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Thread: That Thing, You Can Only Talk About If You've Finished the Series

  1. #776
    Gunslinger Apprentice Seneschal is on a distinguished road Seneschal's Avatar

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    thank you Path, for pointing me here...great discussion...

    Quote Originally Posted by Candice Dionysus View Post
    I'm going to have to say I agree very much with SynysterSaint's theory.

    If I may, Dagavidiab... If Gan wants Roland to save the Tower in the first place, this shows that Gan is somewhat of a loving deity. If we can assume this is so, it may be that in saving the Tower, Gan came to love Roland more than before he did so, and so the loop is less a punishment for losing his humanity, and more an act of pity on Gan's part. And an act of love. And through this act of love and pity, Gan presents to Roland multiple opportunities to save the Tower and his own humanity in the bargain. If I were Gan, I feel I may have done so in the same manner; each time Roland is able to salvage a small part of his humanity, Gan presents him with another gift to allow for him to save more of his own humanity, and thus, after X amount of loops, Roland will finally be able to continue on with "life as normal," for lack of a better term. The loops are determined to continue until Roland can reach the Tower with his full humanity intact, and thus are dependant to continue as long as necessary, as determined by Rolands own actions. So the loops only continue as long as Roland "needs" them to, and as soon as he achieves what Gan has presented the opportunity for, the loops, or the spiral, as Letti likes to think of it, and which I like to think of it as well, will finally reach an end, and Roland will be allowed to continue loop/spiral free on his own continuing Ka.
    sometimes i become very conflicted about the meaning of the loop when thinking about this "theory-arc" (if you please, say thankya).

    it is the Tower, the voice of the Tower, that tells Roland "Death. But not for you Gunslinger, Never for you. You darkle. You tinct. May I be brutally frank? You go on." This is as Roland is reaching the top and is about to be pushed through to the desert. My focus is on the "Never for you." if Gan's intention was to give Roland more chances at saving himself, it would seem to contradict this statement since Gan would know whether it was possible for Roland to redeem himself or not. So to say "never" and then send him on his quest anyway seems rather cruel. In the end, Gan seems to have no hand in whether Roland repeats his quest or not. so, in this theory, the Tower and Gan cannot be one and the same. No one has outright said they are, however sometimes the will of the Tower and that of Gan are used interchangeably in these discussions (even King himself does this in the books, even though he presents varying degrees of contradictory evidence)

    that being said, it would be logical to conclude that the Tower wants something else from Roland. Perhaps the Tower wants Roland to be satisfied with the completion of his quest. The Tower, clearly aware on some level, knows Roland would only be disappointed with what he finds inside, when compared to the friendships, knowledge, wisdom, and growth he has found on the journey there. His "redemption" is letting go. Much as King himself emplores us to do at the end of OUR quest, when we have finally reached the Tower.

    again, much of this is predicated upon the theory arc in question. still an interesting thought though.


    Quote Originally Posted by pathoftheturtle View Post
    Do we all get such opportunities for redemption? If so, why should it be that Roland is to be saved by a different process? Do ours come to us through similar means, perhaps?

    like Roland, would we even know that we were on our own "salvation quest"....?
    Time is a face on the water.

  2. #777
    Traveler theplayer01 is on a distinguished road

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    After redressing the books again recently I can't help to think that Roland starts again in the dessert because that is when he died. Either the trap in the town finished him or just dying of thirst. If you look at each character they all have a moment when they could have been killed before coming to Rolands world. Suzanna in the civil rights arrest, Eddie at just about any point during his drug smuggling. My guess would be when the guy brought him the china white. And Jake of course getting hit by the car. They never remixes they moved on. Heck even with the ending for suzanna seem to me when she can let go of this life and go to heaven. So for Roland until he can let go and move on he is stuck.

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    That's an interesting thought provoking take on it theplayer01!

