Just like everyone of us!Originally Posted by Letti
Have you ever travelled to another world sent by the Tower?
As well as Roland, Jake, Eddie, Callahan, etc, etc... The tower connects all worlds, the fact that you make your travel by dying, by a door or by the tower doesn't matter; you are travelling by the tower
________________________________________________
"I will show you fear in a handful of dust"
Your answer is really romantic and I like itJust like everyone of us!Have you ever travelled to another world sent by the Tower?
As well as Roland, Jake, Eddie, Callahan, etc, etc... The tower connects all worlds, the fact that you make your travel by dying, by a door or by the tower doesn't matter; you are travelling by the towera lot still I don't know why you are that sure that the Tower cannot delete memories.
Roland would have understood.
I'm sorry, I can't follow what you said
Finished The Dark Tower at 6:03AM on December 21, 2009.
The man in black fled across the desert,
and the gunslinger followed.
Thank you, and that is because Jake, Eddie, Callahan, Walter, Jack (The Talisman) and all the travelers still retain theirs memories, even when they died in orden to travelYour answer is really romantic and I like it
If the Tower is saved, why is Gan thanking Roland putting him in a situation where he is condemned to do the same thing over and over again? And in the case that the loop is for punishment, why??? He saved the Tower!!!!I'm sorry, I can't follow what you said
About the pointless "point", if us, as readers/spectators, are side by side with Roland through is journey, it has to be the first one! Why? Will you read "The Dark Tower Series, Loop N° 1999". (maybe all will read it)
________________________________________________
"I will show you fear in a handful of dust"
Oh, I get it now! Thank you very much for the clarification
The Tower was saved, but in his quest to save it Roland lost his humanity. Gan is forcing him to return to his quest as both a punishment and a reward/thanks. I'll be discussing this in two different parts, one about the punishment and one about the thanks. The third part is in reference to your last statements.
Part 1: The punishment aspect comes into play in the sense that he has to go back through his journey multiple times; keep in mind, though: he only has to repeat the loop as many times as he makes it necessary for himself! If he can prove that he has indeed regained his humanity, then the loops will end, he will ascend the Tower, and he will find what is there.
Part 2: This "punishment" is actually Gan's way or rewarding and thanking Roland for his efforts. Gan realizes that Roland has sacrificed his life and his humanity in order to save all the universes, and Gan wants to give Roland salvation (his humanity) as a reward and a thank you. The problem is one cannot simply be given their humanity; it is something that one must find for themselves. So Gan does the next best thing: he/she gives Roland the ability and the tools with which to regain it. Whenever Roland finishes a loop and he has proven that he has regained some of his humanity, Gan gives him a new tool or object to make that next loop easier (in the case of this loop, the horn of Eld) so that he may eventually find his salvation.
Part 3: The loop written about in The Dark Tower books certainly does not have to be the first loop! My opinions about which loop it is is meaningless; the point is, there's nothing that suggests it has to be the first one. But whatever number it is is also meaningless for the story. The history of each loop is important regardless of which number Roland is on; each loop furthers his goal at regaining his humanity, and therefore events of each loop are equally important. The one we read about may, in fact, be the most important: at the end of it, Roland has all-but-completely regained his humanity, and he was given what seems to be the final tool to gain entrance to the top of the Tower.
By the way: I have no idea what this is: "The Dark Tower Series, Loop N° 1999"Is that a thread?
Finished The Dark Tower at 6:03AM on December 21, 2009.
The man in black fled across the desert,
and the gunslinger followed.
I read you and i understand your point.... BUT, in my experience, Gan (or your favorite god) doesn't exist, or in the case that he/she exists (wich is the TDT case), he/she could not care less for the human or is humanity, so, if Roland did what he had to do, why help him? He already save the universe, he becomes expendableOh, I get it now! Thank you very much for the clarification
The Tower was saved, but in his quest to save it Roland lost his humanity. Gan is forcing him to return to his quest as both a punishment and a reward/thanks. I'll be discussing this in two different parts, one about the punishment and one about the thanks. The third part is in reference to your last statements.
Part 1: The punishment aspect comes into play in the sense that he has to go back through his journey multiple times; keep in mind, though: he only has to repeat the loop as many times as he makes it necessary for himself! If he can prove that he has indeed regained his humanity, then the loops will end, he will ascend the Tower, and he will find what is there.
