What happened to Odetta of Keystone Earth (this is boggling my head)- spoilers...

[unclelouie]

So in reading DT VII last night, I got to wondering about something. When Irene takes Roland to the Tet Corporation office building, and Roland meets Moses Carver, it is understood that Odetta went "missing" years ago, and that she is now with Roland, et al. John Cullum of course was the one who convinced Moses Carver that the whole thing was legit, and that his god daughter truly was part of this.

However, Odetta/Detta/Suze wasnt from Keystone Earth (nor was Eddie or Jake). Either was Moses Carver. But Roland meets the Keystone version of Moses, who of course would have been the god father of Keystone Odetta, he still has a missing god daughter named Odetta. So hows this possible? What happened to the Keystone Odetta? She isnt with Roland.....

.... I have a feeling someone is going to post "keep reading" tho......

[unclelouie]

And another thing... re: Suze...

If time only runs "one way" in the Keystone World, how in DT VI, did Eddie/Roland end up in 1977, and Suze end up in 1999?

Thats been bugging the crap out of me.

And also, how did the Old Ones take trips to see 9/11 when times only runs one way.

[pathoftheturtle]

Thank you. Glad I'm not the only one who noticed.

Short answer: the whole idea of time running one way in one world is dumb.
In fact, in my opinion, the whole idea of keystone worlds is contradictory: it implies that all the other worlds are not science, but fantasy. In some sense, they're less real.
If you have to have justification, though, maybe all of that was relative to the characters in this story. Arbitrary rules determined by the Dark Tower. It could be that the other version of Odetta went with another version of Roland and those versions were told that a third world is the Keystone Earth... and perhaps, in their version of the quest to save the Tower, it is. But that's just me: some of our members seem to object to ideas such as Roland having any twinners.
It is pretty boggling.

[Jean]

But that's just me: some of our members seem to object to ideas such as Roland having any twinners.

some do

[pathoftheturtle]

I still don't see the reasoning.

But if that is enough to rule out my rationalization on TDT cosmology, above, then how else to answer the question of this thread?

[Jean]

I still don't see the reasoning.

I don't see it now myself, not at the moment. I must have argued my point somewhere, but now I only have a vague feeling that Roland is equalable to the Tower itself, as much the axis of the multiverse as the Tower

But if that is enough to rule out my rationalization on TDT cosmology, above, then how else to answer the question of this thread?

Don't know now. I got to reread the book, this time paying more attention to the organization of the multiverse (I never have)

[pathoftheturtle]

I still don't see the reasoning.

I don't see it now myself, not at the moment. I must have argued my point somewhere...

Then I must have missed it. Say sorry.

... now I only have a vague feeling that Roland is equalable to the Tower itself, as much the axis of the multiverse as the Tower...

Ah, but the Tower itself does manifest in multiple versions in each different world...

... I got to reread the book, this time paying more attention to the organization of the multiverse (I never have)

Well, here's one very weird or else quite interesting speculation, from SoS --

... Did he himself understand what he was talking about? Or how Aaron Deepneau -- presumably a lifelong New Yorker -- could assert with such casual assurance that Co-Op City was in the Bronx when Eddie knew it to be in Brooklyn?
Not entirely, but he understood enough to scare the hell out of him. Other worlds. Perhaps an infinite number of worlds, all of them spinning on the axle that was the Tower. All of them were similar, but there were differences. Different politicians on the currency. Different makes of automobiles... In these worlds, one of which had been decimated by a plaugue called the super-flu, you could trime-hop back and forth, past and future. Because...
Because in some vital way, they aren't the real world. Or if they're real, they're not the key world.
Yes, that felt closer. He had come from one of those other worlds, he was convinced of it. So had Susannah. And Jakes One and Two, the one who had fallen and the one who had literally been pulled out of the monster's mouth and saved.
But this world was the key world. And he knew it because he was a key-maker by trade: Dad-a-chum, dad-a-chee, not to worry, tyou've got the key.
Beryl Evans? Not quite real. Claudia y Inez Bachman? Real.
...
And he had an idea that Callahan had crossed over from the real world to one of the others long before he had embarked on his highways in hiding: had crossed without even knowing it. He'd said something about officiating at some little boy's funeral, and how, after that...
"After that, he said everything changed," Eddie said as he sat down, "That everything changed."
...
"Pere went from a seminary in Boston to Lowell, real. 'Salem's Lot, not real. Made up by a writer..."

Mind-boggling again! Callahan not only existed in SK's real world before SK wrote about him, but passed out of that world into a 'Salem's Lot world when he did? Is that what this passage means? Is that perhaps where all of his characters start out?

