Are they the same at all???

[zadok]

Fair enough. I thought that way for a long time too, and often when I re-read it, I wrestle with it again. Put it this way, I agree that saving King had to be a pivotal event to sacrifice Jake for it's accomplishment.

Right. And that time, he knew there was no "other worlds" to go to.

[jayson]

you know what zadok, it's starting to bother me again. maybe susannah went insane and it wasn't eddie & jake at all.

[zadok]

you know what zadok, it's starting to bother me again. maybe susannah went insane and it wasn't eddie & jake at all.

Maybe it was Detta and Mia...all 3 together at last! Like the 3 SK's outside the Castle...

[To The Dark Tower Came]

Fair enough. I thought that way for a long time too, and often when I re-read it, I wrestle with it again. Put it this way, I agree that saving King had to be a pivotal event to sacrifice Jake for it's accomplishment.

Yes, because King was unique. As a kas-ka-Gan...or a conduit of the Beam. King wrote all of his books because he was seeing different levels of the Tower as a protector of the Gan Beam.

We have however seen at least 3 Jakes. One who Roland let fall, the second whom the tet draws at the speaking ring, and a third while Jake and Eddie are todash in NY. Since we don't know if any of those Jakes were from Keystone Earth, we just have to speculate.

My guess would be the third Jake. Because when Eddie and Jake are todash, it seems to be on Keystone Earth, because of the Rose. The two "markers" of Keystone Earth are the Rose and Stephen King. We know the Eddie throughout the story was not from Keystone Earth, because when they travel to it, he realizes he's not.

The thing with Keystone (anything) is that time only flowed in a single direction...forward. Meaning when you died there, no matter what world you were from, there was no "do overs", no traveling back to Mid-World and then to Earth of a previous time. So when Jake dies saving King, it's on Keystone Earth, thusly, he cannot be saved by Roland returning earlier.

[Darkthoughts]

I'm completely in agreement with the Keystone/irreversable death situation, but to me all three Jake's you mentioned above were essentially the same person.
The second Jake is maddened by memories that he is (almost) sure are false, yet when he is drawn by Roland, Eddie and Suze he fully realises that he had experienced this other life on some level/in another when.

I don't mean to imply by that, that he became two people - more that (as I think you also believe?) his previous life is on one level of the Tower, his waystation life was on another and his life with the ka-tet on another yet. So when he was dropped by Roland he flipped onto a similar level where his life was at an earlier point in time - hence his violent deja vu.

You could argue, "how has this life on this other level been occuring if there is only one Jake?" but I think that perhaps a new level is created at such an incidence (as Jake's non Keystone death).
In this way we can all have our own Towers with multiple levels, that blend with the Towers and levels of other people we encounter.

[Matt]

I like that...a lot. Very well said Lisa

[Darkthoughts]

Thanks Matt

Its another aspect of DT that I love, it seems very similar to our own perceptions of life and levels - whether that be levels of communication, spiritual levels, emotional levels - I think its because of that that we all feel such a bond with King and each other. As has been said, theres some great metaphors in the tale and I love the scope for individual interpretation (if only this were the bible, why, I'd be quite religious )

[Matt]

That is so true it actually hurts in a nice way.

I think the magic of King and one of the reasons I am such a big fan is that he really boils everything down to the human condition. And he is so damn good at it that all types of people from all over the world can identify.

That is a hell of an accomplishment imo.

[Darkthoughts]

[To The Dark Tower Came]

I'm completely in agreement with the Keystone/irreversable death situation, but to me all three Jake's you mentioned above were essentially the same person.
The second Jake is maddened by memories that he is (almost) sure are false, yet when he is drawn by Roland, Eddie and Suze he fully realises that he had experienced this other life on some level/in another when.

I don't mean to imply by that, that he became two people - more that (as I think you also believe?) his previous life is on one level of the Tower, his waystation life was on another and his life with the ka-tet on another yet. So when he was dropped by Roland he flipped onto a similar level where his life was at an earlier point in time - hence his violent deja vu.

You could argue, "how has this life on this other level been occuring if there is only one Jake?" but I think that perhaps a new level is created at such an incidence (as Jake's non Keystone death).
In this way we can all have our own Towers with multiple levels, that blend with the Towers and levels of other people we encounter.

Good points, all.

I think that This could be true, but for the intervention of ka. I believe that the reason Jake #2 had conflicting memories was because Jake was necessary to the outcome of everything. He needed to be the Jake dropped by Roland in order to continue. So, much like the dreams that the brothers Eddie and Jake had (still yet another E and J) to prepare them for Susannah's arrival at the end of book 7.

To me, I view it like the action movie "The One" with Jet Li. If you haven't seen it, it's about a man who travels through alternate dimensions in order to kill alternate versions of himself in order to gain power. I see the Tower's levels much the same way. There may be infinite amounts of me, but different in sometimes subtle, sometimes outrageous ways. The me here, is a Buddhist, with a degree in psychology, while another me might be a farmer with 12 kids, or a prison inmate. All with a connection, yes, mayhap, but not really all the same person.

We happen to see three extremely similar Jakes in the story, but we also saw two very different Sheemi as well. One a mildly slow teleporter, and the other a druggie with a van who almost kills Stephen King.

The beauty of the Tower series to me is the old Star Trek idea of IDIC. Infinite Diversity in Infinite Combination. The same thing that makes being human so great. While we share a common thread of experience (the "human experience") we are all as different as the day is long, I'll set my watch and warrant on it.