Part 2: This "punishment" is actually Gan's way or rewarding and thanking Roland for his efforts. Gan realizes that Roland has sacrificed his life and his humanity in order to save all the universes, and Gan wants to give Roland salvation (his humanity) as a reward and a thank you. The problem is one cannot simply be given their humanity; it is something that one must find for themselves. So Gan does the next best thing: he/she gives Roland the ability and the tools with which to regain it. Whenever Roland finishes a loop and he has proven that he has regained some of his humanity, Gan gives him a new tool or object to make that next loop easier (in the case of this loop, the horn of Eld) so that he may eventually find his salvation.
Part 3: The loop written about in The Dark Tower books certainly does not have to be the first loop! My opinions about which loop it is is meaningless; the point is, there's nothing that suggests it has to be the first one. But whatever number it is is also meaningless for the story. The history of each loop is important regardless of which number Roland is on; each loop furthers his goal at regaining his humanity, and therefore events of each loop are equally important. The one we read about may, in fact, be the most important: at the end of it, Roland has all-but-completely regained his humanity, and he was given what seems to be the final tool to gain entrance to the top of the Tower.
By the way: I have no idea what this is: "The Dark Tower Series, Loop N° 1999"
________________________________________________
"I will show you fear in a handful of dust"
I'm going to have to say I agree very much with SynysterSaint's theory.
If I may, Dagavidiab... If Gan wants Roland to save the Tower in the first place, this shows that Gan is somewhat of a loving deity. If we can assume this is so, it may be that in saving the Tower, Gan came to love Roland more than before he did so, and so the loop is less a punishment for losing his humanity, and more an act of pity on Gan's part. And an act of love. And through this act of love and pity, Gan presents to Roland multiple opportunities to save the Tower and his own humanity in the bargain. If I were Gan, I feel I may have done so in the same manner; each time Roland is able to salvage a small part of his humanity, Gan presents him with another gift to allow for him to save more of his own humanity, and thus, after X amount of loops, Roland will finally be able to continue on with "life as normal," for lack of a better term. The loops are determined to continue until Roland can reach the Tower with his full humanity intact, and thus are dependant to continue as long as necessary, as determined by Rolands own actions. So the loops only continue as long as Roland "needs" them to, and as soon as he achieves what Gan has presented the opportunity for, the loops, or the spiral, as Letti likes to think of it, and which I like to think of it as well, will finally reach an end, and Roland will be allowed to continue loop/spiral free on his own continuing Ka.
Random PM's are loved!
Call me Can.
Discord Tag: Can*/Tommy (They/Them pronouns)#5588
How do we know for sure that destroying the Tower in any of single one of these timelines really would destroy the multiverse? In Mid-World, they say that the Dark Tower there is the lynchpin of all the realities of the multiverse, driving them all towards an ordered destiny. Roland's quest was to find out if that is true. If he has indeed moved to another world, then it apparently is not. His kinsmen may have simply been mistaken in assuming that the multiverse revolved around themselves.
The word "universe" means everything together... but is there much actual validity to such a concept? In what sense are the obvious separations of individual things transcended? Isn't "oneness" even more meaningless in a multiverse?
Those who follow the DT series because they feel that Roland is a singular hero who will lead them to a vision of ultimate coherence are bound for disappointment, at least in this reality. The best which can be said is that there is yet hope that there is a Greater Dark Tower of a higher order that connects the tower that we saw him enter to one which truly is "Keystone."
Ah, quite a valid point, Path! You always know how to make me take a step back and do some serious thinking.
Random PM's are loved!
Call me Can.
Discord Tag: Can*/Tommy (They/Them pronouns)#5588
Thank you very much
You explained my theory better than I did! I like the way you explained why Gan would give Roland such a fate (I wouldn't have thought to bring love or pity into my explanation).
Finished The Dark Tower at 6:03AM on December 21, 2009.
The man in black fled across the desert,
and the gunslinger followed.
pathoftheturtle: you've given me quite a bit to think about. I'll post a response once I fully understand what you said; it's a good bit to take in all at once
Finished The Dark Tower at 6:03AM on December 21, 2009.
The man in black fled across the desert,
and the gunslinger followed.
