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Thread: That Thing, You Can Only Talk About If You've Finished the Series

  1. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Letti View Post
    And do you think it's possible he doesn't always have to start in the desert or it's a law?
    (We know the loops change.)
    Oh I definitely think that it can change, but it will only change determining on how far he is in his quest.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LadyHitchhiker View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Letti View Post
    And do you think it's possible he doesn't always have to start in the desert or it's a law?
    (We know the loops change.)
    Oh I definitely think that it can change, but it will only change determining on how far he is in his quest.
    What do you mean by that? So how can it change?

    Roland would have understood.

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    Quote Originally Posted by R_of_G View Post
    I too wonder why the desert, particularly for those who feel the loop is some kind of "do-over" that Roland has to get "right" before he is released from the cycle. As far as that goes, I think Lisa's answer is as good as any.

    For me, not necessarily believing that the loops are the same every time, I think there are two reasons of "why the desert." (1) I think the only thing that is the same is Walter and the desert is where he found Walter's trail, and (2) with the cyclical ending, King wanted to bring things back to the literal beginning of the series.

    Go read my opinion in the "The Tower" thread to see why I don't believe the loop is different each time and see if you could agree with that point of view.

    Since I truly believe that King intended the loop to be the same everytime, there must be a specific reason as to why Roland resets there every time. Personally, I think it's because it signifies the beginning of Roland's "redemption" (hence the subtitle, unless I'm totally wrong about that, which is more than likely possible.), in other woprds, the point in which Roland will begin to make very key desicions in his journy; decisions that will effect the overall outcome of the quest; will he let Jake fall? Will he treat his tet members with more respect than the Tower? Will he learn to value the right thins in life? These are all decisions he makes after the desert, so that is my guess as to why he starts there. I realize there are decisions he made wrong before that moment, as well, but obviousely Gan has changed those choices this tiem around, I mean, Roland has the horn now, right?
    .

  4. #29
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    i don't think the cycle is changed, he's just more aware and prepared. I think everything King describes him having at the beginning are parts of himself of his history that he'd earned back. That is why at the end of the first loop he was given the horn of the eld because he learned enough Gan awarded it with him. Ka wold make no sense if the loop changed. Roland only understand Ka and destiny because, subconciously, way deep down in his soul he knows he's done it all before but I think he denies it to himself, doesn't even acknowledge that little voice, just so he can see the tower again. Roland just doesn't know he can ignore Ka. When the tower falls, the breakers destroy it, he is free. He will never reach the tower with anyone or anything except his guns.

    Now as for his ka-tet? I believe they always change but always play the same role. Instead of Eddie it will be Timothy and he'll be hooked on meth instead of heroin etc. I think the ending with his Ka-tet in New York together, happy, is their reward for helping Roland get one step closer to redemption.

  5. #30
    Gunslinger Apprentice Dud-a-chum? is on a distinguished road Dud-a-chum?'s Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mattrick View Post
    i don't think the cycle is changed, he's just more aware and prepared. I think everything King describes him having at the beginning are parts of himself of his history that he'd earned back. That is why at the end of the first loop he was given the horn of the eld because he learned enough Gan awarded it with him. Ka wold make no sense if the loop changed. Roland only understand Ka and destiny because, subconciously, way deep down in his soul he knows he's done it all before but I think he denies it to himself, doesn't even acknowledge that little voice, just so he can see the tower again. Roland just doesn't know he can ignore Ka. When the tower falls, the breakers destroy it, he is free. He will never reach the tower with anyone or anything except his guns.

    Now as for his ka-tet? I believe they always change but always play the same role. Instead of Eddie it will be Timothy and he'll be hooked on meth instead of heroin etc. I think the ending with his Ka-tet in New York together, happy, is their reward for helping Roland get one step closer to redemption.
    Once again, I dissagree. You just said the loop didn't change, but then said that ka-tet is different each time. I don't see where that makes any sense, maybe to can go into greater detail about it so I can understand what you are saying better?

