...I'm only halfway through the first Sandman hardcover. ...
Oh, you're in for a treat.
Originally Posted by CyberGhostface
...it just depends on how its delivered from the writer, I suppose.
I wouldn't mind if Flagg was depicted as being pure evil, just not to change past mythology for the worse to do so. With Flagg, I've really grown to appreciate his human origin for four years now and dwell on it, so that's one of the reasons why the new origin bothered me. ...
I can respect that. This is one of the drawbacks of King's technique. I love his style, but it IS kind of crappy, how his indecision can sometimes pull the rug out from under us.
Originally Posted by CyberGhostface
Perhaps the best tale of inside evil ever written is Poe's "The Tell-Tale Heart," where murder is committed out of pure evil, with no mitigating circumstances whatever to tincture the brew. Poe suggests we will call his narrator mad because we must always believe that such perfect, motiveless evil is mad, for the sake of our own sanity.
--Stephen King, Danse Macabre
That's interesting that King saw it that way...I saw the narrator as more pathetic and pitiable than outright evil.
Uh... we may just have to agree to disagree...
Originally Posted by CyberGhostface
Originally Posted by pathoftheturtle
I never saw the event as having been set up for that purpose. It made some sense once you described it, but it's not how I understood SK's
intent on first reading DT7. Even if the rape has no purpose to his character, it still has a purpose to the scene in which it appears. It may have been saying something different about the character, though, indicated by the title of the chapter, "The Shining Wire" in reference to Watership Down.
I'm not sure what you mean here? (I haven't read Watership Down yet, unfortunately, although it's on my to-do list...)
Well, let me look something up, give it some thought, & I'll try to clarify.
BTW, to Brainslinger; thanks for that information. I'm more of a look-at-stuff-from-every-angle kind of guy than a memorize-what-has-been-told type. It's quite helpful to have knowledgeable folken like you and Matthew (and Tik ) in this tet.
Will I still enjoy it if I know how the series ends?
Originally Posted by pathoftheturtle
Uh... we may just have to agree to disagree...
I'm not saying Tell-Tale Heart's protagonist was excusable in his insanity, just that he wasn't "perfect, motiveless evil". He did have a motive, it just happened to be utterly delusional. I haven't read all of Poe's work yet, but I would say the protagonist from "Cask of Amontillado" was probably more evil in that he was in full control of his mental facilities.
"Poe suggests we will call his narrator mad because we must always believe that such perfect, motiveless evil is mad, for the sake of our own sanity." No, Poe suggests the narrator's mad because he's crazier than a shithouse rat, believes that the old man's eye is evil, and thinks that his his own heartbeat is in fact the old man's disembodied heart beating underneath the floorboard.
A hound will die for you, but never lie to you. And he'll look you straight in the face.
BTW, to Brainslinger; thanks for that information. I'm more of a look-at-stuff-from-every-angle kind of guy than a memorize-what-has-been-told type. It's quite helpful to have knowledgeable folken like you and Matthew (and Tik ) in this tet.
You're welcome! I had to scroll up to read what this was responding too though, so my memory isn't that great. My memory is actually far from encyclopedic, especially compared to a lot of guys on here though, but some specific things will sink in and stay with me. Monster stuff for example.
For example I know Walter's mother functions as a death goddess who tempts people away before their time.
Dark Tower 7 Spoiler:
Spoiler:
I suspect she was the wench Roland was talking about to 'The Writer' in the last Dark Tower novel.
But can I remember her name? Not without looking it up in the Sorceror. Heh.
I agree about Jae. I love Isanove but do miss Jae's work. He's such an amazing artist.
From what we heard, it wasn't that Joe got behind, but that he was committed to other things, not limited to Dead Irons.
And he'll be drawing the last arc. From what I read in another thread... somewhere... he started work on Jericho Hill and Isanove became main artist for the comics in between.
I really liked Isanove's work on The Sorceror. I actually think Isanove does facial expressions better. I.e Jae Lee's drawings all look very serious, rarely raise a smile even when it's warranted. In the case of Roland that fits, but not Cuthbert.
That's a small criticism though, I'm sure Jae Lee could rectify easily enough. His art is visually stunning and sumptious, that's for sure.
My copy of this is in the post now. Hopefully it'll arive tomorrow. (I didn't even realise it was out, until the last minute! Heh.)
Ok, I've been on the sidelines here for awhile but it is now time to weigh in with my opinion.
