. #1
    Owner Randall Flagg is loved more than Jesus Randall Flagg is loved more than Jesus Randall Flagg is loved more than Jesus Randall Flagg is loved more than Jesus Randall Flagg is loved more than Jesus Randall Flagg is loved more than Jesus Randall Flagg is loved more than Jesus Randall Flagg is loved more than Jesus Randall Flagg is loved more than Jesus Randall Flagg is loved more than Jesus Randall Flagg is loved more than Jesus Randall Flagg's Avatar

    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    North of "The Claw" & Patrick, East of Chad, RIP Bill Bender
    Posts
    40,428
    My Mood
    Pensive
    Country
    Country Flag
    Gender
    Gender

    Default Doubleday gutter code theory

    This was discussed elsewhere quite a bit ago, but just recently came up here.

    Doubleday Gutter code theory:
    Hypothesis- The letter in the Doubleday gutter code indicates the year the book was PRINTED. The number is the week of the year the printing was done.
    Keep in mind a book could be printed during the last several weeks of a calendar year but not be released until several weeks later and thus be released in a different year than the printing occurred.
    (This is for 1st edition 1st printings)
    Carrie-------- Released in 1974. P6 gutter code 4=P. Printed the 6th week of 1974.
    'Salem's Lot-Released in 1975. Q37 gutter code 5=Q Printed the 37th week of 1975.
    The Shining RELEASED in 1977. Gutter code R49. 6=R Printed the 49th week of 1976.
    Night Shift RELEASED in 1978. Gutter code S52. 7=S Printed the 52nd week of 1977.
    The Stand released 1978. Gutter code T39. 8=T Printed the 39th week of 1978.
    Pet Semetary released 1983. Gutter code Y38 3=Y Printed the 38th week of 1983.



    According to Hill House:



    QUOTE
    Early 1977 saw the publication of King's third novel, The Shining.


    That would seem to fit with my theory of the book being printed in early December of 1976(Assuming a M-F work schedule it would have been the week 12/6/76-12/10/76).
    Last edited by Randall Flagg; 01-22-2013 at 01:37 PM.

  2. #2
    Servant of Gan e_taylor will become famous soon enough e_taylor's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Location
    London, Ontario, Canada
    Posts
    1,752
    Country
    Country Flag
    Gender
    Gender

    Default

    What system are you using to determine that 4 indicates p, 5 indicates q, etc...?

  3. #3
    Owner Randall Flagg is loved more than Jesus Randall Flagg is loved more than Jesus Randall Flagg is loved more than Jesus Randall Flagg is loved more than Jesus Randall Flagg is loved more than Jesus Randall Flagg is loved more than Jesus Randall Flagg is loved more than Jesus Randall Flagg is loved more than Jesus Randall Flagg is loved more than Jesus Randall Flagg is loved more than Jesus Randall Flagg is loved more than Jesus Randall Flagg's Avatar

    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    North of "The Claw" & Patrick, East of Chad, RIP Bill Bender
    Posts
    40,428
    My Mood
    Pensive
    Country
    Country Flag
    Gender
    Gender

    Default

    Deduction that P =1974, Q=1975, R=1976, based upon the year the books were published. Note The Shining was published in early 1977, but the physical printing of the book occurred in week 49 of 1976, thus the R49 gutter code it has.

  4. #4
    Roont Brice has much to be proud of Brice has much to be proud of Brice has much to be proud of Brice has much to be proud of Brice has much to be proud of Brice has much to be proud of Brice has much to be proud of Brice has much to be proud of Brice has much to be proud of Brice's Avatar

    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    Lettiland
    Posts
    29,625
    My Mood
    Aggressive
    Country
    Country Flag

    Default

    Thank you for posting this over here Jerome.
    The Awesomest fled across the desert and The Awesomer followed.

    If you rescue me
    I’ll be your friend forever


    I wish that I could write fiction, but that seems almost an impossibility. -howard phillips lovecraft (1915)



  5. #5
    Servant of Gan e_taylor will become famous soon enough e_taylor's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Location
    London, Ontario, Canada
    Posts
    1,752
    Country
    Country Flag
    Gender
    Gender

    Default

    Okay, I see it now, once you assume the first one, the pattern follows. Very cool, is there any way to ask someone from Doubleday if they have old production schedules?

