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Thread: Ender's Saga by Orson Scott Card

  1. #51
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    I've read:
    ENDER'S GAME
    SPEAKER FOR THE DEAD
    XENOCIDE
    ENDER'S SHADOW
    SHADOW OF THE HEGEMON
    SHADOW PUPPETS

    I was a huge Card fan, loved his books, especially the Alvin Maker series. BUT, although I loved GAME and SPEAKER, I absolutely detested all the following Ender/Bean books I've read, and have actually quit reading Card's books. His whole style (or something) seemed to change after XENOCIDE, and with the exception of only a few of his novels after that, I just could not get into his stuff any more. Which makes me sad, because I still think he's a great writer.



    I'm sure if there is intelligent life somewhere out there in the universe, they are wise enough to stay away from us.

    And the people bowed and prayed, to the cell phone god they made...

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    Interesting. Did you read all of the novels in both the Bean and Ender sagas ? Shadow of the Giant, Ender in Exile, etc. ?
    The World Is Yours.

    Quote Originally Posted by Girlystevedave View Post
    I'm just nodding my head the whole time thinking "ok, stop now, please."

  3. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by feverishparade View Post
    Interesting. Did you read all of the novels in both the Bean and Ender sagas ? Shadow of the Giant, Ender in Exile, etc. ?
    No, SHADOW PUPPETS was the last one I read. All I remember about it is I disliked it very much and had a hard time finishing it. After that, except for a few more books, I quit reading Card entirely.

    For some unknown reason I ordered STONEFATHER from Sub Press. Didn't like it much either.
    I'm sure if there is intelligent life somewhere out there in the universe, they are wise enough to stay away from us.

    And the people bowed and prayed, to the cell phone god they made...

  4. #54
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    I've read all of the books in both the Ender and Bean story arcs and love them all. I like Bean a lot more than Ender, for the most part. However, Speaker for the Dead is probably one of my favorite sci-fi books ever. The Pequeninos are some of the most interesting and intriguing aliens ever. I think that they are the most alien aliens in sci-fi history.

    On a related note, my friend has two cats named Ender and Bean.

    I kind of hate Orson Scott Card as a person, though, and it sort of taints my love of the books. Here is why I hate him as a person, despite his being a phenomenal author:

    In 2006, one day before the 2006 midterm elections in the United States, Card wrote an opinion piece for RealClearPolitics, in which he (while being a Democrat) encouraged voters to support the Republicans.[19] In another article written for the Mormon Times, he voiced strong condemnation of any government that recognized gay marriage stating, "Regardless of law, marriage has only one definition, and any government that attempts to change it is my mortal enemy. I will act to destroy that government and bring it down..."[20] In 2009, Card became a member of the board of directors of the National Organization for Marriage, a group that seeks to prevent the legalization of same-sex marriage.[21] Card has called for laws against homosexual behavior to "remain on the books",[22] and a return to the "strong society" of pre-1960s America.
    I try to separate myself from that when I think about or read the books, but it annoys me enough that it is difficult. Luckily I read all of the books before I encountered that bit of information about him, so I at least have my first run through the books untainted by his personal and political douchebaggery.
    There's one hole in every revolution, large or small. And it's one word long.. people. No matter how big the idea they all stand under, people are small and weak and cheap and frightened. It's people that kill every revolution.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ur2ndbiggestfan View Post
    I've read:
    ENDER'S GAME
    SPEAKER FOR THE DEAD
    XENOCIDE
    ENDER'S SHADOW
    SHADOW OF THE HEGEMON
    SHADOW PUPPETS

    I was a huge Card fan, loved his books, especially the Alvin Maker series. BUT, although I loved GAME and SPEAKER, I absolutely detested all the following Ender/Bean books I've read, and have actually quit reading Card's books. His whole style (or something) seemed to change after XENOCIDE, and with the exception of only a few of his novels after that, I just could not get into his stuff any more. Which makes me sad, because I still think he's a great writer.

    I know this thread is a bit old, but I really agree with this post. There's a lot of focus on the Ender books with the movie coming out, and I find myself turning my interest to Card and his books. I just listened to some of his short stories from Maps in a Mirror. Card's earlier work is great, I love it. Starting with Children of the Mind and going forward, something changed. I can't read his newer stuff.

    And I absolutely did NOT like Bean and those stories. I stopped with Shadow Puppets. IMO the bean series and the whole 'behind the scenes' of what was going on with Ender is cheap. Card rewrote the events of those stories to make Bean look like he was pulling the strings for Ender, and that all of Ender's accomplishments were because of Bean. IMO the only reason he did that was to make more $$ off the Ender series, which should have ended with Xenocide.