    Death certainly isn't the 'all finisher' that it seems to be in our world, considering Jake and Callahan, unless it happens in the Keystone Earth, and even that's not certain when Susannah meets the Toren brothers. (I know they are different versions, but in a way they seem to truly be the same people when considering the dreams, etc.) I even like to think Callahan is still out there somewhere walking the highways in hiding. There even seemed to be a suggestion of this in his death scene.

  4. #779
    Traveler Matt19 is on a distinguished road

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    Stephen King is the chracter in the books that created roland. therefore the loop has to start at the beginning of the first book where king first created the character. There was no roland before 'the man in black fled across the desert....' quite simple!

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    My idea is basically whenever he gets sent back, the choices he made and what he was able to let go of and realise what he did wrong gets resolved and he regains his humanity piece by piece. He realises friends and companions are to be cherished not used. And what he should have done before. Like the horn. He realised he should have grabbed the horn from Cuthberts body before he left Jericho Hill but he didnt. Maybe that was the first time in all the loops he ever made that connection. It may come to be that this time he will finally be able to finish the loop and be at peace since he has the horn.
    If you love me then love me..

  6. #781
    Along the Path of the Beam Doe is on a distinguished road Doe's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by Puck View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Letti View Post
    ... If there are many Eddies out there why wouldn't many Kings be out there? ...
    I prefer to think that there are, although it might contradict the logic of some of what we're told about Keystone Earth. Even if there are many Stephen Kings in many worlds writing about many other worlds, other authors of past and future still might have part in the songs of the beams, as well. I do tend to think that King himself would like to see future writers take interest.
    I cant really dissagree with that, Would be interesting to see other authors take on it

  7. #782
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    I actually have a new bit of fan fiction that takes up the story where it left off. Tell me what you think.

    Spoiler:
    The Man In Black fled across the desert, and the Gunslinger followed.... yaddah,yaddah,yaddah....plot development...character development....something about a train....new characters......tense moments....backstory.......something about wolves......a somewhat awkward, unnecessary installment....tragedy.....climax....catharsis.... .The Man In Black fled across the desert, and the Gunslinger followed.
    The End.
    Sloth Love Chunk

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    Traveler anima13 is on a distinguished road anima13's Avatar

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    Has the concept of Eternal Return already been discussed? I don't wanna go through thousands of post right now so I thought I'd ask.

  10. #785
    damned and saved Letti will become famous soon enough Letti will become famous soon enough Letti's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by anima13 View Post
    Has the concept of Eternal Return already been discussed? I don't wanna go through thousands of post right now so I thought I'd ask.
    What do you mean by 'Eternal Return' exactly? I am really sorry if the answer is very obvious.
    Welcome to the site.

    Roland would have understood.

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    damned and saved Letti will become famous soon enough Letti will become famous soon enough Letti's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by Matt19 View Post
    Stephen King is the chracter in the books that created roland. therefore the loop has to start at the beginning of the first book where king first created the character. There was no roland before 'the man in black fled across the desert....' quite simple!
    King didn't create Roland. King is the wordslinger who spreads the story of Roland, the last gunslinger and this way he protects the Tower and the Beams. King is no creator. Not in the book. If I remember well it's written down many times.

    Roland would have understood.

  12. #787
    Traveler anima13 is on a distinguished road anima13's Avatar

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    Oh, I've been lurking around here for a long time. Thanks.

    Eternal Return (AKA Eternal Recurrence)

    In addition, the philosophical concept of eternal recurrence was addressed by Arthur Schopenhauer. It is a purely physical concept, involving no supernatural reincarnation, but the return of beings in the same bodies. Time is viewed as being not linear but cyclical.

    ~Source: Wikipedia.

  13. #788
    Army of the 12 Monkeys pathoftheturtle is a glorious beacon of light pathoftheturtle is a glorious beacon of light pathoftheturtle is a glorious beacon of light pathoftheturtle is a glorious beacon of light pathoftheturtle is a glorious beacon of light pathoftheturtle is a glorious beacon of light pathoftheturtle's Avatar

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    Not in so many words, to my knowledge, but we have often discussed philosophically how this concept and related ones apply to TDT, and vice versa.
    Here's an interesting thread: Is it possible that LIFE is like that...?!?!