[Wuducynn]

Thanks Matt

Its another aspect of DT that I love, it seems very similar to our own perceptions of life and levels - whether that be levels of communication, spiritual levels, emotional levels

Fantastically well put.

[Darkthoughts]

We happen to see three extremely similar Jakes in the story, but we also saw two very different Sheemi as well. One a mildly slow teleporter, and the other a druggie with a van who almost kills Stephen King.

I've got to run the kids to a school disco in a sec, so I'll come back later and reply in more depth to your whole post...but for now, the above comment has me stumped. Why did you think Brian whathisface was another Sheemie, I might have to go back and reread as I don't recall getting that impression

[Letti]

I love the poll. The two very different answers got almost the same amount of votes.

[jayson]

so if this were an american election, now the supreme court would decide.

[Letti]

so if this were an american election, now the supreme court would decide.

Right now, yeah but let's see the future.

[Wuducynn]

I love that I have an option to vote for "I can't vote".

[To The Dark Tower Came]

I've got to run the kids to a school disco in a sec, so I'll come back later and reply in more depth to your whole post...but for now, the above comment has me stumped. Why did you think Brian whathisface was another Sheemie, I might have to go back and reread as I don't recall getting that impression

Because in the book says Bryan Smith looks just like Sheemie (not in those words of course...lol). Also the Concordance 2nd book list him as Sheemie's Twinner under the SK entry.

[jayson]

Interesting, interesting. So let's take Sheemie & Bryan as twinners. Very intriguing that one's ka was to help save a beam he was forced to try and break, while the other's was to nearly break another beam [or it's representative] and make me cry my eyes out with what happened instead.

[HanzouNorak]

same people, same personalities, different histories.

or


Calvin there had a family a switched his name back to Toren, and after several generations, Eddie and Jake were reicarnated on the family line, it would make sense of age (Eddie died first, he was the older Toren, Jake died later, he was the younger Toren) however that would not explain Oy, but then again, its only hinted at, not said. The Door brought Suze to the america side in the futrue (or since time is screwy there it could be the current time).

then again, i could be wrong

as for the Bryan/Shemmie reference, it belive it was refering to Bryan as mentaly challenged. (not quite the correct term i think)

[To The Dark Tower Came]

Interesting, interesting. So let's take Sheemie & Bryan as twinners. Very intriguing that one's ka was to help save a beam he was forced to try and break, while the other's was to nearly break another beam [or it's representative] and make me cry my eyes out with what happened instead.

Yes, I think that was the point. That Sheemie was special (no not that way) on many levels of the Tower, even if he didn't realize it on any of them. Ka is fate, and fate is often full of irony.

[mikeccp]

I think that they were the same people just starting out on a different level of the tower. They passed there test and were allowed to move on to the next one. Everyone seams to be obsessed with time as a constant foreword progression. Remember that Roland is living the same fixed amount of time over and over. The thing to remember is that every one is being tested and even saving god and all of existence isn't enough to pass if you do it for the wrong reason. Funny how if Roland hadn't let Jake drop they would have all lived.

[Darkthoughts]

I've got to run the kids to a school disco in a sec, so I'll come back later and reply in more depth to your whole post...but for now, the above comment has me stumped. Why did you think Brian whathisface was another Sheemie, I might have to go back and reread as I don't recall getting that impression

Because in the book says Bryan Smith looks just like Sheemie (not in those words of course...lol). Also the Concordance 2nd book list him as Sheemie's Twinner under the SK entry.

Thank you very much for that

[Matt]

I think that they were the same people just starting out on a different level of the tower. They passed there test and were allowed to move on to the next one. Everyone seams to be obsessed with time as a constant foreword progression. Remember that Roland is living the same fixed amount of time over and over. The thing to remember is that every one is being tested and even saving god and all of existence isn't enough to pass if you do it for the wrong reason. Funny how if Roland hadn't let Jake drop they would have all lived.

Interesting perspective.

Glad to see you posting mikeccp, I'd love to hear more.

[To The Dark Tower Came]

[quote=Matt;96760]

I think that they were the same people just starting out on a different level of the tower. They passed there test and were allowed to move on to the next one. Everyone seams to be obsessed with time as a constant foreword progression. Remember that Roland is living the same fixed amount of time over and over. The thing to remember is that every one is being tested and even saving god and all of existence isn't enough to pass if you do it for the wrong reason. Funny how if Roland hadn't let Jake drop they would have all lived.

I already typed out the portion at the end of the DT VII where Roland goes through the last door, and appears to be back at the start of his journey where we readers joined him (and my fingers are still complaining ). So I won't do that you all again..heh.

I believe that the others in the book are representative as they relate to Roland. His ka-mates are there for Roland's benefit more than their own. I say this because the books with the lessons Roland is supposed to be taking in, as he interacts with the characters around him, tet and otherwise. It is all because Roland dared entered the Tower during his first adventure to attain it. But because he was not worthy...not a fully actuated person, still needing to confront whatever he believed was at the top of the Tower..he has been sent back again and again (however many times) to redo the journey until he can move past his need to confront the force of ka, or Gan, what-have-you.

I agree that what happens to the others after they die or whatever is up for debate. But I would think it would be unfair for a person dying on one level of the Tower to transmigrate to another level, since we've seen in the books that people can exist on multiple levels of the Tower at the same time, as distinct individuals. But it does seem that ka rewards others as well, as it did with Susannah in her travel to a world where she could be with Jake and Eddie.

[Storyslinger]

I think the memories of the past life will come in time.