Separate 'Versions'? *Spoiler! Don't read unless you have finished*
Now, since we know that
Spoiler:
Does that mean that every detail is repeated exactly? Or do things change each cycle? Perhaps some times Roland manages to kill Flagg in the Oz Castle or other times that Jake falls from the Lud Bridge orSpoiler:or whatever?
Or is it exactly the same each time?
A quick note: You don't need to worry about the spoiler tags in this thread; since you've posted it in the final book forum it is, by definition, a spoiler thread. No tags are needed (saves you some effort and makes it easier on us to read your posts).
If you'd like, check out this thread where we just started discussing this very question. I think you'll find some of the ideas posted very interesting (and horribly different
On a side note: I don't remember seeing you posting in any thread I've been in. I'm Matthew, a.k.a. SynysterSaint. Welcome to the site!
Finished The Dark Tower at 6:03AM on December 21, 2009.
The man in black fled across the desert,
and the gunslinger followed.
Hello mowque, I came to tell you the same thing
and now I shall add my welcome as well.
Thank matthew for being so helpfull....
.................................................. .......................
some one will now be around to move and or merge
this thread with the other one.
The answer is within
Ah, so this thread already exists!
Instead of debating the theology, I'd rather discuss the various 'alternative' universes that could occur. Would Roland drop Jake in every one? Would Roland manage to kill the Man in Black in some of them? Does the whole Ka-tet reach the Tower in some cases?
I thought very much as Candice did - it was a great pleasure reading your post, Little Princess, and I so wish you would post more in discussion threads! - with the exception of ka, of course, and my being more pessimistic; I always thought that at the real end of the journey Roland will die; am ready to consider this point of view too, though...
Ask not what bears can do for you, but what you can do for bears. (razz)
When one is in agreement with bears one is always correct. (mae)
bears are back!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Welcome, mowque.
If I could throw in my two cents, I don't think this question is quite the same as H_D_G's. Related, yes, but distinct. Ultimately, though, I expect that both will prove related to Many different Rolands.
If you want to talk about probable differences between the cycles, I personally feel that Roland will find the Way Station empty. Shouldn't the resolution of the Waste Lands paradox carry over?
Gan wants Roland to save the Tower because the Tower represents the nexus between all the "multiverses", all that has been created by Gan, if the Tower is destroyed, Gan loses all his toys and ant farms.
To me, the tower in this world is the "ultimate tower", in the "ultimate world", there isn't a part in one of the books where it is explained that if someone dies in Roland's world, there is no other world after that?
________________________________________________
"I will show you fear in a handful of dust"
In Stephen King's world, supposedly. Doesn't seem to preclude another version of Jake living in Susannah's new world, though.
If the Tower is just "Gan's body," then Gan wanting Roland to save it shows nothing more than self-interest. If the Tower represents the entire multiverse as opposed to complete non-existence, then it's an open question which is really preferable. Generally, being life-affirming means not just having a compulsion to survive, but rather, holding that life is good. However, what the Tower is supposed to represent is orderly structure, (the White, universal harmony) as opposed to heartless chaos. It's said that even if the Tower fell, the Prim would still be. Still, it is entirely conceivable that Gan doesn't really walk the walk.
That's what makes the question of this thread so critical: it's about the effect of what is being done with Roland upon the cosmos surrounding him. A crucial issue, I think, if it's true that Gan's main concern is how Roland failed to consider for himself how he was affecting others.
The diagram Letti provided here is a good chart of Roland's progress from his own personal perspective, but don't forget that various people he encounters in each cycle go off away from his curving path in every direction. What becomes of them?
Instituting Roland's cycle is the one action which we see the Tower actually perform, and it's hard to see what it contributes to order. If there is one world in which Patrick lives, and one in which he dies, that's a paradox; disharmony practically defined. Perhaps there is some method in this madness, though; we know little about the big picture. If it's true that Gan came to love Roland more when he saved the Tower, does that mean that he still loves the rest of us less? Do we all get such opportunities for redemption? If so, why should it be that Roland is to be saved by a different process? Do ours come to us through similar means, perhaps? Could it be that all of the universes circle back eventually to mirror Roland's motion, as a larger cycle within which his microcosmic quest takes place?
Love One Another
BTWThanks. I try.
