Buying things specifically to sell for a profit.

[Br!an]

There is no less obligation to pay taxes as an individual than as a business. The fact that some people don't pay the tax not withstanding.

[Highbury]

In the basic sense yes. So we have the basic definition of someone who sells a book, but beyond that I disagree. I think definitions can be found between types of sellers and where things get more muddled and subjective. I have no desire to place judgment but finding merits with the different viewpoints.

[erxbooks]

I really do not understand this discussion. If the market says a book is worth $500, it is worth $500 and the seller should get market value for his book. If the seller sets the price too high, there will be no demand and the seller will have to sell at a lower price. There is nothing wrong with selling at market price. If you were forced to sell your collection, would you sell it for what you paid for it if the market price was more? Doubtful. I sell books to fund my collecting. No profit, no collecting. And yes I do pay taxes on my profit.

[Robert Fulman]

I am not a tax accountant or attorney, but my understanding is that if my book collecting is a hobby (i.e., I don't intend to turn a profit), then it is acceptable to sell a book for $1,000 and then spend the proceeds on other books, and then not report any income from the activity at the end of the year. The downside of it being a hobby and not a business is that I'm not allowed to deduct other expenses related to my hobby, and any losses I take during the year are not allowed to be used to offset other sources of income.

[webstar1000]

I really do not understand this discussion. If the market says a book is worth $500, it is worth $500 and the seller should get market value for his book. If the seller sets the price too high, there will be no demand and the seller will have to sell at a lower price. There is nothing wrong with selling at market price. If you were forced to sell your collection, would you sell it for what you paid for it if the market price was more? Doubtful. I sell books to fund my collecting. No profit, no collecting. And yes I do pay taxes on my profit.

I agree.. that is market price.. not gouging. I think that was not the issue here... it was more on buying a bunch of books as soon as they come out and preying on the person that REALLY wants it.

[Frankie]

Not really sure which logical fallacy the whole children's electronics story has to do with this, but to me it's a wildly fanciful statement to compare them.

Why? They're virtually the exact same thing, just with a different product. The PS3 flipper actually is doing far more to "earn" his paycheck than the Carrie Lettered flipper as they frequently stood in the cold for numerous hours to get it. Standing in line in the cold for 10 hours is actually a service many people would pay for. Is getting online at the appointed time and clicking a couple buttons a service you'd happily pay for? No. You're not paying for a service, you're paying because you got beat out for it and if you want the book you have no other choice.

Is it an appeal to emotion? Of course it is. It's an appeal to emotion to illustrate a point, which is that flipping has negative consequences.

And sorry, but no one is going to make me feel bad about appealing to emotion when you've got arguments on the other side of the aisle consisting of things like "flippers are the exact same thing as paper manufacturers" and "if you don't like it don't buy it and you're not impacted by it", both of which aren't just fallacies, they're flat out indisputably false.

[Bev Vincent]

The PS3 comparison isn't apt since there is a virtually endless number of PS3s. Even if a store sells out of its stock today, there'll be more tomorrow or next week. Flippers in that context are charging a premium to people who NEED TO HAVE IT NOW rather than wait.

[erxbooks]

Then you are letting emotion over rule logic.

[stroppygoblin]

The whole games console argument simply doesn't hold water. Anyone who wanted one of these could have got one EASILY if they had planned ahead and reserved when they were announced. It was those that left it to the last minute that ended up paying inflated prices. If those that bought to sell (which of course were in a very small minority of total sales) had not done so, those that left it till the last minute would still not have had one, nor would have had the chance to have one at an inflated price.

[mistercrowley]

The whole games console argument simply doesn't hold water. Anyone who wanted one of these could have got one EASILY if they had planned ahead and reserved when they were announced. It was those that left it to the last minute that ended up paying inflated prices. If those that bought to sell (which of course were in a very small minority of total sales) had not done so, those that left it till the last minute would still not have had one, nor would have had the chance to have one at an inflated price.

But what about Tiny Tim!?

[stroppygoblin]

The whole games console argument simply doesn't hold water. Anyone who wanted one of these could have got one EASILY if they had planned ahead and reserved when they were announced. It was those that left it to the last minute that ended up paying inflated prices. If those that bought to sell (which of course were in a very small minority of total sales) had not done so, those that left it till the last minute would still not have had one, nor would have had the chance to have one at an inflated price.