  6. #6
    Goldmember NeedfulKings is just really nice NeedfulKings is just really nice NeedfulKings is just really nice NeedfulKings is just really nice NeedfulKings's Avatar

    Join Date
    May 2007
    Posts
    2,887
    Country
    Country Flag
    Gender
    Gender

    Default

    So, a Stand with T51 in the gutter would likely have been printed the same year as the First Edition? It's price-clipped, but is definitely a trade edition with the quarter cloth binding in black. It's in really good condition, and since I picked it up at a library sale for $1, I think it's a good deal.


  7. #7
    Owner Randall Flagg is loved more than Jesus Randall Flagg is loved more than Jesus Randall Flagg is loved more than Jesus Randall Flagg is loved more than Jesus Randall Flagg is loved more than Jesus Randall Flagg is loved more than Jesus Randall Flagg is loved more than Jesus Randall Flagg is loved more than Jesus Randall Flagg is loved more than Jesus Randall Flagg is loved more than Jesus Randall Flagg is loved more than Jesus Randall Flagg's Avatar

    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    North of "The Claw" & Patrick, East of Chad, RIP Bill Bender
    Posts
    40,428
    My Mood
    Pensive
    Country
    Country Flag
    Gender
    Gender

    Default

    In checking Pet Semetary, I think the previous assertion that the gutter code is Y3 is incorrect. If one opens the book a bit, the code is Y38. That would much better fit with the book being released in late 1983. My understanding is that a "Promotional Copy-not for sale" was offered in Publishers weekly, June 10, 1983. This would precede the books official release, and therefore actual printing of the book likely occurred the 38th week of 1983, not the 3rd week.
    Every copy I have, whether it be the 1982 Tabitha King error or the 2nd state DJ, the book itself has the Y38 gutter code.
    Anyone else care to check and confirm or deny?
    Last edited by Randall Flagg; 07-08-2008 at 06:51 AM.

  8. #8
    Goldmember NeedfulKings is just really nice NeedfulKings is just really nice NeedfulKings is just really nice NeedfulKings is just really nice NeedfulKings's Avatar

    Join Date
    May 2007
    Posts
    2,887
    Country
    Country Flag
    Gender
    Gender

    Default

    My copy is pretty tight, but I did at first just see the Y3. As I pried a tiny bit, I see that there IS another digit and it does look like an 8.

    So, I'll say that mine is a Y38 and if the year of Caretakers is 1982.

  9. #9
    Goldmember NeedfulKings is just really nice NeedfulKings is just really nice NeedfulKings is just really nice NeedfulKings is just really nice NeedfulKings's Avatar

    Join Date
    May 2007
    Posts
    2,887
    Country
    Country Flag
    Gender
    Gender

    Default

    Assuming that there is not a book with all First Edition points that has an actual Y3 (or 31,32,33,etc.) in it, I think that those who publish "How To" lists for identifying true first editions could use the Y3 "or" Y38, couldn't they? That way people who don't want to pry their books open will still know it's a first.

  10. #10
    Goldmember Mr. Rabbit Trick has a brilliant future Mr. Rabbit Trick has a brilliant future Mr. Rabbit Trick has a brilliant future Mr. Rabbit Trick has a brilliant future Mr. Rabbit Trick has a brilliant future Mr. Rabbit Trick has a brilliant future Mr. Rabbit Trick has a brilliant future Mr. Rabbit Trick has a brilliant future Mr. Rabbit Trick has a brilliant future Mr. Rabbit Trick has a brilliant future Mr. Rabbit Trick has a brilliant future

    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Scotland
    Posts
    6,896
    Country
    Country Flag
    Gender
    Gender

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by NeedfulKings View Post

    So, I'll say that mine is a Y38 and if the year of Caretakers is 1982.
    My 1982 Caretakers is a Y38 as well.