    Also, you might like to read overhoser's thoughts on incompossibility, here.

  14. #789
    Traveler johnnyonthespot1 is on a distinguished road

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    Quote Originally Posted by Matt19 View Post
    Stephen King is the chracter in the books that created roland. therefore the loop has to start at the beginning of the first book where king first created the character. There was no roland before 'the man in black fled across the desert....' quite simple!
    Actually, I think the simplest explanation is this: "The man in black fled across the desert, and the gunslinger followed" is an incredibly cool line that readers have cited and repeated for decades. King fell back onto this line because he simply couldn't figure out any other way to end the series.

    I hate to say it but I really think this is the true explanation for the ending. Sorry, I just finished reading DT7 for the first time and I am supremely disappointed (although the coda was hardly the worst sin in this final installment).

  15. #790
    Traveler Sefear is on a distinguished road Sefear's Avatar

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    I just finished the series a month ago and I never thought it was a moral thing on "saving Roland's soul or changing things like dropping Jake".
    My personal belief is that Roland has to redo his quest on a new level of the tower every time he enters the loop until he saves it on all the major levels of the multiverse. (and I think there is a keystone earth on each of those levels). Once he's saved the tower on every level then he can finally enter the top room and meet his destiny.

    Remember Walter's speech "there are an infinite number of worlds, and our universe might only be a small speck of grass in a much grander scheme."

    "Battles that last 5 minutes spawn legends that live a thousand years"

  16. #791
    The Tenant Jean has a brilliant future Jean has a brilliant future Jean has a brilliant future Jean has a brilliant future Jean has a brilliant future Jean has a brilliant future Jean has a brilliant future Jean has a brilliant future Jean has a brilliant future Jean has a brilliant future Jean has a brilliant future Jean's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sefear View Post
    I just finished the series a month ago and I never thought it was a moral thing on "saving Roland's soul or changing things like dropping Jake".
    My personal belief is that Roland has to redo his quest on a new level of the tower every time he enters the loop until he saves it on all the major levels of the multiverse. (and I think there is a keystone earth on each of those levels).
    ... until he is replaced by a mechanism which will do the same more efficiently. What's, according to you, the point of having a live man as the savior of the Tower?

    Ask not what bears can do for you, but what you can do for bears. (razz)
    When one is in agreement with bears one is always correct. (mae)

    bears are back!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

  17. #792
    Traveler Sefear is on a distinguished road Sefear's Avatar

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    Not sure if I understand what your saying but yea I'm suggesting Roland is the savior of the Tower. No offense but I don't know how a machine will be able to replace the gunslinger and what he did during his quest, or how you came up with that idea?

    "Battles that last 5 minutes spawn legends that live a thousand years"

  18. #793
    shrewd and knavish sprite flaggwalkstheline will become famous soon enough flaggwalkstheline's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by Letti View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Matt19 View Post
    Stephen King is the chracter in the books that created roland. therefore the loop has to start at the beginning of the first book where king first created the character. There was no roland before 'the man in black fled across the desert....' quite simple!
    King didn't create Roland. King is the wordslinger who spreads the story of Roland, the last gunslinger and this way he protects the Tower and the Beams. King is no creator. Not in the book. If I remember well it's written down many times.
    that, to me, is the series' greatest accomplishment. The complete blurring of fiction and reality.
    if the worlds gonna end then let's get it over with, i got shit to do

  19. #794
    Gunslinger Apprentice sullivan19 is on a distinguished road sullivan19's Avatar

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    I look at this from two sides.

    First, it's the point where we all started our journey, including SK as author. I started with the revised version, so picked up with the momentary dizziness, the point Roland enters himself via the the Door at the top of the Tower, so it all makes sense to me to go back to that point. I actually read the first few pages of The Gunslinger as soon as I read the last of The Dark Tower.