[Tik]

I think this quote from DT5 may be important:

"That little piece of Second Avenue between the vacant lot and maybe up to Sixtieth is a very important place. I think its a doorway. One big doorway"

Jake Chambers was looking more and more excited. "Not all the way up to Sixtieth. Not that far. Second Avenue between Forty-sixth and Fifty-fourth, thats what I think. On the day I left Piper, I felt something change when I got to Fifty-fourth Street. Its those eight blocks. The stretch with the record store on it and Chew Chew Mama, and The Manhattan Restaurant of the Mind. And the vacant lot, of course. Thats the other end. It....I dont know...."

Eddie said, "Being there takes you into a different world. Some kind of key world. And I think thats why time always runs one way-"

Think back on when Jake first saw the Rose in DT3. Jake started out in his own world before getting to Fifty-fourth Street where he passed through the doorway generated by the Rose into the Keystone world to see said Rose in the vacant lot. When he left the vacant lot he passed back through the doorway into his own world again.

Since the founding members of the Tet Corp were set up to protect the Rose, I believe a similar thing happened here. John Cullum probably set out from the The Manhattan Restaurant of the Mind and crossed through that doorway into Susannah's world. Here, he met Moses Carver, convinced him to come back to The Manhattan Restaurant of the Mind with him due to the evidence Susannah provided Cullum, and they both passed through the doorway into the Keystone world.

After this, crossing to and from worlds to merge the Tet Corp with Holmes Dental would be easy. And since Moses is based at the Rose itself, he automatically would be found in the Keystone world whichever world he was originally from.

If time only runs "one way" in the Keystone World, how in DT VI, did Eddie/Roland end up in 1977, and Suze end up in 1999?

Thats been bugging the crap out of me.

And also, how did the Old Ones take trips to see 9/11 when times only runs one way.

It runs one way on the individual. So if I went to 1995 in Keystone Earth, I cant then travel back any earlier. However, this wouldn't stop a different person going to 1945 if they wished, but once they did that they couldn't go back any earlier than their first arrival to this world either.

[unclelouie]

I think this quote from DT5 may be important:

"That little piece of Second Avenue between the vacant lot and maybe up to Sixtieth is a very important place. I think its a doorway. One big doorway"

Jake Chambers was looking more and more excited. "Not all the way up to Sixtieth. Not that far. Second Avenue between Forty-sixth and Fifty-fourth, thats what I think. On the day I left Piper, I felt something change when I got to Fifty-fourth Street. Its those eight blocks. The stretch with the record store on it and Chew Chew Mama, and The Manhattan Restaurant of the Mind. And the vacant lot, of course. Thats the other end. It....I dont know...."

Eddie said, "Being there takes you into a different world. Some kind of key world. And I think thats why time always runs one way-"

Think back on when Jake first saw the Rose in DT3. Jake started out in his own world before getting to Fifty-fourth Street where he passed through the doorway generated by the Rose into the Keystone world to see said Rose in the vacant lot. When he left the vacant lot he passed back through the doorway into his own world again.

Since the founding members of the Tet Corp were set up to protect the Rose, I believe a similar thing happened here. John Cullum probably set out from the The Manhattan Restaurant of the Mind and crossed through that doorway into Susannah's world. Here, he met Moses Carver, convinced him to come back to The Manhattan Restaurant of the Mind with him due to the evidence Susannah provided Cullum, and they both passed through the doorway into the Keystone world.

After this, crossing to and from worlds to merge the Tet Corp with Holmes Dental would be easy. And since Moses is based at the Rose itself, he automatically would be found in the Keystone world whichever world he was originally from.

If time only runs "one way" in the Keystone World, how in DT VI, did Eddie/Roland end up in 1977, and Suze end up in 1999?

Thats been bugging the crap out of me.

And also, how did the Old Ones take trips to see 9/11 when times only runs one way.

It runs one way on the individual. So if I went to 1995 in Keystone Earth, I cant then travel back any earlier. However, this wouldn't stop a different person going to 1945 if they wished, but once they did that they couldn't go back any earlier than their first arrival to this world either.

That's probably the most coherent, likely answer I've read on the subject of time in the Keystone Wold. Say Thankya.

[pathoftheturtle]

That's Tik for you: Kind of a continuity champ.

[mattgreenbean]

Doesn't the ending of the series kinda throw all this out the widow?

[pathoftheturtle]

Have you read the ending unclelouie?

To me, that's a good question. I always like to think they should be compatible; at first it seems to actually explain the different worlds better than they had been rationalized earlier. But there are contradictions, I think, when you look closer, and again friends here seem to disagree with my approach -- there's a real urge to hold (spoiler) separate as an unrelated phenomenon.

[pathoftheturtle]

[Merlin1958]

LOL!!!

[hpr7]

I think this quote from DT5 may be important:

"That little piece of Second Avenue between the vacant lot and maybe up to Sixtieth is a very important place. I think its a doorway. One big doorway"

Jake Chambers was looking more and more excited. "Not all the way up to Sixtieth. Not that far. Second Avenue between Forty-sixth and Fifty-fourth, thats what I think. On the day I left Piper, I felt something change when I got to Fifty-fourth Street. Its those eight blocks. The stretch with the record store on it and Chew Chew Mama, and The Manhattan Restaurant of the Mind. And the vacant lot, of course. Thats the other end. It....I dont know...."

