Best Sci-Fi Tournament - Round 1, Group P

[Mattrick]

Nevertheless, I'm also here, besides seeing new ideas, to criticize what I have seen. I like that, in the constructive sense: attempting to advance the culture by promoting artworks which are congruent with its values and in others analyzing where the incongruity occurs. So if you happen to scroll up to where I said "...Fifth Element is a concept film..." again, Matt, please note that I said so in response to Jean comparing it to Inception and The Matrix, both of which I have previously defended to him on grounds of metaphysical and sociological themes. I think his issue is that he attends more readily to character driven material. And I think that's a fair complaint about all three examples. That's why I grade Matrix & Inception just somewhere in the range of a C+ to B+ (excluding sequels.) The protagonist in 5th Element really is resistant to growth and hardly changes at all through the picture until the very end. Rather like Neo, actually, although even that slightly truer depiction of the breakthrough of accepting love is not really quite all that. But, like I said in my previous post, at least you do get the proverbial and a bag of chips. Sadly, I did appreciate "a lot" in the details of 5E, particularly in the opening and early sequences, so if it's true that my expectations were too high, that might be the explanation. The languages were fascinating, and the glimpses of setting implied an apparent whole somewhat reminiscent of Blade Runner, which IS on my short A-list to win this whole tournament. Furthermore, right up there with it on that list is Twelve Monkeys, so you know I don't have a problem with Bruce Willis. Yet it is not so easy for some people to enjoy a work for the sake of enjoyment when it just doesn't hold appeal for them. As you pointed out, in place of a high concept this science fiction film simply deploys genre conventions on scant pretext. Not my cup of tea at all.

Inception and The Matrix are two films that get worse every time I watch them. I don't even think I can bear to watch Inception again because it's just poorly written, a concept film with nothing besides it's concept...the only thing that really kept me coming back for a second (and maybe a third viewing, can't recall) was the effects and the always fantastic Marionne Cottilard. The Matrix has more to it than just it's concept thematically but the sequels are so watered down in overbearing philosophy it cheapens the original film, which still has the most wooden acting of the decade (except Hugo Weaving who is a program and is more human than the humans, and Pantaliano who again, is a human villain so the Wachowski's obviously felt heroes are dull, boring and emotionless while villains have feelings and insight into the word lol) but, in the end, what made The Matrix so famous was it's ground breaking affects that seem less groundbreaking with all the parodies that followed. Willis in Fifth Element didn't have a breakthrough to find love, he was already looking for it, I agree Korbin has no growth but he seems to have been a character who is only where he is because of previous growth. Twleve Monkey would by high on my list to win the tournmant too (they are remaking it apparently...it is sure to be dreadful), especially now that some of my favourites aren't surpassing round one. And whatever happened to Madeline Stowe? She just kind of vanished. We're kind of revered on this one as I would rank Fifth Element higher than those other two films as it relies more on practical effects, sets and costume design instead relying on computer effects to create their world...nothing against good special effects but I will always give more credit to films that use them sparingly, it was a little different in the 90s but these days computer effects are often an easy way to spruce up average filmmaking or a lack of ingenuity (hey Zack Snyder, how you doin?).

[Jean]

Hm. Have you ever triedBlade Runner, Jean?

No, but I am planning to.

Have tried to watch Dark City, by the way, and stopped in the middle. I liked the visuals, but they only got me through the first ten minutes, and then the whole thing seemed somehow so pointless that I never finished it.

You really must try to finish it. There is simply so much in it. <...>

yees... maybe... it was, like a half-hour till the end, and it didn't seem to be anything in it, so I couldn't make myself go on. I'll try some day. Did you see La cité des enfants perdus?

[mae]

Yes, Dark City is astounding. Very different from The City of Lost Children.

[divemaster]

Before you watch Blade Runner, Jean, be aware that there are like 5 different cuts of the film. Some vary only slightly, but in ways that cause you to reassess the entire basis of the movie, or, in the case of the alternate endings, leave you with varying levels of optimism (like, from "some" to "pretty much none").