I was very impressed by your post, as well. Sorry if that hasn't been obvious before now. Sometimes I get so excited about the content of a discussion that I forget to show my feelings for those involved. Major failing of mine, actually: I have a gift for deep thinking, but I'm often lost when trying simply to relate with people.
Last edited by pathoftheturtle; 03-30-2010 at 10:38 AM. Reason: :) top-ada-page!
You mean, because Jake died in the Keystone world? I think that just means that our Jake isn't coming back, that death won't be doorway to another world for him, but I don't think it precludes other Jakes continuing to exist in other worlds.
If the keystone Jake had died (and I think it's clear our Jake isn't the keystone Jake, if he exists, although they might have become the same. I assumed the Jake who was followed during the todash sequence was that version but I might be wrong.) then maybe that would kill or unmake them all, but I'm not sure of that. Especially as keystone Jake and our Jake might very well have merged into one person (albeit with ours with right of veto since he doesn't mention any mixed memories).
Explaining my 'merged Jake' theory would be a bit of a tangent for this thread, but if you're interested I'll post it (although I know I've written it already. I can't pinpoint the post though it was quite a while ago).
Anyway, back on course: If I understand the spiral theory correctly (and I might not) a new keystone world is generated on another level of the tower every time Roland is sent back right? I subscribe more to the Roland in cycle theory rather than the spiral theory mainly due to that scene with the Three Kings. They state that this was the Tower Keystone world is the only world for which the Tower exists as a tower. Sure they lie, but they had no real reason for lying about that. Of course they could be wrong, but I don't think so. Remember also how Roland states that in his world, even the past is in motion rearranging itself in other ways? Part of that might be due to Author's retcons, etc, (the whole Walter,Marten, Flagg thing springs to mind here) but again, the loop could be causing some of that too as Roland makes other choices in the past.
Please note though, I don't think everyone else resets when Roland does, otherwise Susannah's ka with the Toren brothers would be pretty short lived. All other lives go on, (albeit their timelines might change due to different things Roland does each cycle) and Roland is on the temporal hamster wheel so to speak. At least for a while. (Although the concept of 'while' is a bit odd when time-loops are concerned. Until he gets things -himself- right, is what I mean.)
As for whether or not Gan is a caring deity or at least one interested in his creation (for good or ill) rather than just the deistic version that creates and leaves them to it... I think he is the former.
The very fact that Gan speaks to Roland at the end while he is ascending the Tower suggests Gan's got a point to make. The fact he sends Roland back with the horn suggests that to me too, whether it's for Roland's redemption or punishment (or a bit of both) he's certainly taking an interest. If his interest were purely for self preservation, why bother since he was saved at that point?
Experimentation would be another possibility, as has been stated elsewhere, but when considering the horn (which granted, by itself could just be the bit of cheese to keep Roland Rat pedalling away there) and Susannah's reward suggests mercy to me. Also considering the nature of that other incarnation of the Tower, the Rose, and the sense of well being and rightness, whiteness that it exudes, that all things will be well, I'd say Gan/The Tower/The Rose is far from uncaring. Albeit his Tower persona is hard as stone.
True, but then he states that the past cannot be changed in Stephen King’s world. At least one of these statements must be false, if these two worlds are respectively the same two worlds every time, because Roland takes actions in the latter world which affect its course. Can he be expected to always act in the same way there when his own past is different? The whole point of the second statement, in fact, was that he could visit that particular when and where only ONE time, wasn’t it?
If the timelines of other people change, due to Roland, then what does it mean to say that “they” don’t reset? How can their lives go on if everything in their lives and about their lives is subject to revision? Again, the loop appears to cause more chaos than anything attempted by the Crimson King did.
However, we don’t really know what the original state of things was: Maybe it is the Tower’s weakening which led to all of this universal indeterminacy, and Roland’s spiral really does work as a cure. It could be that new “keystone” worlds are not generated for each iteration, but rather, that pre-existing additional (so-called keystone) worlds are reached by Roland from lower levels; possibly, all worlds are equally important and mutually interdependent, despite all of the various characters’ melodramatic assumptions regarding the centrality of the particular actions which they had to undertake this time. (Presumably, each and every version of them would make those same assumptions, repeatedly.)