    I personally don't like Mr King's political view points and his beliefs, but I try to put that aside and read his work for his work. IMO at least Card's politics don't bleed into his work like King's does. I almost don't want to read King's new stuff because it's so full of that crap. And Card is a dyed in the wool mormon. It shouldn't be a surprise what his beliefs are about those issues.

  6. #56
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    That's interesting. Although I don't know what King's politics are (and really don't care), I never notice that sort of thing in his stories, probably because I don't look for them. But that could explain in a subconcious way why I don't care for some of his later works.

    As for Card, even though I'm about as non-religious as one can get, I enjoyed his religious novels very much! I thought the stories were interesting and that's what counts the most for me - character development and a well written, entertaining yarn.
    I'm sure if there is intelligent life somewhere out there in the universe, they are wise enough to stay away from us.

    And the people bowed and prayed, to the cell phone god they made...

  7. #57
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    I think Card is less obnoxious in his religious writings than most authors, and some of his ideas are pretty interesting. Luckily he had enough sense to leave his homophobia out of the books.

    What annoys me about his later writings is how he decided John Paul and Theresa knew the whole time what their children were doing. It makes complete and utter sense, and is much more believable than "two oblivious people suddenly had three genius children who did everything under their noses," but it felt like he wrote something that didn't make sense and corrected it, instead of having it in his head the whole time. I think we should have had a hint or two in Ender's Game that they weren't complete morons. So maybe my irritation is more with the handling in Ender's Game.

    I just read First Meetings, and while the stories were somewhat interesting, I don't feel they really had a lot of purpose. I think he just wanted to get some more royalties checks.
    A lady always remembers her courtesies.

  8. #58
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    I wish he would go back to the Alvin Maker world. I found all those books truly fascinating. Card at his best.
    I'm sure if there is intelligent life somewhere out there in the universe, they are wise enough to stay away from us.

    And the people bowed and prayed, to the cell phone god they made...

  9. #59
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    Cards writing about Mormonism almost got me to convert. Almost. Lost Boys is such a good book, and he makes the family life in that book seem very nice, and very desirable. Also Folk of the Fringe and Saints were good books as well, and very 'mormon'. Then there's the Homecoming series, which I dug and devoured and then found out it was his retelling of the book of mormon. He never hits you over the head with his religion, but it's always in there somewhere.

    I never got into Alvin Maker. I read the first book and just couldn't get back into it.

    However, his best work imo is the Worthing Saga, and all the stories surrounding that tale (including the anthology Capital and Worthing Chronicle/Hot Sleep). That was one of my first non-King audio books I downloaded from Audible and I've listened to that over and over again. That book really introduced me to Card, many years ago.

    I think he just wanted to get some more royalties checks.
    Boy I couldn't agree more. IMO the reason why his writing has fallen off is he's putting it out like crazy and trying to make more $$ off his stories now that they are more well known. As I wrote above, I didn't dig him basically rewriting the whole Ender's Game events to make it all Bean who was doing the work behind the scenes. It cheapens everything he did in Ender's Game. I really liked EG and SftD, they were great books to begin with without all the rewriting and re imagining of the story.

    Two other pretty good works I dig that are also great audio books are Treason and Wyrms. I liked them when I read them, and the audio production were very entertaining.

  10. #60
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    Just a quick post to show how tastes differ:

    LOST BOYS - Excellent!
    FOLK OF THE FRINGE - So-so
    SAINTS - Pretty darn good
    HOMECOMING SERIES - Not interesting at all
    WORTHING SAGA - GREAT!
    TREASON and WORMS - Liked them both
    I'm sure if there is intelligent life somewhere out there in the universe, they are wise enough to stay away from us.

    And the people bowed and prayed, to the cell phone god they made...

  11. #61
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    I'm on book 3 of the Homecoming series and I like it, although I don't think it's as good as any of the Bean books, maybe on par with the last 3 Ender books. I differ from most people in this thread because I think the Shadow series is the best of the two, although I think Ender's Game is his best book. IDK, it just felt more relevant to me, maybe because it's more contemporary.
    "So many vows. They make you swear and swear. Defend the King, obey the King, obey your father, protect the innocent, defend the weak. But what if your father despises the King? What if the King massacres the innocent? It's too much. No matter what you do, you're forsaking one vow or another."

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    I've read all the Ender books, but haven't gotten around to the Bean series. Some of the comments above have me wondering if I should?

    I really enjoyed the Ender series, and liked him (although wasn't totally impressed with how is character ended up at the end of the saga).

    Thoughts? Should I be looking to read the bean series too?

  13. #63
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    I dislike the Bean books, but that's just my opinion. Like I said, I only liked ENDER'S GAME and SPEAKER FOR THE DEAD. Loved them, actually. But after that I totally disliked every other book I read in the series, much to my dissapointment because I wanted to like them.
    I'm sure if there is intelligent life somewhere out there in the universe, they are wise enough to stay away from us.