  11. #11
    Owner Randall Flagg is loved more than Jesus Randall Flagg is loved more than Jesus Randall Flagg is loved more than Jesus Randall Flagg is loved more than Jesus Randall Flagg is loved more than Jesus Randall Flagg is loved more than Jesus Randall Flagg is loved more than Jesus Randall Flagg is loved more than Jesus Randall Flagg is loved more than Jesus Randall Flagg is loved more than Jesus Randall Flagg is loved more than Jesus Randall Flagg's Avatar

    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    North of "The Claw" & Patrick, East of Chad, RIP Bill Bender
    Posts
    40,428
    My Mood
    Pensive
    Country
    Country Flag
    Gender
    Gender

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by NeedfulKings View Post
    Assuming that there is not a book with all First Edition points that has an actual Y3 (or 31,32,33,etc.) in it, I think that those who publish "How To" lists for identifying true first editions could use the Y3 "or" Y38, couldn't they? That way people who don't want to pry their books open will still know it's a first.
    I was hoping Hutch and Bev Vincent (Chart on StephenKing.com) would chime in as they both have respected "How to Identify a 1st Edition" charts, which if I am correct, should be changed.

  12. #12
    Goldmember carlosdetweiller has a reputation beyond repute carlosdetweiller has a reputation beyond repute carlosdetweiller has a reputation beyond repute carlosdetweiller has a reputation beyond repute carlosdetweiller has a reputation beyond repute carlosdetweiller has a reputation beyond repute carlosdetweiller has a reputation beyond repute carlosdetweiller has a reputation beyond repute carlosdetweiller has a reputation beyond repute carlosdetweiller has a reputation beyond repute carlosdetweiller has a reputation beyond repute

    Join Date
    May 2007
    Posts
    7,531

    Default

    I suppose I am in the minority (or perhaps a group of one), but I think there is way too much emphasis placed on these codes. For me, especially when talking about King's Doubleday editions, the sole criterion for identifying a first edition are the words "First Edition" stated on the copyright page. If "First Edition" isn't there then it isn't a first edition.

    If it makes you feel better to look for the "Q37" on the last page of 'SALEM'S LOT or "P6" on the last page of CARRIE then by all means do so but I think that they will ALWAYS be there if the words "First Edition" are on the copyright page.

    Has anyone ever seen a King book published by Doubleday with "First Edition" on the copyright page that had any code other than the ones that all these guides say identify a first printing? I don't think I have ever seen one.

    Or to put it another way, have you ever looked at a copy of 'SALEM'S LOT, seen that it clearly stated "First Edition" on the copyright page and then turned to the last page and seen ANY OTHER code than "Q37"?

  13. #13
    Gunslinger Apprentice Hutch will become famous soon enough Hutch's Avatar

    Join Date
    May 2007
    Posts
    407
    Country
    Country Flag

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by carlosdetweiller View Post
    I suppose I am in the minority (or

    Or to put it another way, have you ever looked at a copy of 'SALEM'S LOT, seen that it clearly stated "First Edition" on the copyright page and then turned to the last page and seen ANY OTHER code than "Q37"?
    Yes I have. And it was a 'Salem's Lot. Some a**hole tried to pull the wool over someones eyes. They tipped in a first edition copyright page into a later print book and didn't know enough to do the same to the code page. But that's a whole other " can of worms ". I think the code simply offers additional security.

  14. #14
    Word Slinger Bev Vincent has a brilliant future Bev Vincent has a brilliant future Bev Vincent has a brilliant future Bev Vincent has a brilliant future Bev Vincent has a brilliant future Bev Vincent has a brilliant future Bev Vincent has a brilliant future Bev Vincent has a brilliant future Bev Vincent has a brilliant future Bev Vincent has a brilliant future Bev Vincent has a brilliant future Bev Vincent's Avatar

    Join Date
    May 2007
    Posts
    7,058

    Default

    I agree that the gutter code really says Y38 and that people have overlooked that because it is trapped in the binding on most copies. I will make note of this the next time I update the guide on King's web site, which should be fairly soon.