[Mattrick]

The amount of cuts and the variance of opinions between cuts and which cut is the definitive cut has kind of deterred me away from Blade Runner. I saw way back when and barely remember it or what cut I watched and I remember liking it but not much else other than the shot with the origami for some reason. I am sure I'll sit and watch it soon but with it's fanbase I imagine it will advance a few more rounds so I have some time.

[divemaster]

You can always do what I did and get the 5 DVD box set with all cuts and numerous commentaries and bonus materials!

[Still Servant]

Twleve Monkey would by high on my list to win the tournmant too (they are remaking it apparently...it is sure to be dreadful), especially now that some of my favourites aren't surpassing round one. And whatever happened to Madeline Stowe? She just kind of vanished.

The remake of Twelve Monkeys is a TV show. It will still probably suck, but it's not like they are trying to remake the film.

Also, Madeleine Stowe was on the ABC TV show Revenge that just got cancelled. I would like to add that she is still smokin' hot.

[Jean]

Before you watch Blade Runner, Jean, be aware that there are like 5 different cuts of the film. Some vary only slightly, but in ways that cause you to reassess the entire basis of the movie, or, in the case of the alternate endings, leave you with varying levels of optimism (like, from "some" to "pretty much none").

do you mean I have to watch the five?????!!!

[mae]

The theatrical version is fine.

[divemaster]

Watch any of the five, just not the theatrical version.

[Jean]

how will bears know?

[needfulthings]

Before you watch Blade Runner, Jean, be aware that there are like 5 different cuts of the film. Some vary only slightly, but in ways that cause you to reassess the entire basis of the movie, or, in the case of the alternate endings, leave you with varying levels of optimism (like, from "some" to "pretty much none").

do you mean I have to watch the five?????!!!

SOUNDS GOOD TO ME! (I KNOW I DID)

[pathoftheturtle]

pablo's right. Have to start somewhere. Quit being completists and let the man (the mammal, whatever) find out if he even likes the setting after having to slog through Dark City.

And Mattrick, are you still trying to tell me that 5E is somehow worthwhile? Dude, save your breath! Why do people who like something find it so hard to comprehend that other people just despise the whole smell of it?

[T-Dogz_AK47]

WTF! 22 votes for Independence Day???

The film is utter SHITE!!!

[Mattrick]

And Mattrick, are you still trying to tell me that 5E is somehow worthwhile? Dude, save your breath! Why do people who like something find it so hard to comprehend that other people just despise the whole smell of it?

That's not what I have trouble comprehending, I'm a wrestling fan...no one understands that concept more than me, believe me on that. My point isn't that you disliked it but why you disliked it. Like you said you did appreciate a lot of the visual details in the Fifth Element and those details are why I enjoy it. A valid complaint to a film is problems with the narrative/characters but film is a visual medium and the visuals in the Fifth Element are the reason I watch it. It's a hokey film with a huge appeal for practical effects, sets and costume design, which is a lot like the appeal in Star Wars. The Fifth Element is one of the last films who took the time to utlize models and minatures etc instead of CGI reliance which...these films went the way of the dodo the following year with the new Star Wars and the trail effect of The Matrix and to me, that's endearing and that has nothing to do with script problems. We actually rate Fifth Element/Matrix/Inception around the same grades but apparently for different reasons. Matrix and Inception may have metaphysical themes but themes do not make a movie better, especially when those themes are but a mere reason for a film to fill itself with cutting edge digital effects. I appreciate good scripts but they don't make a movie great. As an example of what I mean I'll look at Tarantino. For years I thought he was an average director who hadn't established his own visual sense but his scripts were fantastic and he always got good performances from his actors. Tarantino's best film imo is the film most people enjoyed the least, Inglorious Basterds, because it still had the great script/acting he's known for but visually and thematically it was far and away his best work which put it over the top for me. I really don't care if you don't like Fifth Element, I just don't understand the viewpoint of 'I don't like the script so the movie is automatically awful'. A script is just one facet of filmmaking and it has a huge impact but does ANYONE love Star Wars because of the script...I mean, the dialogue in A New Hope is attrocious but you look past that for everything else. I love me some thematically heavy films which is why I love Fantastic Planet and The Arrival so much and was sad to see them not advance...it's just not a necessity for me to the point I can't enjoy everything else a film can offer. If all you care about is characterization, narrative and themes then why do you bother to watch film at all? Books contain that and just that. A huge appeal for me in film is the photography which means every detail that goes into that photography; script doesn't really impact photography and vice versa. Some films are marvels of photography but have narrative problems and some films have fantastic scripts but are visual sterile. Truly great films are both but plenty of solid films are lacking in one or the other.