Again, my opinion only. Both Jae and Richard are extremely talented artists, but I find that I am missing Jae's art very very much. I agree that his depictions of the characters were more "grim" but I liked that a lot. I picked up this Fall of Gilead edition and the wind went out of my sails when I looked at Alain, Cuthbert, Eileen and Roland. And, oh, Jae did a kick-ass Cort, but Richard's version looks like a pudgy bald man. The characters just don't carry that edge I grew accustomed with when Jae was drawing the panels. My preference, however. I still like the story and I do like Richard's artwork, but Jae's just my man.
And yes, Jae will be drawing the final arc. You can take that to the bank.
Dragline : Nothin'. A handful of nothin'. You stupid mullet head. He beat you with nothin'. Just like today when he kept comin' back at me - with nothin'.
Luke : Yeah, well, sometimes nothin' can be a real cool hand.
Oh, forgot. the new Eileen has boobs all of a sudden! Loved Jae's rendition of Eileen!
Dragline : Nothin'. A handful of nothin'. You stupid mullet head. He beat you with nothin'. Just like today when he kept comin' back at me - with nothin'.
Luke : Yeah, well, sometimes nothin' can be a real cool hand.
Will I still enjoy it if I know how the series ends?
Not as much, of course. I thought you might have read it, but, since not, I can only say that it is worth your while.
And I don’t intend to spoil Watership Down, either.
"People, especially children, aren't measured by their IQ. What's important about them is whether they're good or bad, and these children are bad." ~ Alan Bernard
"You needn't die happy when your day comes, but you must die satisfied, for you have lived your life from beginning to end and ka is always served." ~ Roland Deschain
Well, anyway, this thread's not really supposed to be about the effect of TDT on English literature as a whole; the point of it is the effect of these new tales on TDT itself. I tend to rather agree that the new details about Maerlyn and his paraphernalia are eclipsing the original meaning. Of course, I'm not privy to the creators' long-range plans... if there are any. It just seems to me that the focus has been on "explaining" Roland's "big mistake" and that there's really been too little forethought as to the ultimate effects of the means that are being used.
I've already shared my theory that Robin Furth is basically a fan with selective perception. Now let me say a little about Stephen King and his part in all of this. I believe that reaching the Tower had its own meaning for King, privately. However, look at "On Being Nineteen" wherein he admits that his primary goal is "an audience" and claims that this is no more selfish than "seeking the keys to the self" like a strictly intellectual writer.
King believes in giving the people what they want.
With so many fans identifying with the socially redeeming interpretation of the ending, why would he reject his own success?
The problem is that people don't really know what they want. It becomes necessary to reinvent the tragedy.
But who knows? If enough of us are into it, then perhaps something will be made out of all of this. There is a built-in release: Perhaps in the DT films, Roland will learn the truth from Gan, about the real source of all of their problems, and we will then get more comics or a TV series in which he goes after Maerlyn.
Is this thing gonna be available for awhile? Or has it already come and gone from the stands? I don't really want a flimsy magazine for my DT comics, so will it be available in hardcover form at any point?
I'm sorry if these are stupid questions, but I honestly had no idea this one-shot story existed until just now.
Also, pertaining to Flagg's new origin story: I personally am pleased, because once again it depicts Flagg as a force of nature, and not just some molested kid who learned magic tricks. He is a true quasi-immortal Wizard again, and if that means King has to re-write the sham of an origin story he wrote for Flagg in DT7 when it comes to the omnibus editions, well, I personally don't care. Anything to get that bad taste out of my mouth. Yuck.
Also, I haven't read the comic yet, so that story could contradict this, but who's to say Flagg can't have multiple origins? Maybe each form he takes was at one point a real person, or at least immitates an actual person who such things happened to.
If the Walter persona was based on an actual human being Flagg 'stole' the identity from, maybe it is possible for him to be not just a master of disguise, but in fact multiple people who have merged together. I mean, he can be on all different levels of the Tower, so why not? I think it is very plausible that in fact 'Flagg' is the force that brought all of these indentities together, and that each indentity it has taken on had their own seperate beginnings.
Dud-a : The comic is available until it sells out at your local comic book store.
Most stores keep back-copies ( just look behind the current copy on the shelf ) or ask the owner... if they actually sold out, they can usually get you a copy.
The Man In Black Fled Across The Desert... ...And The Gunslinger Followed.
