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View Poll Results: Whose responsibility was Susan's death?

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  • Roland's

    5 3.97%
  • The Mejis folks' (who let it happen)

    17 13.49%
  • Cordelia's and Rhea's

    54 42.86%
  • Everyone's from above

    15 11.90%
  • Someone else's - /let us know please/

    7 5.56%
  • It was ka

    27 21.43%
  • Noone's

    1 0.79%
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Thread: Whose responsibility was...

  1. #51
    The Tenant Jean has a brilliant future Jean has a brilliant future Jean has a brilliant future Jean has a brilliant future Jean has a brilliant future Jean has a brilliant future Jean has a brilliant future Jean has a brilliant future Jean has a brilliant future Jean has a brilliant future Jean has a brilliant future Jean's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by R_of_G View Post
    <...>so I want to re-read that part and make sure I am clear about it all before I explain to him how wrong he is
    ... in your dreams!

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  2. #52
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    Roland did know the danger and the risk. (And I think risk is a keyword here.) He himself said it many times and told it to Susan and to his friends as well. It was metioned a lot of time that they could die... and he didn't kill Rhea, either so how the blue hell could he think that Susan's all right?
    He thought (hoped) that ka or Gan or the White or these all together would have to save their lives. He was wrong.

    Roland would have understood.

  3. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jean View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by R_of_G View Post
    <...>so I want to re-read that part and make sure I am clear about it all before I explain to him how wrong he is
    ... in your dreams!

    Roland would have understood.

  4. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by R_of_G View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Jean View Post
    in additon to what I said here and to what Nikolett said in the post right above: Roland belongs to a culture where 14 is an age of responsibility, much as it was once in our own history.
    This is true Jean, and a good point. All of that said, do you really put all of the blame on Roland? Does not Cordelia own even a little of it for you? She put Susan in the position of being Thorin's gilly. She authorized charyou tree. These were conscious descisions on her part. If we are to blame a 14 year old [whether we think at that age he is a man or a boy] for lacking foresight, do we not blame a full grown adult like Cordelia as well? Surely she was wise enough to know one doesn't sentence their own niece to death no matter how pert she may be.
    The same way we could blame her parents for having given her birth. People live, and other people plot against them to pursue their own petty ends; they scheme and intrigue and sometimes endanger someone's life, or more often just make it harder to live... this someone may go with the flow or rebel - that would have been her own choice - and then Someone Else comes, a romantic third party, to mess it all up, to bring her to the point of no return; and what's then? One could expect he would at least take care of her and protect her from those schemers and plotters? Fat chance. He's troubled the water as hard as he could and rode on following a glammer he saw in a goddamn glass.

    In a word, Cordelia and the rest are just normal factors of a normal (hard) life. Roland is the only murderous agent here.

    Ask not what bears can do for you, but what you can do for bears. (razz)
    When one is in agreement with bears one is always correct. (mae)

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  5. #55
    Roont jayson is on a distinguished road

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jean View Post
    ... in your dreams!
    Come come commala
    My re-read starts tomorr-ah
    And when I find the part I want
    That Bear's a-gonna holl-ah

    Quote Originally Posted by Letti View Post
    Roland did know the danger and the risk. (And I think risk is a keyword here.) He himself said it many times and told it to Susan and to his friends as well. It was metioned a lot of time that they could die... and he didn't kill Rhea, either so how the blue hell could he think that Susan's all right?
    He thought (hoped) that ka or Gan or the White or these all together would have to save their lives. He was wrong.
    Letti, I agree that he knew she was in danger, I just don't think he knew the immediacy of it. I think he thought she was safe hiding with Sheemie. Should he have? Maybe not. Should he have killed Rhea when he had the chance? Without a doubt.

  6. #56
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    I might live in a dream-world but Cordelia is not just a normal factor of a normal life. She became insane. (Sometimes I do feel sorry for her. So did Susan if you remember.)
    It's not so rare or unique but it's not usual either. Most of the people don't get crazy.

    Roland would have understood.

  7. #57
    damned and saved Letti will become famous soon enough Letti will become famous soon enough Letti's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by R_of_G View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Letti View Post
    Roland did know the danger and the risk. (And I think risk is a keyword here.) He himself said it many times and told it to Susan and to his friends as well. It was metioned a lot of time that they could die... and he didn't kill Rhea, either so how the blue hell could he think that Susan's all right?
    He thought (hoped) that ka or Gan or the White or these all together would have to save their lives. He was wrong.
    Letti, I agree that he knew she was in danger, I just don't think he knew the immediacy of it. I think he thought she was safe hiding with Sheemie. Should he have? Maybe not. Should he have killed Rhea when he had the chance? Without a doubt.
    Hiding with Sheemie... I am not a gunslinger but for me it doesn't sound so safe at all. Not at all...
    If I remember well (I will have to reread that part again) it was deadly easy to find them.