[pathoftheturtle]

You've convinced me to lower Inception from B+ to B, but not to raise Fifth Element from F to D-.
Minority Report could have a D+ though. A poor script and good visuals automatically is a better movie than terrific visuals and awful writing.

[Still Servant]

D+ for Minority Report? I can see hating Fifth Element, but I can't see how Minority Report warrants almost the same grade.

Also, I love Independence Day and The Fifth Element. Two films I watched as a teen that bring back fond memories. I know many people disagree, but I don't care.

[pathoftheturtle]

If I have to be a conformist, I'd rather be trying to fit in with ID4 critics than with ID4 fans.

[Mattrick]

Minority report is so packed with sociological and metaphysical themes and a better film than Matrix/Inception yet you disliked it more? I can respect your opinions but ithat doesn't mean I understand their consistency film to film.

"American movies are in the midst of a transition period. Some directors place their trust in technology. Spielberg, who is a master of technology, trusts only story and character, and then uses everything else as a workman uses his tools. He makes "Minority Report" with the new technology; other directors seem to be trying to make their movies from it. This film is such a virtuoso high-wire act, daring so much, achieving it with such grace and skill. "Minority Report" reminds us why we go to the movies in the first place."

[pathoftheturtle]

"American movies are in the midst of a transition period. Some directors place their trust in technology. Spielberg, who is a master of technology, trusts only story and character, and then uses everything else as a workman uses his tools. He makes "Minority Report" with the new technology; other directors seem to be trying to make their movies from it. This film is such a virtuoso high-wire act, daring so much, achieving it with such grace and skill. "Minority Report" reminds us why we go to the movies in the first place."

Ebert?

[Mattrick]

Yeah. I don't always agree with him but I'll be damned if anyone else can word their criticisms as elegantly as he can. A couple of the critics who contribute to his website now are smart with film but not the greatest at writing about them. Matt Zoller Seitz, who is his protege or something all those lines, is a little too showy with film knowledge for my tastes: his Godzilla review is 50% talking about how the movie made him think of other (and better films) and he seemed to like it because it couldn't even be visually unique...for smaller films he's fine but I cannot trust his opinion when it comes to blockbusters and his 3 1/2 star review for Edge of Tomorrow terrified me the movie would suck ass haha. In his Godzilla review he mentioned the following films:Godzilla vs Mothra, Cloverfield, The Birds, Apocalypse Now, Jaws, Close Encounters of the Third Kind, War of the Worlds (2005), Pacific Rim, Star Trek Into Darkness, Man of Steel, The Thin Red Line, Lady and The Tramp, applauding the film for blatantly stealing shots from these films while insulting other recent blockbusters for being sterile (but blatantly unoriginal is okay), then ends the review by quoting George Carlin....so much name dropping. His Maleficient review was no better, except at least in that one he admitted had a 'true lack of filmmaking imagination' yet liked it anyways...I think Zoller Seitz is your complete opposite, path lol

[pathoftheturtle]

Well, I don't realy blog or record standardized grades on a consistent basis. I kind of just threw those out as metaphor of a slightly more systemized version of Jean's boredometer. Offhand, I do think I liked MR less, but that one I might be persuaded to watch again.

[Mattrick]

I would definitely recommend that beacuse unlike Fifth Element which is a B-Movie, Minority Report is a real film and you should definitely revisit it. I was going to watch it tonight but I forgot it was my brother's DVD I always watched not mine....

[pathoftheturtle]

"Real film" in the loosest sense maybe.

[Mattrick]

Not at all. There's tons of juicy ideas in it. A solid mix of sci-fi, action and noir. The future it creates is such a uniquely utopian dystopia and, to me, it's perhaps the scariest direction we can go I've seen in film, at least when you really think about it.