“I’m always on the Batman rule, sir.” - Kate Kane / Detective Comics 857
"It is the story, not he who tells it." Except to us collectors who have to put limits somewhere. - jhanic
Remember, Remember, The Fifth of November, The Gunpowder, Treason, and Plot.
Is this thing gonna be available for awhile? Or has it already come and gone from the stands? I don't really want a flimsy magazine for my DT comics, so will it be available in hardcover form at any point?
I'm sorry if these are stupid questions, but I honestly had no idea this one-shot story existed until just now.
Yes and yes. I don't see it going out of print anytime soon (except for the first couple of issues, I don't recall any selling out.) It will probably be collected in hardcover format like the rest of the issues. You can get it at eBay right now for 2.99.
Originally Posted by Dud-a-chum?
Also, pertaining to Flagg's new origin story: I personally am pleased, because once again it depicts Flagg as a force of nature, and not just some molested kid who learned magic tricks. He is a true quasi-immortal Wizard again, and if that means King has to re-write the sham of an origin story he wrote for Flagg in DT7 when it comes to the omnibus editions, well, I personally don't care. Anything to get that bad taste out of my mouth. Yuck.
I suppose it comes down to a matter of opinion either way, but I always assumed that Flagg began as a human. He never struck me as being some cosmic entity like IT. And if anything, Flagg having a humble origin fits King's original idea for the character as way back with The Stand he was always intended to be much less powerful than he lead people to believe (although I think King went too far with that with his death). Having him be a simple farmboy who ran away completes that better than having him being the son of PURE EVIL.
Originally Posted by Dud-a-chum?
Also, I haven't read the comic yet, so that story could contradict this, but who's to say Flagg can't have multiple origins? Maybe each form he takes was at one point a real person, or at least immitates an actual person who such things happened to.
If the Walter persona was based on an actual human being Flagg 'stole' the identity from, maybe it is possible for him to be not just a master of disguise, but in fact multiple people who have merged together. I mean, he can be on all different levels of the Tower, so why not? I think it is very plausible that in fact 'Flagg' is the force that brought all of these indentities together, and that each indentity it has taken on had their own seperate beginnings.
Flagg's backstory is already a mess and that would make it more convoluted IMO if he had different backstories.
A hound will die for you, but never lie to you. And he'll look you straight in the face.
Well, this wasn't like those "guidebooks" if that's what you're referring to...it picks up from Treachery ended and has some stuff (like the resurrection of Farson's son) that are presumably followed in Fall of Gilead. "Guide to Gilead" and stuff like that is more like a glossary--this was actually a story. I guess we'll have to wait and see, but I'd be surprised if it wasn't included in the hardcover for Fall of Gilead.
A hound will die for you, but never lie to you. And he'll look you straight in the face.
Is this thing gonna be available for awhile? Or has it already come and gone from the stands? I don't really want a flimsy magazine for my DT comics, so will it be available in hardcover form at any point?
I'm sorry if these are stupid questions, but I honestly had no idea this one-shot story existed until just now.
Yes and yes. I don't see it going out of print anytime soon (except for the first couple of issues, I don't recall any selling out.) It will probably be collected in hardcover format like the rest of the issues. You can get it at eBay right now for 2.99.
*sigh of relief* I truly hope you are right. Either way, it's to the news stands I go, just in case it doesn't make it into any of the hardcovers.
Originally Posted by CyberGhostface
Originally Posted by Dud-a-chum?
Also, pertaining to Flagg's new origin story: I personally am pleased, because once again it depicts Flagg as a force of nature, and not just some molested kid who learned magic tricks. He is a true quasi-immortal Wizard again, and if that means King has to re-write the sham of an origin story he wrote for Flagg in DT7 when it comes to the omnibus editions, well, I personally don't care. Anything to get that bad taste out of my mouth. Yuck.
I suppose it comes down to a matter of opinion either way, but I always assumed that Flagg began as a human. He never struck me as being some cosmic entity like IT. And if anything, Flagg having a humble origin fits King's original idea for the character as way back with The Stand he was always intended to be much less powerful than he lead people to believe (although I think King went too far with that with his death). Having him be a simple farmboy who ran away completes that better than having him being the son of PURE EVIL.
Well, I do agree with you in part, but I think we all know that King makes a lot of this shit up as he goes along, and while Flagg may not have always been meant to be a very powerful, evil force (His weaknesses and contradictory behavior in 'Eyes of the Dragon' for instance, show a much more human Flagg than any other book, in my opinion), that is ultimately what he became.