    Roland would have understood.

  8. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by R_of_G View Post
    Come come commala
    My re-read starts tomorr-ah
    And when I find the part I want
    That Bear's a-gonna holl-ah


    Fucking BRILLIANT!!!!!
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  9. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by Letti View Post
    I might live in a dream-world but Cordelia is not just a normal factor of a normal life. She became insane. (Sometimes I do feel sorry for her. So did Susan if you remember.)
    It's not so rare or unique but it's not usual either. Most of the people don't het crazy.
    but it was Roland who provoked her! if not for him, she would either have stayed relatively sane, although highly annoying, or become mildly insane without anobody caring

    Quote Originally Posted by R_of_G
    Come come commala
    My re-read starts tomorr-ah
    And when I find the part I want
    That Bear's a-gonna holl-ah
    Commala come come
    Bear is slow but not dumb!
    When adversaries are worthy
    He swallows head and heart and thumb!

    Ask not what bears can do for you, but what you can do for bears. (razz)
    When one is in agreement with bears one is always correct. (mae)

    bears are back!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

  10. #60
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  11. #61
    Roont jayson is on a distinguished road

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jean View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by R_of_G View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Jean View Post
    in additon to what I said here and to what Nikolett said in the post right above: Roland belongs to a culture where 14 is an age of responsibility, much as it was once in our own history.
    This is true Jean, and a good point. All of that said, do you really put all of the blame on Roland? Does not Cordelia own even a little of it for you? She put Susan in the position of being Thorin's gilly. She authorized charyou tree. These were conscious descisions on her part. If we are to blame a 14 year old [whether we think at that age he is a man or a boy] for lacking foresight, do we not blame a full grown adult like Cordelia as well? Surely she was wise enough to know one doesn't sentence their own niece to death no matter how pert she may be.
    The same way we could blame her parents for having given her birth. People live, and other people plot against them to pursue their own petty ends; they scheme and intrigue and sometimes endanger someone's life, or more often just make it harder to live... this someone may go with the flow or rebel - that would have been her own choice - and then Someone Else comes, a romantic third party, to mess it all up, to bring her to the point of no return; and what's then? One could expect he would at least take care of her and protect her from those schemers and plotters? Fat chance. He's troubled the water as hard as he could and rode on following a glammer he saw in a goddamn glass.

    In a word, Cordelia and the rest are just normal factors of a normal (hard) life. Roland is the only murderous agent here.
    Firstly, doesn't Cordelia's plotting make her responsible for the results of it?
    Here's another question from all that.. does Susan have any responsibility to protect herself? She's not just a pawn for Roland and Cordelia to play with.

    Also, very nice response to the Rice Song stanza I used. We should start a thread where we only talk to each other in Rice Song verse.

  12. #62
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    yes... but they all are normal responsibilities of a normal every-day life situation. Roland took the situation beyond every-day, turned it abnormal, extreme; provoked people into insanity and rage, and rode off. Following, I repeat spitting on the floor, something he (a gunslinger my ass!) saw in a piece of pink glass!

    Ask not what bears can do for you, but what you can do for bears. (razz)
    When one is in agreement with bears one is always correct. (mae)

    bears are back!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

  13. #63
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    UMM..IT SEEMS YOU GUYS ARE FORDETING THE GUY THAT KILLED SUSAN'S DAD...HAD HER DAD NOT OF DIED, SHE WOULDN'T HAVE BEEN SAI THORIN'S GILLY, SO ON AND SO FORTH!!!

  14. #64
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    RoG I want you to know that I am not jumping in because it's been a long time since I read W&G. Not abandoning you bro, I just don't remember a lot of stuff. I'm almost done with Wastelands, so I'll be starting it soon. Perhaps we should pause this conversation until we've had time to do research
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  15. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jean View Post
    Roland took the situation beyond every-day, turned it abnormal, extreme; provoked people into insanity and rage
    I'd say Rhea did that, at least with respect to Cordelia. In fact, I'd put the blame for the rest of Hambry's insanity on Rhea and Eldred Jonas, not Roland and his tet. Remember, the outrage was sparked by the murder of Thorin. The town only thought the boys did it thanks to Jonas' plans. If your theory is that Roland created the insanity by preventing Hambry from aiding Farson in his plans, then they deserved to be driven insane for that was not a noble cause for them to be following. If he caused the insanity by falling for Susan, it cuts both ways love does. She fell for him as well. She was a big girl, she could have said no.