If it is true that, unlike Roland and/or Roland’s world, Keystone Earth cannot cycle, then that begs the question of why it is that its duplicates don’t count. In what sense are they irrelevant? Where do the many Earths come from, anyway? What is their relationship? How are they arranged, if not in a cycle of their own? Resurrection through shifting timelines need not contradict the concept of the spirit of Jake living on any more or less than resurrection through shifting time would. Therefore, given that other Jakes do survive, what really makes Keystone Jake’s death so significant? How can any Jake be not “our” Jake if all worlds are connected? I think that that is just what cosmic order means.
On the other hand, if that one Earth IS the one and only real Keystone world, then Roland is now living in a mockery of true existence. Every other version of Earth that he might visit will be a mere shadow of the one which he has saved already. It would not actually matter whether he managed to protect such an alternate: resting on the keystone, it would survive even if he failed… or perhaps its destruction would simply have no real effect on the rest of the multiverse.
Either of those possibilities would nullify the moral issue of the cycles perpetuating the danger to all of the real people, (assuming that any people truly are real!) yet the necessity of Gan’s plan for Roland remains questionable.How is indirect manipulation really different from clear intervention? Does a rat in a maze have more free will than a rat in a cage? Could Gan really not have simply met with Roland to just tell him to repent? What is it that would have been so wrong with that, exactly? It must be something pretty serious, if casting countless illusionary universes is preferable.
However, that would be a natural problem anyway if Gan has really invested Stephen King with sweeping powers of reality control. I think it all stems from a metaphor. For King, it's unavoidable that he himself is intermediary to Roland's quest for God. How can fiction reach truth? Thus, the character's ascension is mirrored by an ongoing creative process wherein Gan decends through a man's imagination and selectively redeem worlds of fantasy from the Prim of infinite potential to expand the boundaries of existence. It's an interesting concept.
That was beautifully spoken, pathoftheturtle.How is indirect manipulation really different from clear intervention? Does a rat in a maze have more free will than a rat in a cage? Could Gan really not have simply met with Roland to just tell him to repent? What is it that would have been so wrong with that, exactly? It must be something pretty serious, if casting countless illusionary universes is preferable.
However, that would be a natural problem anyway if Gan has really invested Stephen King with sweeping powers of reality control. I think it all stems from a metaphor. For King, it's unavoidable that he himself is intermediary to Roland's quest for God. How can fiction reach truth? Thus, the character's ascension is mirrored by an ongoing creative process wherein Gan decends through a man's imagination and selectively redeem worlds of fantasy from the Prim of infinite potential to expand the boundaries of existence. It's an interesting concept.
But you see, it doesn't matter how Gan intervenes with Roland; all that matters is that he does it. Roland cannot and could not possibly find his humanity and gain salvation without some intervention. Think of it as a heroin addict, if you will. You cannot simply resolve their addiction and forgo any of the withdrawal symptoms. The best you can do is be their for them and present them the opportunity; they are the one that must go through the course of cleansing. Roland's course is much like the heroin cleansing he had to help Eddie perform; only this time, the roles are somewhat reversed. Gan needs to hold Roland's hand and show him the way to gaining salvation, but in the end it must be Roland who performs. Gan cannot grant Roland his humanity and salvation any more than Roland could erase Eddie's withdrawal symptoms.
I'll have to think some more about your last points. I hadn't thought of it that way before; well done.
Finished The Dark Tower at 6:03AM on December 21, 2009.
The man in black fled across the desert,
and the gunslinger followed.
In King's world (the Keystone Earth) yes. I've a theory that every cycle Roland goes through intersects with a later time period of the keystone world. That might explain those things never , er, explained, like Cuthbert/Eddie turning up to save young King, or even the message left with Calvin Tower.*True, but then he states that the past cannot be changed in Stephen King’s world.
I see how that would be confusing though, with the loop rather than the spiral as it creates quite a paradox. Maybe those events having happened in the Keystone world is enough and is written in stone so to speak even if those events are revised Tower-side.
Yeah, I'm not convinced either. Heh.
*Although I think that last one is more likely to be Roland's predecessors, maybe even Steven Deschain. It would be a weird twist if a ka-tet member from the previous loop were sending messages though wouldn't it?
Aye, that would be pretty weird. But I like it
Finished The Dark Tower at 6:03AM on December 21, 2009.
The man in black fled across the desert,
and the gunslinger followed.
Posting Permissions
Reply With Quote