So which is better, going along with the natural evolution the character has taken over the last thirty some odd years? Or reverting back to the original concept of Flagg at the last minute after so much contradictory material has been written for him? Seems to me King ran out of ideas of what to do with Flagg, so he decided to re-write him mid-series and depict him as a mere mortal once again so he could have an excuse for his quick demise. To me, that's not fair to the reader, who has become attached to the character as he was written years ago, then all of sudden have all of that disregarded in the end. Just my opinion.
Originally Posted by CyberGhostface
Originally Posted by Dud-a-chum?
Also, I haven't read the comic yet, so that story could contradict this, but who's to say Flagg can't have multiple origins? Maybe each form he takes was at one point a real person, or at least immitates an actual person who such things happened to.
If the Walter persona was based on an actual human being Flagg 'stole' the identity from, maybe it is possible for him to be not just a master of disguise, but in fact multiple people who have merged together. I mean, he can be on all different levels of the Tower, so why not? I think it is very plausible that in fact 'Flagg' is the force that brought all of these indentities together, and that each indentity it has taken on had their own seperate beginnings.
Flagg's backstory is already a mess and that would make it more convoluted IMO if he had different backstories.
Meh . . . as you said, the origin is already quite untidy and logic-less, so the way I see it, a radical explanation like the one I proposed couldn't do it any more harm, and in fact just might make all of the pieces snap back into place.
Oh, I'm not looking for it to happen, mind you, but it would be nice; that way I could actually know which version of Flagg to believe in. Right now whenever I read him in King's books, I never know how much of a threat he actually is, do to the butchering of his nature and backstory.
Well, I do agree with you in part, but I think we all know that King makes a lot of this shit up as he goes along,
I agree-- King definitely makes it up as he goes along. Thats one of my biggest problems with the series, that he didn't have some sort of master plan. By the end the whole mythology became such a mess to the point where King all but threw up his hands and went "Screw this!" when went out of his way to say that the related books don't matter in the final novel.
Originally Posted by Dud-a-chum?
and while Flagg may not have always been meant to be a very powerful, evil force (His weaknesses and contradictory behavior in 'Eyes of the Dragon' for instance, show a much more human Flagg than any other book, in my opinion), that is ultimately what he became.
Actually, I think its the opposite--out of all the books he's been in, I think The Stand is where he's most powerful and the closest to being the force of pure evil. After that he became pretty much an evil wizard from that point on.
Originally Posted by Dud-a-chum?
So which is better, going along with the natural evolution the character has taken over the last thirty some odd years? Or reverting back to the original concept of Flagg at the last minute after so much contradictory material has been written for him?
I don't see it as 'reverting' because he's always been like that--being less powerful than he lets on. His origin fits that.
Originally Posted by Dud-a-chum?
Seems to me King ran out of ideas of what to do with Flagg, so he decided to re-write him mid-series and depict him as a mere mortal once again so he could have an excuse for his quick demise. To me, that's not fair to the reader, who has become attached to the character as he was written years ago, then all of sudden have all of that disregarded in the end. Just my opinion.
Don't get me wrong, I HATED his demise. It's the WORST thing in the series by far--I cannot stress this enough. Hell will freeze over before I defend it. King obviously killed him off because he lost interest in him and wanted to focus more on Mordred Poopingpants.
But even if making him human was merely to further that demise, I still think his origin works for his character. I think he's more interesting as someone who becomes evil after having horrific events happen rather than someone simply born evil. I also think it makes him a bit sympathetic, which I like.
A hound will die for you, but never lie to you. And he'll look you straight in the face.
...with The Stand he was always intended to be much less powerful than he lead people to believe (although I think King went too far with that with his death). ...
Why am I not surprised?
Evil always has a short half-life.
--The Stand
I kind of like your idea, Dud-a-chum?: you're right that they should do something.
Originally Posted by CyberGhostface
Uh... we may just have to agree to disagree...
)
Remember, Remember, The Fifth of November, The Gunpowder, Treason, and Plot.
Tower junkies: more long-winded than SK himself. 
My memory is actually far from encyclopedic, especially compared to a lot of guys on here though, but some specific things will sink in and stay with me. Monster stuff for example. 
Well, now we’re getting into literary interpretation in general… and yet I feel that I must respond. Tell ya what…
.