But what about Tiny Tim!?

He lived in an era that didnt have Games Consoles, why the fuck should he care?

[Iwritecode]

If scalping is seen as an acceptable business practice, why is it illegal (or otherwise prohibited) in several countries and US states?

It is not illegal in the US. It is perfectly legal almost everywhere in the US except at the venue.

I was illegal at one time. When Ebay first came out, lots of people were selling useless crap like pencils or baseballs for 100’s of dollars and then they would throw in the tickets to the event for “free” to get around the scalping laws.

[mistercrowley]

Good point stroppy

[Iwritecode]

I agree, the PS3 comparison doesn’t work. But I have a better example.

My daughter likes Monster High dolls. We buy them for her and she opens them up and plays with them. She has every single character they make (there are about a dozen or so) except one. We have yet to find it on a store shelf anywhere. Yet we can go online and find it for $30+ over retail value.

This is because people buy them off the shelves to flip them for a profit the second they come in. We talked to a guy at a Toys R Us and he said they got a shipment of them in and they sold out within the day.

[mcdonaldj]

Just catching up on the chatter here. In addition to the great deals and knowledge gained here - this type of discussion is why I love this site. Pages of discussion on the ethics of flipping books is just awesome.

Bless those sorry fools who will stand in the cold for hours to get a console. A long while ago my kid wanted a wii and I stood for hours for the initial wii release which was right before Christmas. I got 2, and sold 1 to pay for my wii plus accessories. If folks didn't like it - they should have researched adds for the most likely location and gotten up at 2 am like I did. My guilt factor = 0.

[mistercrowley]

When I wanted my ps4 and everywhere was sold out I went to a walmart and pre-ordered it while others were paying premiums on the day of release I paid face value. It's amazing what planning ahead can accomplish. In retrospect I should have pre-ordered more and flipped them

[mcdonaldj]

When I wanted my ps4 and everywhere was sold out I went to a walmart and pre-ordered it while others were paying premiums on the day of release I paid face value. It's amazing what planning ahead can accomplish. In retrospect I should have pre-ordered more and flipped them

Funny - sometimes it just takes dumb luck too. I wandered into a Marine base exchange and a PS4 was just sitting on the counter ripe for the taking. I just happened to walk in when they were putting a dozen on the shelf. The clerk told me they were lasting about an hour after put out for sale with no predictable reorder dates.

[Frankie]

The PS3 comparison isn't apt since there is a virtually endless number of PS3s. Even if a store sells out of its stock today, there'll be more tomorrow or next week. Flippers in that context are charging a premium to people who NEED TO HAVE IT NOW rather than wait.

It wasn't "tomorrow" or "next week" it was more like "three months from now (well after Xmas), if you're lucky". The difference of "Need to have it before Xmas" (PS3) vs. "need to have it" (book) to me isn't substantially different enough to make me view the practices differently, but I'll think about it.

The whole games console argument simply doesn't hold water. Anyone who wanted one of these could have got one EASILY if they had planned ahead and reserved when they were announced. It was those that left it to the last minute that ended up paying inflated prices. If those that bought to sell (which of course were in a very small minority of total sales) had not done so, those that left it till the last minute would still not have had one, nor would have had the chance to have one at an inflated price.

I think you're possibly confusing the PS3 launch with the PS4. Gamestop is (was?) the biggest game retailer in the country and their preorders sold out in hours, it wasn't like the PS4 where they vastly increased initial supply and it took months. I also wouldn't call mid November "last minute" in terms of getting one for Christmas.

[Frankie]

When I wanted my ps4 and everywhere was sold out I went to a walmart and pre-ordered it while others were paying premiums on the day of release I paid face value. It's amazing what planning ahead can accomplish. In retrospect I should have pre-ordered more and flipped them

When I wanted my ps4 and everywhere was sold out I went to a walmart and pre-ordered it while others were paying premiums on the day of release I paid face value. It's amazing what planning ahead can accomplish. In retrospect I should have pre-ordered more and flipped them

Funny - sometimes it just takes dumb luck too. I wandered into a Marine base exchange and a PS4 was just sitting on the counter ripe for the taking. I just happened to walk in when they were putting a dozen on the shelf. The clerk told me they were lasting about an hour after put out for sale with no predictable reorder dates.