  16. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by ENDER1984 View Post
    UMM..IT SEEMS YOU GUYS ARE FORDETING THE GUY THAT KILLED SUSAN'S DAD...HAD HER DAD NOT OF DIED, SHE WOULDN'T HAVE BEEN SAI THORIN'S GILLY, SO ON AND SO FORTH!!!
    Good point Ender, and well along the lines of where I've been on this one since the begining. Like I said earlier, we could just as easily blame Arthur Eld for swearing his line to protect the Tower to begin with. The point is, Roland didn't cause Susan's situation, nor did he take advantage of it. BOTH of them made conscious decisions.

  17. #67
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    I absolutely agree...best point i've read.

  18. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by R_of_G
    I'd say Rhea did that, at least with respect to Cordelia. In fact, I'd put the blame for the rest of Hambry's insanity on Rhea and Eldred Jonas, not Roland and his tet. Remember, the outrage was sparked by the murder of Thorin. The town only thought the boys did it thanks to Jonas' plans. If your theory is that Roland created the insanity by preventing Hambry from aiding Farson in his plans, then they deserved to be driven insane for that was not a noble cause for them to be following. If he caused the insanity by falling for Susan, it cuts both ways love does. She fell for him as well. She was a big girl, she could have said no.
    but I do not blame him for that. It's for not protecting the girl he loved and abandoning her in the turmoil he created that I blame him, not for the turmoil itself. (OK, I could add another responsible party - civil war itself - but it's rather "what" than "who".)

    Ask not what bears can do for you, but what you can do for bears. (razz)
    When one is in agreement with bears one is always correct. (mae)

    bears are back!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

  19. #69
    Roont jayson is on a distinguished road

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    Maybe now is the time to ask what would you who blame Roland have had him do? Should he have taken Susan with him to Eyebolt Canyon? I can't imagine a battlefield is the safest place for her either. She was brave as hell but surely not a gunslinger. Should he have ridden back to Hambry after the battle? If she were already dead would it matter? If she weren't, what would he do, create an early version of Tull by killing every man woman and child in town to free his love?

  20. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by ENDER1984 View Post
    I absolutely agree...best point i've read.
    Thanks for the non caps Ender
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  21. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by R_of_G View Post
    Maybe now is the time to ask what would you who blame Roland have had him do? Should he have taken Susan with him to Eyebolt Canyon? I can't imagine a battlefield is the safest place for her either. She was brave as hell but surely not a gunslinger. Should he have ridden back to Hambry after the battle? If she were already dead would it matter? If she weren't, what would he do, create an early version of Tull by killing every man woman and child in town to free his love?
    THANK YOU!!!!! <-----bold caps, I was yelling *ducks*
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  22. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by Matt View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by ENDER1984 View Post
    I absolutely agree...best point i've read.
    Thanks for the non caps Ender
    Matt, is this really on topic

    *ducks again*

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  23. #73
    damned and saved Letti will become famous soon enough Letti will become famous soon enough Letti's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jean View Post
    yes... but they all are normal responsibilities of a normal every-day life situation. Roland took the situation beyond every-day, turned it abnormal, extreme; provoked people into insanity and rage, and rode off. Following, I repeat spitting on the floor, something he (a gunslinger my ass!) saw in a piece of pink glass!
    Ohoooo. In this case you should use plural forms, Jean. Roland AND Susan took the situation beyond every-day, turned it abnormal, extreme; provoked people into insanity and rage.
    Or is she just an innocent little girl or what?

    Roland would have understood.

  24. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by Letti View Post
    Ohoooo. In this case you should use plural forms, Jean. Roland AND Susan took the situation beyond every-day, turned it abnormal, extreme; provoked people into insanity and rage.
    Or is she just an innocent little girl or what?
    That's where I was going earlier Letti. Does not Susan bear some responsibility for her own situation? Love is a two way street.

  25. #75
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    I am always inclined to blame it on the man, yes.

    Though I don't mean their love only. I mean all Roland's activities.

    Regarding R_of_G latest question: now I have to confess that I don't remember the text all that well (it's the volume I normally avoid rereading unless I have to), and was arguing for the sake of argument on general principles. It doesn't change my opinion on anything I already said regarding Roland's forgetting the face of his father, though (choosing glammer over common sense and good judgement). Moreover, even if there had been nothing he could do (which I cannot be sure of before I reread the text), he abandoned her nevertheless, dismissed her as being "safe", which (and this is the scene I remember very well) clearly reads as "no longer important".

    ::crawls into his den to brace himself for a reread::

    Ask not what bears can do for you, but what you can do for bears. (razz)
    When one is in agreement with bears one is always correct. (mae)

    bears are back!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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