    King himself said that he thinks Roland will eventually reach the ultimate top of the Tower for real, but you seem to not believe that. This doesn't make sense to me, since the whole reason why Roland is looping is because he hasn't fully learned his lesson yet. If he is never meant to reach the top of the wTower, then what is his destiny ultimately? To remain trapped in the loop for eternity? I refuse to believe that. Maybe because I'm too optomistic about things, but I just don't think that is Roland's destiny.

    As for the alternate tet thing: I personally believe that it is always the same mebers, because they ultimately end up in the same place. The way I look at it, the ka-tet only went through the journey once, but Roland is experiencing that same journey over and over again, not with different players, but with the same ones, because he is the only one stuck in the loop.

    That's just my opinion, though. I would really like to hear more detail on your theory, as it is the most original one I have heard in awhile.
    .

  6. #31
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    I don't think the Tet changes either because I agree with this;
    Roland is experiencing that same journey over and over again, not with different players, but with the same ones, because he is the only one stuck in the loop.
    The rest of the ka-tet will not experience that moment of realisation and repetition that Roland does, because its the loop itself has been taken out of the normal passage of time, so that it may repeat until Roland gets it right.
    Each it time it plays out is also the first time it plays out - but each time Roland is momentarily taken out of the loop at the end into real time to allow him to comprehend his fate and then inserted back at the start of the loop. Cruel!

    But I think Dud-a-Chum?, that it is correct to describe the loops as different because even a minute change makes a difference. As you also agreed, Roland had made progression to be awarded the horn, obviously meaning that the loop we read about in the series had in some way changed from the previous loop (ie, Roland's awareness of his mistakes.) The portion of time itself may be the same, but the events that occur within the time frame can be subject to change, actually, they have to be subject to change or there would be no point to Roland's lesson.

  7. #32
    Roont Matt will become famous soon enough Matt's Avatar

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    Each it time it plays out is also the first time it plays out -
    I totally agree with that.
    The kindness of close friends is like a warm blanket

  8. #33
    Gunslinger Apprentice Dud-a-chum? is on a distinguished road Dud-a-chum?'s Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by Darkthoughts View Post
    I don't think the Tet changes either because I agree with this;
    Roland is experiencing that same journey over and over again, not with different players, but with the same ones, because he is the only one stuck in the loop.
    The rest of the ka-tet will not experience that moment of realisation and repetition that Roland does, because its the loop itself has been taken out of the normal passage of time, so that it may repeat until Roland gets it right.
    Each it time it plays out is also the first time it plays out - but each time Roland is momentarily taken out of the loop at the end into real time to allow him to comprehend his fate and then inserted back at the start of the loop. Cruel!

    But I think Dud-a-Chum?, that it is correct to describe the loops as different because even a minute change makes a difference. As you also agreed, Roland had made progression to be awarded the horn, obviously meaning that the loop we read about in the series had in some way changed from the previous loop (ie, Roland's awareness of his mistakes.) The portion of time itself may be the same, but the events that occur within the time frame can be subject to change, actually, they have to be subject to change or there would be no point to Roland's lesson.
    No, no, I agree with you. I was simply stating that the loop as whole is the same loop, not that the outcome couldn't be slightly altered everytinme based on specific things Roland does. All I'm saying is that as a whole, the loop is the same, because Roland is the only one who loops, so the ka-tet, location and circumstances in general will be the same everytime, however, how Roland reacts to those circumstances may alter the outcome slightly, but it doesn't mean that it is completely different everytime. I mean, personally, I think when the loops first started happening, Roland probably didn't succeed everytime, but it didn't matter, because Gan isn't gonna let him die, so what happens if Roland dies or loses all of his ka-tet too early (Like I am sure it happened a few times)? Well, he starts right back at the desert again, unaware, lol. At least that's how I've always looked at it.

    Think of it this way: Some circumstances along the way may not always arise at the same exact time or place depending on how the ka-tet gets to that point each time, but Ka will nonetheless see them happen at one point or another. Why? Same reason I believe the tet is the same every time, because if the loop were even slightly altered, Roland would make completely different mistakes this time around, therefore not learning from the mistakes he made in the last loop, see what I'm saying? I think Ka makes it so that Roland experiences more or less the same thing each time, provided some small differences here and there.