  15. #15
    Owner Randall Flagg is loved more than Jesus Randall Flagg is loved more than Jesus Randall Flagg is loved more than Jesus Randall Flagg is loved more than Jesus Randall Flagg is loved more than Jesus Randall Flagg is loved more than Jesus Randall Flagg is loved more than Jesus Randall Flagg is loved more than Jesus Randall Flagg is loved more than Jesus Randall Flagg is loved more than Jesus Randall Flagg is loved more than Jesus Randall Flagg's Avatar

    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    North of "The Claw" & Patrick, East of Chad, RIP Bill Bender
    Posts
    40,428
    My Mood
    Pensive
    Country
    Country Flag
    Gender
    Gender

    Default

    That may have been my book Hutch. I believe I sent you a The Shining, where someone (I am sure it was the guy who sold it to me years ago) had pasted in a First edition CR page, but had not-as it wasn't common knowledge 18-20 years ago, corrected the gutter code. I was a novice then and not only paid good money for the book, but also bought it with a price clipped DJ.
    Live and learn.

  16. #16
    Gunslinger Apprentice Hutch will become famous soon enough Hutch's Avatar

    Join Date
    May 2007
    Posts
    407
    Country
    Country Flag

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Randall Flagg View Post
    That may have been my book Hutch. I believe I sent you a The Shining, where someone (I am sure it was the guy who sold it to me years ago) had pasted in a First edition CR page, but had not-as it wasn't common knowledge 18-20 years ago, corrected the gutter code. I was a novice then and not only paid good money for the book, but also bought it with a price clipped DJ.
    Live and learn.
    thanks for reminding me about the book you had. I had forgotten all about it. I think you asked me to look at it. ... But no there was a 'Salem's about 4 years ago as well. So now I've seen at least two of these mis-matched modified books.

  17. #17
    Owner Randall Flagg is loved more than Jesus Randall Flagg is loved more than Jesus Randall Flagg is loved more than Jesus Randall Flagg is loved more than Jesus Randall Flagg is loved more than Jesus Randall Flagg is loved more than Jesus Randall Flagg is loved more than Jesus Randall Flagg is loved more than Jesus Randall Flagg is loved more than Jesus Randall Flagg is loved more than Jesus Randall Flagg is loved more than Jesus Randall Flagg's Avatar

    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    North of "The Claw" & Patrick, East of Chad, RIP Bill Bender
    Posts
    40,428
    My Mood
    Pensive
    Country
    Country Flag
    Gender
    Gender

    Default

    At least two forgeries you have seen. Wouldn't suprise me if they both came from the dealer I bought mine from.
    He actually did (on mine), a decent, really a very good job of gluing the CR page in. Had it not been for the incorrect gutter code, I would have never suspected. Who knows, he could be today not only gluing in a different CR page, but also the gutter code page.
    Hutch, you looked at mine and he had actually "bleached" out what was probably a library stamp. He likely found an ex library copy with the boards in bad shape an removed the CR page, putting it into a later printing-and in my case just clipping the DJ to fool me, and VOILA!

  18. #18
    Roont jhanic has a brilliant future jhanic has a brilliant future jhanic has a brilliant future jhanic has a brilliant future jhanic has a brilliant future jhanic has a brilliant future jhanic has a brilliant future jhanic has a brilliant future jhanic has a brilliant future jhanic has a brilliant future jhanic has a brilliant future jhanic's Avatar

    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    Cleveland, Ohio
    Posts
    15,760
    My Mood
    Tired
    Country
    Country Flag

    Default

    Do you have the name of that dealer? I'm sure we are all interested!

    John

  19. #19
    Goldmember carlosdetweiller has a reputation beyond repute carlosdetweiller has a reputation beyond repute carlosdetweiller has a reputation beyond repute carlosdetweiller has a reputation beyond repute carlosdetweiller has a reputation beyond repute carlosdetweiller has a reputation beyond repute carlosdetweiller has a reputation beyond repute carlosdetweiller has a reputation beyond repute carlosdetweiller has a reputation beyond repute carlosdetweiller has a reputation beyond repute carlosdetweiller has a reputation beyond repute

    Join Date
    May 2007
    Posts
    7,531

    Default

    Those are good points. I hadn't thought about fraudulently altered books. Fortunately I don't think I have ever come across one.