    And the people bowed and prayed, to the cell phone god they made...

  14. #64
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    I liked parts of the Bean series very much, while others seemed to drag/be confusing/contradict Ender's Game. So I'd say they're worth a read, but I can't positively guarantee you'll enjoy it. I did.
    A lady always remembers her courtesies.

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    I loved them, best series as a whole, imo.
    "So many vows. They make you swear and swear. Defend the King, obey the King, obey your father, protect the innocent, defend the weak. But what if your father despises the King? What if the King massacres the innocent? It's too much. No matter what you do, you're forsaking one vow or another."

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    Quote Originally Posted by John Blaze View Post
    I'm on book 3 of the Homecoming series and I like it, although I don't think it's as good as any of the Bean books, maybe on par with the last 3 Ender books. I differ from most people in this thread because I think the Shadow series is the best of the two, although I think Ender's Game is his best book. IDK, it just felt more relevant to me, maybe because it's more contemporary.
    The first 3 books are the best books in that series. IMO book 4 and 5 are weird and confusing. I devoured that series when I read it, all 5 books in one week. I really liked that series. I should put that on my audio to do list.

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    I haven't had much time to read, but I started book one Sunday morning. I'm enjoying it. Only thing that doesn't feel real to me is the level of antagonism between the brothers.
    "So many vows. They make you swear and swear. Defend the King, obey the King, obey your father, protect the innocent, defend the weak. But what if your father despises the King? What if the King massacres the innocent? It's too much. No matter what you do, you're forsaking one vow or another."

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    I'm doing a listen of EG right now. Something that struck me about Card's ideas about the internet and the discourse on the net.

    Spoiler:
    In EG and again in the 2nd Bean book, the kids are able to have these awesome discussions on the internet, and Val and Peter influence the world through their writing. When I read the 2nd Bean book, it got me interested in going on the net and having these discussions online on forums like Val and Peter and Bean do. It struck me today that Card's vision of the level of discourse on the net is completely wrong. In his theory, it's a great thing that leads people and allows people to soar and inspire others, a tool for brilliant people to influence the world. In reality, we've got things like twitter and message boards where people post pictures of their boobs.

  19. #69
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    Card's opinion of human intelligence is highly optimistic.
    I'm sure if there is intelligent life somewhere out there in the universe, they are wise enough to stay away from us.

    And the people bowed and prayed, to the cell phone god they made...

  20. #70
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    I think it's both things simultaneously.


    I'm unfamiliar with Card. I think I've read like one story by him.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ur2ndbiggestfan View Post
    Card's opinion of human intelligence is highly optimistic.
    No kiddng. I like his writing, but reading about incredibly brilliant characters in every one of his books gets boring. They're all incredible and prodigies, etc. It's a bit unrealistic, and imo that's one of the problems with the Ender series.

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    He kind of counters that by saying the Battle School is a collection of all the brilliant kids on earth, and that's who he's following. He doesn't have much of a reason to bring in the 8 billion normal or stupid people, because who would read about that?

    I also feel like he wrote his now-ridiculous interpretation of the internet as a place for intelligent discussion at a time when the internet could have evolved into that... if the world wasn't filled with trolls.
    A lady always remembers her courtesies.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ka-mai View Post
    He kind of counters that by saying the Battle School is a collection of all the brilliant kids on earth, and that's who he's following. He doesn't have much of a reason to bring in the 8 billion normal or stupid people, because who would read about that?

    I also feel like he wrote his now-ridiculous interpretation of the internet as a place for intelligent discussion at a time when the internet could have evolved into that... if the world wasn't filled with trolls.
    It's more than just the battle school. It kinda starts with Xenocide where every character suddenly is brilliant and the best at what they do. When he gets to the Bean series of books, it just gets absurd the way he creates Bean as this infant character that's incredibly brilliant and developed. I don't buy into it. Characters like that get very boring and flat out implausible, imo.

  24. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by ur2ndbiggestfan View Post
    I dislike the Bean books, but that's just my opinion. Like I said, I only liked ENDER'S GAME and SPEAKER FOR THE DEAD. Loved them, actually. But after that I totally disliked every other book I read in the series, much to my dissapointment because I wanted to like them.
    Enders Game was excellent and I quickly added the series to my priority read list until hearing the disappointing reviews of the other books. I dont want to ruin the Enders Game experience so wont be reading the others. But I am interested to see how they translate the book into the upcoming movie. I think Harrison Ford is a perfect choice for Graff, but I question the choice for Ender.

    http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1731141/

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    Yeah, I'm not thrilled with Ender (just looking at that kid, I want to punch him in the face) but Graff, Valentine, Mazer and Anderson look great. I also love that the kids are actually multiracial, I expected them to whitewash it.

    I think it's terribly unfair this movie is over a year away.
    A lady always remembers her courtesies.

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