Why Different For Susannah?

[Wuducynn]

From the little information we get about Eddie Toren in the Coda, we really have no idea whatsoever how much he's like Eddie Dean other than the physical resemblance. They could have had radically different lives since birth and thus wouldn't be the same (to me) other than being similar in appearance.

True, of course most (all?) of this is hypothetical. I think in keeping with the King idea of twinners that they would have similar lives that went down different paths. The same with Jake Toren. Again, I think they're close enough for her to feel like she was coming home again to them. But different enough that she would feel the need to meet them all over again.

[jayson]

True, of course most (all?) of this is hypothetical. I think in keeping with the King idea of twinners that they would have similar lives that went down different paths. The same with Jake Toren. Again, I think they're close enough for her to feel like she was coming home again to them. But different enough that she would feel the need to meet them all over again.

I'd say it's all hypothetical. We know virtually nothing about the Torens other than that they look (almost) exactly like Eddie Dean and Jake Chambers.

Even so, I see a lot more differences than I see similarities. For Jake to have a brother is a MAJOR difference would contribute to Jake Toren being a much different person than the only child Jake Chambers. For Eddie Toren to be the caring big brother he appears to be makes him much different than the little brother of the great sage and imminent junkie Henry Dean.

To me it turns the notion of 'similar lives that went down different paths' on its head. Where did these lives diverge? With different family situations it appears to me to have diverged at birth. Also, aren't the Torens from White Plains? Growing up in White Plains is radically different than growing up in co-op city be it in the Bronx or Brooklyn and much different than growing up in Manhattan in Jake's case. Was their father like Elmer? Was their father gone like Eddie's? The questions are endless and each one presents me with new thoughts on how different these people really are from Eddie Dean and Jake Chambers.

[Jean]

Let's imagine a Mad Scientist who, at a moment of your life, splits you into two people and sends them along different paths; maybe in different universes. Previously they were one, and had the same experience; now they are two; which would be you? For your wife, for example - if one, say, stayed with her, of course it would be easier for her to accept him as the "real" one, exactly because, as you said, she witnessed the change - but how would the other one become less authentic only on the ground of her not seeing him change?

Which would be me is a question I can only answer if I know in which would my consciousness reside.

But isn't consciousness, unlike soul (as we believers understand it), entirely depending on experience and perception, and thus, subject to constant change? Both will move away from what you're at present - consciousness-wise - at the same speed as you at the next moment move away from yourself at the present moment... only in the different directions...

To overcome that, let's assume that I (I being my conscious mind which is currently participating in this thread) is not either of them, that for the purposes of this hypothetical I am just an observer. So we have Jayson #1 (the one that stays) and Jayson #2 (the one that goes). I don't know that #2 is less authentic than #1, but I am fairly confident he would be a different person however many years down the line, and that difference would be proportional to the differences in experiences the two have had.

But wouldn't this difference be merely quantitative? More of this, less of that; wouldn't you remain essentially the same? Moreover: if the Jaysons changed their places before a crucial event that really might have changed one of them beyond recognition - would it change the other Jayson in the same way it would have changed the original Jayson?

Would my wife recognize #2 upon his return? Surely. Not everything about a person changes. Would they still be compatible? Not necessarily. Who knows what changed in that time (not just for #2 but for her as well). It's for this reason that I think her presence for the changes in #1 make all the difference in the world(s).

Yes, but she could have become incompatible with #1 as well even if he had been under her constant surveillance... happens all the time

To bring us back to Eddie & Susannah, I don't know how much I feel the multiple Eddies match up with that hypothetical. I don't see them as the same up to Point A and then different.

That's what I meant when I said, "soul, created uniquely" - the moment I'm talking about was before their birth... then the difference of experience came into the picture... and still Susannah recognized the other one as true Eddie!

From the little information we get about Eddie Toren in the Coda, we really have no idea whatsoever how much he's like Eddie Dean other than the physical resemblance. They could have had radically different lives since birth and thus wouldn't be the same (to me) other than being similar in appearance.

I don't know about appearance, - bears never rely on appearances, - I know that I could hardly recognize my wife by sight... I think it's the overall charizma of a person's being that we recognize, some emanations of personality beyond the shape of the eyes or the color of the hair... and that's what she recognized...

ETA: Let's consider it the other way for a second. What if it were Eddie that went through that door to a Susannah that had never lost her legs, never had multiple personality disorder, never took part in the civil rights movement, et al.? Would she really be the same person as the Susannah we knew? Her entire world view could be radically different which I think informs so much of who we are.

Perfect question! And my answer is... drumroll... YES, she would essentially be the same, and Eddie would recognize her as his own true love!