The PS4 launch was really nothing like the PS3 launch.

[Frankie]

The whole games console argument simply doesn't hold water. Anyone who wanted one of these could have got one EASILY if they had planned ahead and reserved when they were announced. It was those that left it to the last minute that ended up paying inflated prices. If those that bought to sell (which of course were in a very small minority of total sales) had not done so, those that left it till the last minute would still not have had one, nor would have had the chance to have one at an inflated price.

But what about Tiny Tim!?

He lived in an era that didnt have Games Consoles, why the fuck should he care?

Substitute "collectible autographed crutch" for "Game Console" in Timmy's case.

[Frankie]

I really do not understand this discussion. If the market says a book is worth $500, it is worth $500 and the seller should get market value for his book. If the seller sets the price too high, there will be no demand and the seller will have to sell at a lower price. There is nothing wrong with selling at market price. If you were forced to sell your collection, would you sell it for what you paid for it if the market price was more? Doubtful. I sell books to fund my collecting. No profit, no collecting. And yes I do pay taxes on my profit.

The thing that people take issue with isn't merely selling at market price. And it ESPECIALLY isn't selling something from your collection at market price. The issue is with buying a new high demand book at list price solely to flip it for a profit. The difference to me is:

1. Intent. If you buy a book at list to add to your collection but then lose your job the next day and sell it at (higher) market price on eBay, I don't have any problem with it. Yes, the end result is exactly the same, but the intent is entirely different. Some people think intent doesn't matter, and if they want to believe that then I guess it's their prerogative, but they cannot insist that my opinion is wrong and theirs is right because of it, especially considering how much intent absolutely DOES matter in our laws/society. If I accidentally plow my car into someone else's I'm not going to get charged with attempted murder (or murder, if they actually die). If I intentionally plow my car into someone else's trying to kill them, I will. End result: identical. Intent: completely different. Because it's so ingrained in our laws/society I really don't see how anyone can say intent doesn't matter, or intent matters some of the time but not others.

2. Value. Making money for doing essentially nothing. I just don't like it, and that opinion isn't restricted to just flipping. Book sellers (who's business model consists of things other than flipping new books for above retail) provide valuable services. They have greater reach and contacts and therefore may be able to get a higher price than I would myself. They deal with their website, or eBay, and Paypal, or forums, so that I don't have to. They deal with customers, I don't have to worry about getting scammed or shaken down over eBay feedback or a customer that's never happy about anything and always wants to return things. They have a reputation, people trust them, whereas they may not know me from Adam. All these things, and many more, mean their practices add considerable value to the transaction. There's no value added by someone buying a new book at list and putting it on eBay the next day. They're taking it out of the hands of one collector and putting it in the hands of another and a potentially significantly increased price and that increased price is not at all due to them adding value anywhere during the process. I'd rather see the book go directly to a collector at list, than see someone interject themselves into the process in order to make money while not adding any value to the equation.

I am not a tax accountant or attorney, but my understanding is that if my book collecting is a hobby (i.e., I don't intend to turn a profit), then it is acceptable to sell a book for $1,000 and then spend the proceeds on other books, and then not report any income from the activity at the end of the year. The downside of it being a hobby and not a business is that I'm not allowed to deduct other expenses related to my hobby, and any losses I take during the year are not allowed to be used to offset other sources of income.

I'm not a tax accountant or attorney either, but I would think you'd have a hard time convincing one of them that buying a book solely to immediately flip for a profit is a part of "book collecting". You're not collecting it. You might use it to fund your collecting, but it itself is not collecting.

If that is indeed how it works then very shortly I am going to have a car dealership where I pay no taxes on profits because it's just part of my car collecting.

[mistercrowley]

The funny thing about this whole debate is the book that started it I probably won't even be able to afford. I'd like to be able to but I have a feeling the price is going to be insane and not worth it (watch T-Bagz fly in to refute this )

[Frankie]

The funny thing about this whole debate is the book that started it I probably won't even be able to afford. I'd like to be able to but I have a feeling the price is going to be insane and not worth it (watch T-Bagz fly in to refute this )

What's your guess on price?

[mistercrowley]

I'm guessing $3,500

[webstar1000]

WOW! I am Hoping for $2000...