  20. #20
    Gunslinger Apprentice Hutch will become famous soon enough Hutch's Avatar

    Join Date
    May 2007
    Posts
    407
    Country
    Country Flag

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Randall Flagg View Post
    At least two forgeries you have seen. Wouldn't suprise me if they both came from the dealer I bought mine from.
    He actually did (on mine), a decent, really a very good job of gluing the CR page in. Had it not been for the incorrect gutter code, I would have never suspected. Who knows, he could be today not only gluing in a different CR page, but also the gutter code page.
    Hutch, you looked at mine and he had actually "bleached" out what was probably a library stamp. He likely found an ex library copy with the boards in bad shape an removed the CR page, putting it into a later printing-and in my case just clipping the DJ to fool me, and VOILA!
    I'm not sure I remember all the details. Did you actually send it to me to look at and then I sent it back with the answer?

  21. #21
    Goldmember NeedfulKings is just really nice NeedfulKings is just really nice NeedfulKings is just really nice NeedfulKings is just really nice NeedfulKings's Avatar

    Join Date
    May 2007
    Posts
    2,887
    Country
    Country Flag
    Gender
    Gender

    Default

    Quite an amazing story of fraud. The things that people will do for money. tsk tsk.

    I know that most of you are only concerned with First Editions, but I'm also glad that we have a formula for determining the age of later Doubleday printings. It's just one more piece of collecting trivia.

  22. #22
    Owner Randall Flagg is loved more than Jesus Randall Flagg is loved more than Jesus Randall Flagg is loved more than Jesus Randall Flagg is loved more than Jesus Randall Flagg is loved more than Jesus Randall Flagg is loved more than Jesus Randall Flagg is loved more than Jesus Randall Flagg is loved more than Jesus Randall Flagg is loved more than Jesus Randall Flagg is loved more than Jesus Randall Flagg is loved more than Jesus Randall Flagg's Avatar

    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    North of "The Claw" & Patrick, East of Chad, RIP Bill Bender
    Posts
    40,428
    My Mood
    Pensive
    Country
    Country Flag
    Gender
    Gender

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Hutch View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Randall Flagg View Post
    At least two forgeries you have seen. Wouldn't suprise me if they both came from the dealer I bought mine from.
    He actually did (on mine), a decent, really a very good job of gluing the CR page in. Had it not been for the incorrect gutter code, I would have never suspected. Who knows, he could be today not only gluing in a different CR page, but also the gutter code page.
    Hutch, you looked at mine and he had actually "bleached" out what was probably a library stamp. He likely found an ex library copy with the boards in bad shape an removed the CR page, putting it into a later printing-and in my case just clipping the DJ to fool me, and VOILA!
    I'm not sure I remember all the details. Did you actually send it to me to look at and then I sent it back with the answer?
    Yes. You found exactly as I described above. we also talked a bit on the phone. This was ~3-4 years ago.

    I can not prove, but I believe the person I bought it from performed the alterations.
    Simply my "feeling".
    His name is Mark Anderson from Copperdragon Books.

  23. #23
    Other worlds Patrick has a reputation beyond repute Patrick has a reputation beyond repute Patrick has a reputation beyond repute Patrick has a reputation beyond repute Patrick has a reputation beyond repute Patrick has a reputation beyond repute Patrick has a reputation beyond repute Patrick has a reputation beyond repute Patrick has a reputation beyond repute Patrick has a reputation beyond repute Patrick has a reputation beyond repute Patrick's Avatar

    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    Northern California
    Posts
    14,732
    My Mood
    Yeehaw
    Country
    Country Flag
    Gender
    Gender

    Default

    That sucks, Jerome.

    That guy is in the Bay Area, sorry to hear his reputation is in question.
    "...that Siren which called and sang and promised so much and gave, after all, so little." ~ Ray Bradbury

  24. #24
    Owner Randall Flagg is loved more than Jesus Randall Flagg is loved more than Jesus Randall Flagg is loved more than Jesus Randall Flagg is loved more than Jesus Randall Flagg is loved more than Jesus Randall Flagg is loved more than Jesus Randall Flagg is loved more than Jesus Randall Flagg is loved more than Jesus Randall Flagg is loved more than Jesus Randall Flagg is loved more than Jesus Randall Flagg is loved more than Jesus Randall Flagg's Avatar

    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    North of "The Claw" & Patrick, East of Chad, RIP Bill Bender
    Posts
    40,428
    My Mood
    Pensive
    Country
    Country Flag
    Gender
    Gender

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Bev Vincent View Post
    I agree that the gutter code really says Y38 and that people have overlooked that because it is trapped in the binding on most copies. I will make note of this the next time I update the guide on King's web site, which should be fairly soon.
    Bev, I noticed King's site still has the Y3 code listed.