    Basically, I am saying that I agree with you 100% on this, and am glad to find someone else on here who feels as strongly about this point of view as I do, .
    .

  9. #34
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    I was going to write at the end of that post "or do you mean the same as I've just written anyway?" but didn't...I had a feeling we were agreeing.

    I don't know about you, but when I'm thinking and replying about this stuff my mind starts going off on tangents whilst I'm typing - like something will click and I'll be like "Aha, so that also means...!" which is all good in the long run, but doesn't always make for coherent posts

  10. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dud-a-chum? View Post
    Once again, I dissagree. You just said the loop didn't change, but then said that ka-tet is different each time. I don't see where that makes any sense, maybe to can go into greater detail about it so I can understand what you are saying better?
    The loop doesn't need to change, but his ka-tet can be different.

    King himself said that he thinks Roland will eventually reach the ultimate top of the Tower for real, but you seem to not believe that. This doesn't make sense to me, since the whole reason why Roland is looping is because he hasn't fully learned his lesson yet. If he is never meant to reach the top of the wTower, then what is his destiny ultimately? To remain trapped in the loop for eternity? I refuse to believe that. Maybe because I'm too optomistic about things, but I just don't think that is Roland's destiny.
    I'm not sure how you got this? I'm saying he attained the horn because he learned a lesson. Next time he goes through perhaps he'll get something to remind him he can change. What I meant was Roland always knows he's in this loop, in his soul to be corny. That is how he seems to know everything because he's experienced it before. He wants to get to the top of the tower so bad because mayhap next time he goes through that door he won't end up back in the desert. Does he conciously know this? No, he doesn't. I think if he knows the tower falls his chance at redemption fades as well.

    As for the alternate tet thing: I personally believe that it is always the same mebers, because they ultimately end up in the same place. The way I look at it, the ka-tet only went through the journey once, but Roland is experiencing that same journey over and over again, not with different players, but with the same ones, because he is the only one stuck in the loop.
    I think Roland has a new and all the same kat-et minus name/appearance each time. He needs people to help him, to be sacrificed, to teach Roland a lesson. In return, they are given a happy life together without memory of Roland and Mid-world. Notice how their name's were all Toren which we learn means 'Tower'. The tower gave them that life and that name.

    Think about it. Jake hated his parents and his life. Oddeta was full of issues and was generally miserable and Eddie was a stone cold junkie with a lot of bad memories. They are all rewarded for the life they have all yearned for. Roland, can't seem to get his part done.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mattrick View Post
    I think Roland has a new and all the same kat-et minus name/appearance each time.
    But if this were the case then Eddie, Suze and Jake would not be saved and redeemed from their old lives.
    Because, if you're saying he picks a different ka-tet each time, the previous ka-tet will still be existing in the loop as they were before Roland drew them because the loop is repeating in the same time frame every time.
    Eddie, Suze and Jake aren't aware of the repetition because they never leave the loop.

  12. #37
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    I think each time Roland loops, he is given the same choices to make. Whether or not there's a change in the loop would depend on the choice he would make. Now, some choices, such as choosing to save the beam, get to the Tower, I can't ever imagine him choosing differently... but there are other smaller choices that Roland may choose differently thus, altering the loop.

    That being said, how MUCH the story would change... I dunno
    There's a fine line between stupid and clever.

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    I agree with all of that O. Well, you are The Messiah, its hard not to!

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    that's right! Or prepare to be smitten!


    (I'm an angry Messiah)
    There's a fine line between stupid and clever.

    You can't really dust for vomit.

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    Roont Matt will become famous soon enough Matt's Avatar

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    Omnipotent should be one of our moods
    The kindness of close friends is like a warm blanket

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    I'm being agreed with . . .I think! I'm a happy man today!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Matt View Post
    Omnipotent should be one of our moods
    don't we already have "bearish"?

    Ask not what bears can do for you, but what you can do for bears. (razz)
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  18. #43
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    Good point
    The kindness of close friends is like a warm blanket

  19. #44
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    Hello gang,

    Having just finished book 7 I'll jump in with my own perspective. I agree with Odetta here. Since I am a Buddhist I saw the ending through those terms. At the heart of the matter comes attachment. For Roland, that attachment is the Tower. He has spent so long and so much in finding it, and dreamed so long of climbing to the top of it, that little else matters.

    It's hard for us to see this, because in our story, that SK presents to us, Roland has changed to a great degree. In my opinion, the whole key to it lies within those few pages when Roland is sucked through the last door and into the desert once again. He hears the voices of his mother, and teachers, and other loved ones. What they say give the whole thing away.

    Roland has taken on the Tower as an obsession, but more so that that. He has moved beyond obsession into justification. Meaning, that while he is absorbed by the Tower, and his need to get to it, he justifies it to himself and to others by masking it with "duty", "promises", "the White".

    The latter is the worst of them all. Roland is presented, and it's said without much of an imagination, nor sense of humor. Roland takes his defender of the White to an extreme. He thinks that that Tower is the White. While this is true in a literal sense, it misses the mark. The White is also love, friendship, community, sharing...in other words, all the values and traits that make humans humans. Because Roland thinks without imagination, or the ability to stretch his mind to the figurative, he is lost to a symbol.

    His attachment is what roots him to a cycle. By chasing the Tower at the expense of what makes humans and all of society worth while, he chases stone and a god half believed in. So, I believe that the Tower we see in the book is indeed Roland's Tower. One that Roland himself has made. One that would be different if any of us entered into it, because Roland cannot see his mother, trapped by her faults, his father - duty, and many others.

    The whole book, Wolves, is showing Roland that ending are possible, even when the road has been long. Calla Bryn Sturgis is a picture for Roland to see. But the attachment to the Tower pushes out everything but duty, and mission. He fails to see the love and the community all around him many times in the series. At least in his heart.

    When he is sent back to the desert, we not only complete the wheel, do ya kennit, but we also are shown that the Tower (or Gan) has something worthwhile for Roland. That he is as close to enlightenment as he's ever been. Seeing the world for what it is, still filled with love and community, that he needs to return again and try it all over.

    There would be no sense in sending Roland back farther as he was his own man yet. Roland was a Gunslinger in service to Gilead and busy defending it. While caught up in a war, he had to make decisions in those parameters of war. But chasing Walter, he is free to go this way or that, at least in theory. He could, at any time have gone from his course, and simply lived life until the end. We all die, we all break down, we all become dust. The desert I think represents Roland in the beginning. Empty, just going on, step after step, dry; devoid of anything except his obsession.
    "...quiet as despair, I turn’d from him..."


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  20. #45
    damned and saved Letti will become famous soon enough Letti's Avatar

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    The desert is like a harsh symbol that Roland cannot understand... I like it.

    Roland would have understood.

  21. #46
    Big Coffin Hunter jayson is on a distinguished road

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    To the Dark Tower Came, I may not agree word for word with all of your theories, but they are VERY interesting and VERY well thought out. I'm glad you chose to share them with us.

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    I say thankee, sais.

    Agreement isn't a requirement. Wouldn't be much of a board if that was the case.
    "...quiet as despair, I turn’d from him..."


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  23. #48
    damned and saved Letti will become famous soon enough Letti's Avatar

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    Well said folks.

    Roland would have understood.

  24. #49
    Big Coffin Hunter jayson is on a distinguished road

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    Quote Originally Posted by To The Dark Tower Came View Post
    I say thankee, sais.

    Agreement isn't a requirement. Wouldn't be much of a board if that was the case.
    Absolutely. The more difference we have the more interesting it becomes. I think the ambiguous ending was a major gift from Sai King bc it provokes just this type of conversation.

  25. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by LadyHitchhiker View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Letti View Post
    And do you think it's possible he doesn't always have to start in the desert or it's a law?
    (We know the loops change.)
    Oh I definitely think that it can change, but it will only change determining on how far he is in his quest.
    I think perhaps that the further along in his quest he becomes, the shorter his loop will be, until finally, he gets it right, and then he will end up where he's supposed to.

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