(I see we could go on forever, with new logical tricks and mental experiments... but ultimately it always comes the same - the existence of soul as separate entity, and of God as a Person...)

[jayson]

(I see we could go on forever, with new logical tricks and mental experiments... but ultimately it always comes the same - the existence of soul as separate entity, and of God as a Person...)

We definitely could so I will attempt to cut to the chase with an answer that I think gets to my essential (pun intended) views on all of the questions posed.

As both a Buddhist and an existentialist (and my academic career was based, in large part, on obliterating the notion that these are different things) I don't personally believe in the concept of a permanent and personal soul per se. To me, the consciousness is the personhood of a person. Experience and perception informs all. Obviously for you as a faithful Christian, this is the exact opposite of the way you see it.

Ultimately, what I enjoy about this conversation is either one of us (or neither one of us) could be correct. It's all a matter of interpretation and much credit to King for writing something that works so well for two people who interpret the metaphysical aspects in such different ways.

[Jean]

(I need a bearapplause smiley)

[jayson]

He's not a smiley, but this cousin of yours is clearly clapping his paws...

[Jean]

yes, and that's what I am doing reading your post (#279)

[jayson]

It's the same reaction I have to many of your posts, several of them from this conversation. I enjoy when agreement/disagreement takes a back seat to exchanging interpretations and the thoughts behind them.

[Matt]

I'm not sure I agree with Jean on the level of a "soul"...I believe the Eddie and Jake on the other side of the door were vastly (if not totally different) from the ones we were exposed to.

However, I believe each alternate version of me no matter how badly their life was are still me at the core (or I am them )

My point was that Suze saw them as Eddie and Jake, she chose him/them over the Tower even though she wasn't sure how it would turn out. To me, the whole thing should have been a serious lesson to Roland, his last chance to see it really.

[obscurejude]

I just don't think that's the main theme of the series, Matt, though I know you do. The Tower was singing Roland's name and it was maddening. I don't think any higher power was trying to make him less obsessed.

[Brice]

Is it not possible that the alternates (such as Eddie and Jake) in the alternate worlds are not truly different people, but all aspects of the same one? ...soul or not.

[Jean]

This is very close to how bears see it.

He recognized her too, remember?

[Brice]

I don't really remember without rereading. It does seem a little familiar though.

[Matt]

He had had some dreams about her.

And I don't believe it was the main theme, I just understand Suze's motivations where going through the door are concerned. And I think it was a last chance for Roland to see something important.

[jayson]

Is it not possible that the alternates (such as Eddie and Jake) in the alternate worlds are not truly different people, but all aspects of the same one? ...soul or not.

I understand that metaphorically, but not metaphysically. How does it work to be an "aspect" of someone? Is Eddie Toren "real"? Are we "real" or are we aspects of some other Brice and Jayson somewhere?

[Brice]

Is it not possible that the alternates (such as Eddie and Jake) in the alternate worlds are not truly different people, but all aspects of the same one? ...soul or not.

I understand that metaphorically, but not metaphysically. How does it work to be an "aspect" of someone? Is Eddie Toren "real"? Are we "real" or are we aspects of some other Brice and Jayson somewhere?

Well, let's say something like infinite worlds is true...I think we'd be simultaneously fractional and whole.

[Wuducynn]

I'm not sure I agree with Jean on the level of a "soul"...I believe the Eddie and Jake on the other side of the door were vastly (if not totally different) from the ones we were exposed to.

However, I believe each alternate version of me no matter how badly their life was are still me at the core (or I am them )

I'm a little confused by this. At least by the "(if not totally)" part. If you believe the alternate you's are still you at the core then how can they be totally different?

[Wuducynn]

Is it not possible that the alternates (such as Eddie and Jake) in the alternate worlds are not truly different people, but all aspects of the same one? ...soul or not.

See, this is where I was coming from also.

[jayson]

I'm still unsure if I know what that actually means.

[Wuducynn]

The possibility (in the Dark Tower series) that your soul exists on the multiple levels of the Tower, the many worlds, but is really one soul. Kind of like how there are multiple America's that Callahan passes through, but they are all "America".

[Brice]

Yes, and there needn't even be a soul at all for the idea to work. Each you is both an independent you and a part of a whole at the same time.

[Wuducynn]

I think Jayson should take a few bong hits and then come back to the thread.

[Brice]

I think we all should.

[Wuducynn]

Nah, if my consciousness get's expanded any more than it already is then I'll become one with all of you and I'd rather not be one with a bunch of damn hippies...

[Brice]

Good point!