    Second, through the eyes of the character, it is THE point (IMO) where Rolands journey really kicks on and its all or nothing from this point out. Flagg/Walter suggests this during his final words when talking to Mordred in the Fedic Dogan. Its when he realised The Gunslinger was on his trail, thus the chase is on.

  20. #795
    Army of the 12 Monkeys pathoftheturtle is a glorious beacon of light pathoftheturtle is a glorious beacon of light pathoftheturtle is a glorious beacon of light pathoftheturtle is a glorious beacon of light pathoftheturtle is a glorious beacon of light pathoftheturtle is a glorious beacon of light pathoftheturtle's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sefear View Post
    Not sure if I understand what your saying but yea I'm suggesting Roland is the savior of the Tower. No offense but I don't know how a machine will be able to replace the gunslinger and what he did during his quest, or how you came up with that idea?
    I think the question was about the meaning of life. In some ways, I kind of like your theory myself, but if Gan is not at all concerned with moral things or saving souls, then isn't using people for any scheme nothing but cruel?

  21. #796
    The Tenant Jean has a brilliant future Jean has a brilliant future Jean has a brilliant future Jean has a brilliant future Jean has a brilliant future Jean has a brilliant future Jean has a brilliant future Jean has a brilliant future Jean has a brilliant future Jean has a brilliant future Jean has a brilliant future Jean's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by pathoftheturtle View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Sefear View Post
    Not sure if I understand what your saying but yea I'm suggesting Roland is the savior of the Tower. No offense but I don't know how a machine will be able to replace the gunslinger and what he did during his quest, or how you came up with that idea?
    I think the question was about the meaning of life. In some ways, I kind of like your theory myself, but if Gan is not at all concerned with moral things or saving souls, then isn't using people for any scheme nothing but cruel?
    Quite. Or, if we dismiss the anthropological aspect altogether, the difference between a person, endowed with soul, and any efficient mechanism becomes merely quantitative.

    Ask not what bears can do for you, but what you can do for bears. (razz)
    When one is in agreement with bears one is always correct. (mae)

    bears are back!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

  22. #797
    Army of the 12 Monkeys pathoftheturtle is a glorious beacon of light pathoftheturtle is a glorious beacon of light pathoftheturtle is a glorious beacon of light pathoftheturtle is a glorious beacon of light pathoftheturtle is a glorious beacon of light pathoftheturtle is a glorious beacon of light pathoftheturtle's Avatar

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    Piss on nineteen.

    "Keystone Earth" is redundant. Destiny is all.

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    Gunslinger Apprentice RolandLover will become famous soon enough RolandLover will become famous soon enough

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    You think that Roland going through 99 loops will always have Jake, Eddie, and Susannah?
    Spoiler:
    What if it's a new person he meets at the weigh station and he lets him/her die in the mines? I would hope it is a different person personally as we know all about this ka tet, and for me when Jake actually dies for the 3rd time in book 7, I didn't feel it as much as I should have because of that. I cried when Eddie died. with the Horn of the Eld, I think his "last" loop will be his redemption and not let the next "Jake" die in the mines.

  24. #799
    Gunslinger Apprentice The Road Virus will become famous soon enough The Road Virus will become famous soon enough The Road Virus's Avatar

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    Shouldn't all this stuff (or the thread title) have spoiler warnings?

    I am not effected because I have finished the series (and sorry if it is marked somehow and I am in the wrong) but what about those that have not? Big end-spoiling spoilers are a-foot in this thread

    Spoiler:
    they should probably be tagged
    "If you accept the expectations of others, especially negative ones, then you will never change the outcome" -Michael Jordan

  25. #800
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Road Virus View Post
    Shouldn't all this stuff (or the thread title) have spoiler warnings?
    No. It's TDT 7 forum, which means no spoilers for all the seven volumes.

    Ask not what bears can do for you, but what you can do for bears. (razz)
    When one is in agreement with bears one is always correct. (mae)

    bears are back!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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