  25. #25

    Default

    Now that is some excellent work! And the best theory I've seen to date.

    Okay, I see it now, once you assume the first one, the pattern follows. Very cool, is there any way to ask someone from Doubleday if they have old production schedules?
    I already got a hold of their customer service a couple of years ago. I can't say they were extremely helpful, but for what it's worth, I'm pasting the e-mail thread below.... Although the rep's response doesn't quite jibe with this theory, their information was so limited I can't say it nessisarily contradicts it either (it's in reverse order, so you'll want to read from the bottom to top)

    =====================

    Tomas,
    We have already given you all the information at our disposal. We regret that we are not able to supply more detailed answers to all of your inquiries.
    Thank you.
    Consumer Services
    X 863809

    -----Original Message-----
    From: Krynsky, Tomas
    Sent: Wednesday, January 31, 2007 12:22 PM
    To: ecustomerservice
    Subject: RE: Stephen King Books ** CAPLAN **

    Thank you for that response. Is there any way I could get a chart or something similar that would list out what each code meant? Or even a partial list? If this is proprietary I completely understand, but it would help clear up which editions of books certain people would have.

    Also, based off this new information, would it be possible that a later printing of a book would have had the same printer code?

    For example, the original 1978 1st edition of "The Stand" by Stephen King does not have a standard number line on the copyright page to indicate what printing it is. As such the accepted way of determining a 1st edition is to look on page 823 and see if the code "T39" is there.
    Also the dustjacket should have a price of $12.95

    I assumed that this code would change with each printing, as there are other early Doubleday copies of "The Stand" floating around with other codes. But if the printer code indicates the plant and equipment is it possible that a later printing would have the same code if it was made in the same plant/machine?

    Thank you again,



    Tomas Krynsky

    -----Original Message-----
    From: ecustomerservice
    Sent: Wednesday, January 31, 2007 9:11 AM
    To: Krynsky, Tomas
    Subject: RE: Stephen King Books ** CAPLAN **

    Tomas,
    Apparently, the second time is the charm. Our go-to person is telling us that these numbers are printer codes, which have changed over the years, and they indicate which plant and which equipment were used in the production of the book.

    Consumer Services
    X 863809

    -----Original Message-----
    From: ecustomerservice
    Sent: Wednesday, January 31, 2007 11:37 AM
    To:
    Subject: RE: Stephen King Books ** CAPLAN **

    Tomas,
    We apologize for not replying to you more promptly but we are still awaiting an answer from the appropriate department here. We have sent a second e-mail to them today. Please bear with us. Thank you for your patience.

    Consumer Services
    X 863809

    -----Original Message-----
    From:
    Sent: Monday, January 29, 2007 11:30 AM
    To: ecustomerservice
    Subject: Stephen King Books ** CAPLAN **

    A visitor to your website submitted the following question/comment from the contact form on your website. Simply hit the reply button in your email client to send back your reply.

    The visitors details are:

    Name: Tomas Krynsky
    Email:
    Question/Comment:

    Hello, I had a question about your early Doubleday books, specifically early Stephen King titles such as 'Carrie', 'The Stand', etc. I collect Stephen King books, and most of the Dubleday 1st editions have a code on the gutter of the last page. P6 for Carrie, T39 for The Stand, etc.
    Later printings of these books have different codes, but they don't make much sense to me. Could you tell me what these codes mean and/or if there's an easy way to decipher them?

    Thank you in advance,
    Thanks much,




    The Collector www.stephenkingcollector.com
    --Your source for info on rare Stephen King--

+ Reply to Thread
Page 1 of 3 1 2 3 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts