Walter General Discussion: The Gunslinger **spoilers

[Wuducynn]

Well finish your re-read of the series and see if you still hold that opinion of Walter.

[LadyHitchhiker]

I'm working on it

[Wuducynn]

Well what the hell are you doing on here?? You should be reading the series!

[LadyHitchhiker]

I can multitask!!!!!!!!!!!

[Brice]

Didn't Walter say he feared an accounting or a reckoning in The Gunslinger when Roland and he held palaver?

[Wuducynn]

Yeah, he did. "The ultimate bad-ass" said so.

[Brice]

Well, one doesn't negate the other...as you suggested earlier. In fact sometimes it is one's fear itself that makes them brave or couragous or "a bad-ass"

[Wuducynn]

Well, one doesn't negate the other...as you suggested earlier. In fact sometimes it is one's fear itself that makes them brave or couragous or "a bad-ass"

I know, that was directed to Liz.

[Brice]

Well it's definitely addressing her point as I understand it of Walter/Flagg being a badass and thus not being afraid.

[LadyHitchhiker]

Yes but even him saying so may have just been a mind-game.. or perhaps Walter had grown soft in that incarnation as he moved onto reincarnate to a different character?

[Brice]

Still if he can feel fear in any incarnation than he feels fear.

[Wuducynn]

*sigh*

[LadyHitchhiker]

Again, I'm not convinced in that book that he was truly worried about Roland, but maybe it will appear in my reread of the other books...

[wiccangdess13]

I also think Walter fears Rolands inability to grasp the full picture. He is slow and more black and white/ cut and dry and I think Walter is fearful of how Roland interputs "answers". Does that make sense? It does in my mind

[BillyxRansom]

My interpretation is very similar to wiccang's. Walter fears that Roland doesn't understand the whole picture.

[Letti]

My interpretation is very similar to wiccang's. Walter fears that Roland doesn't understand the whole picture.

But why the hell would he be afraid of such a thing?

To sum up my thoughts: I have no idea what he meant by that statement but for my part I don't believe any of his words. He is lying and joking even when he is asking. That's Walter.
If he hadn't become the right hand of the Crimson King he would have become a great politician.

[Powdered Water]

Interesting topic. I'm new here so forgive me if someone has already thrown this out.

I've been thinking lately that Walter or any of the random creations of Walter are all a part of Roland, what I mean to say is they were his anti-Roland. And perhaps not even real as in corporeal real. Much like how Roland isn't real. Does that make sense?

Spoiler:

It's an infinity circle yeah?

They spend the whole series on opposite sides: One trying to reach an unattainable goal and the other trying to keep him from getting there. So in the end of the story they both get what they want but they also get nothing. Does that make sense?

[Brainslinger]

I think Walter truly does fear Roland in a way. Evil entities (even those who are powerful) have much to fear.

However, I don't think he particularly meant anything substantial by that statement concerning being afraid of Roland's idea of answers. I think it's one of those terms of phrase that shouldn't be taken literally. Kind of like me say "It's like this, I'm afraid". That doesn't mean I'm actually scared.

I think Walter is just saying "The answers you expect won't be the ones you'll get."

[Wuducynn]

Interesting topic. I'm new here so forgive me if someone has already thrown this out.

I've been thinking lately that Walter or any of the random creations of Walter are all a part of Roland, what I mean to say is they were his anti-Roland. And perhaps not even real as in corporeal real. Much like how Roland isn't real. Does that make sense?

Spoiler:

It's an infinity circle yeah?

They spend the whole series on opposite sides: One trying to reach an unattainable goal and the other trying to keep him from getting there. So in the end of the story they both get what they want but they also get nothing. Does that make sense?

I see what you're saying but I don't agree that Walter is just a part of Roland and not real in a corporeal sense. Do you have some kind of "in saga" evidence to point to for your assertion?

[Wuducynn]

If he hadn't become the right hand of the Crimson King he would have become a great politician.

Good call Letti!

[Powdered Water]

I see what you're saying but I don't agree that Walter is just a part of Roland and not real in a corporeal sense. Do you have some kind of "in saga" evidence to point to for your assertion?

Not really, at this point its just a theory I'm kicking around. I've only read the last 3 books twice each so at this point I may just need to go back re read the whole saga to help me refine my theory. I think part of it may be sound though. Perhaps Walter was in fact a "real" entity in Rolands world but really, what does that mean? Was Roland "real"?

[Matt of Gilead]

Walter's incarnations, RF or otherwise, seem to have their own personalities. Randal Flagg behaves differently than Walter O'Dim, who behaves differently than Martin Broadcloak, etc.

However, I'm not sure what Walter meant by this quote, myself.

@Powdered: As real as any other epic hero

Spoiler:

doomed to repeat himself for half of eternity

[Whitey Appleseed]

I think it's interesting that in The Gunslinger, Roland's quest present him with moral questions. If the man in black is 'afraid' of Roland's idea of answers, perhaps the answer lies in what Roland's old man said to him, 'moral may always be beyond you.' Like the hawk, who really has no friends, though Roland was able to use him, Roland only knows a single-minded purpose.

I think I've got the same copy as you, Ladyhitchhiker...anyway, that quote is on the same page, the original version. My copy also has the afterword that I'd never read until yesterday, and SK mentions finishing, or working on, the part of the story about Jake around the time he worked on the story about Danny Torrence, in The Shining, escaping a different terror.

There's this idea of 'predestination' present in both works. Roland and Jake are under the mountain, on the handcar, on tracks, a kind of predestination. Later, when they stop and begin that trek up the trestle, they're described as being on a tightrope. That long-dead German philosopher comes to mind, the one with the name that's hard to spell, Nietzsche, and his ubermensch , a kind of superman walking a tightrope high above the crowds down below, about as far as I've gone in understanding Nietzsche. Rather than misquote him--some have said he was interpreted (answered) or misinterpreted (your idea of answers) by those that followed--guess he was writing and thinking his thoughts before Hitler's time.

And then he had this idea of 'the eternal recurrence', that we repeat ourselves, and rather than run the risk of misquoting him again, that phrase, 'the eternal recurrence' is enough to provide something to chew on.

Maybe that idea is a kind of predestination, the tracks of the railcar,

The Shining

or the figurines on the rails of the clock under the glass dome

. Couple with that idea, is the characters idea of what should be done, or where he/she sees him/herself in the grand scheme of things...that image as they come out of the mountain is nice...the tracks are worn away, under the sun of reason...are we the masters of our choices or our choices the master of us?

Hope I didn't pull the wrong colored rock out of the bag. I don't know.

[LadyHitchhiker]

Walter's incarnations, RF or otherwise, seem to have their own personalities. Randal Flagg behaves differently than Walter O'Dim, who behaves differently than Martin Broadcloak, etc.

However, I'm not sure what Walter meant by this quote, myself.

@Powdered: As real as any other epic hero

Spoiler:

doomed to repeat himself for half of eternity

I like this and Whitey's ideas... I love having new ideas for how to interpret my favorite books!!!

[Whitey Appleseed]

I recently read the original. Didn't know it existed until I paid attention reading something else, maybe the revised. Anyway, what struck me about the fight in Tull is what happens to the people toward the end, described on page 86. Yeah, I know everyone has versions that probably are numbered differently, but maybe it helps. Here's the sentence: They halted for a moment, startled, the mob face shivering into individual, bewildered faces.

Did Walter, or Sylvia, have the greater influence on the people. Well, they both had their effect, but I'll hazard that with the sentence quoted, Walter prepped them for the trap. How? Probably had to do with him jumping back and forth over Nort's dead body, spitting looeys on him. Life for your crop. Bewildered is a key word, I think.
Used over and over again in King's stories, it describes a kind of possession, a loss of will, and a feeling of being pushed, or pulled, in directions other than what might happen without the force present.

The Stand

In the last chapter of The Stand, Flagg is described as bewildered again.

The Shining

In The Shining, Jack is described as bewildered after busting up the radio, after Wendy finds him and breaks the spell.

The Wolves of the Calla

In The Wolves of the Calla, Father Callahan, during his time as the ESP wonder, there's something about seeing them as bewildered dead people, or something...forget the exact way it goes.

So they wake up, kinda, a mob when they attack Roland, and they're bewildered, they become individual faces. And here comes Sylvia, to rally the troops, and they continue. So I'd say it's a combination of Walter and Sylvia.