Eddie said, "Being there takes you into a different world. Some kind of key world. And I think thats why time always runs one way-"

Think back on when Jake first saw the Rose in DT3. Jake started out in his own world before getting to Fifty-fourth Street where he passed through the doorway generated by the Rose into the Keystone world to see said Rose in the vacant lot. When he left the vacant lot he passed back through the doorway into his own world again.

Since the founding members of the Tet Corp were set up to protect the Rose, I believe a similar thing happened here. John Cullum probably set out from the The Manhattan Restaurant of the Mind and crossed through that doorway into Susannah's world. Here, he met Moses Carver, convinced him to come back to The Manhattan Restaurant of the Mind with him due to the evidence Susannah provided Cullum, and they both passed through the doorway into the Keystone world.

After this, crossing to and from worlds to merge the Tet Corp with Holmes Dental would be easy. And since Moses is based at the Rose itself, he automatically would be found in the Keystone world whichever world he was originally from.

If time only runs "one way" in the Keystone World, how in DT VI, did Eddie/Roland end up in 1977, and Suze end up in 1999?

Thats been bugging the crap out of me.

And also, how did the Old Ones take trips to see 9/11 when times only runs one way.

It runs one way on the individual. So if I went to 1995 in Keystone Earth, I cant then travel back any earlier. However, this wouldn't stop a different person going to 1945 if they wished, but once they did that they couldn't go back any earlier than their first arrival to this world either.

Thank you for your theories

[hpr7]

If finding in the Restaurant of the Mind means finding in the Keystone Earth how it can be possibile that existed two copies of Charlie Choo-Choo written from two different writers?

[Merlin1958]

Thank you. Glad I'm not the only one who noticed.

Short answer: the whole idea of time running one way in one world is dumb.
In fact, in my opinion, the whole idea of keystone worlds is contradictory: it implies that all the other worlds are not science, but fantasy. In some sense, they're less real.
If you have to have justification, though, maybe all of that was relative to the characters in this story. Arbitrary rules determined by the Dark Tower. It could be that the other version of Odetta went with another version of Roland and those versions were told that a third world is the Keystone Earth... and perhaps, in their version of the quest to save the Tower, it is. But that's just me: some of our members seem to object to ideas such as Roland having any twinners.
It is pretty boggling.

Fancy this, for once you and I are in total agreement!!! LOL Scary thought, I know. I was always of the opinion that SK totally "screwed" himself with regards to the Time Travel in TDT. In the end I decided to just "go with it" for the sake of enjoying the tale.

Mark this day, Path!! It may be the first and last!!! LOL LOL LOL

[Tik]

If finding in the Restaurant of the Mind means finding in the Keystone Earth how it can be possibile that existed two copies of Charlie Choo-Choo written from two different writers?

Well, even thought there is a door, these are still two different realities each with a different person who has written the book. There are still two different Restaurant of the Minds. Where exactly you slip through the doorway (or even if you slip through it at all) in that stretch of New York will dictate which version of the shop you see and, consequently, which version of the book you can get.

[twice]

I thought Odetta was from the keystone world. The keystone world only runs one way. They never went back to the 60s. Makes sense, but its been awhile since I read TDOT3.

[pathoftheturtle]

Ok; Jack Mort pushed Odetta, remember? They lived in the same world. Later, Mort pushed Jake, so they lived in the same world, too. But Roland changed history so that Jake lived, then in The Waste Lands living Jake crosses back into Mid-World by following the younger Eddie. So Eddie lived in the same world as Jake. Which is the same world as Jack Mort, thus the same world that Odetta came from. But Eddie did not come from the Keystone Earth. Unless Stephen King, instead of creating a world where Co-op City is in Brooklyn, was able to temporarily move the whole housing development in his own world from the Bronx just so that Eddie could grow up there, then cause everybody else to forget that that ever happened. I've explained this before on other threads.

[Claude Clay]

good replies and as good as any...

Zelazny did a 5 part Series of Amber. the Real Amber casts 'shadows' which blood of the family of amber may move through.
it is a 'if you can think it' you can travel to it

the question becomes -- was it there before you thought of it or did you create it from the essence of Amber's shadow when you thought of it.
also, the more traveled to a place is, the more it attains a perminance of its own

than Heinlein in The number of the Beast postulates travel through 3 axis --

space, time and tau. tau being other 'earths' where perhaps the letter 'J' is missing. or the Galactic Lensman is real. or, or...

so are the Darktower worlds shadows cast by the Real Darktower?
are the doors ( roads) that are in the story paths to DT locations close on the tau line?
are there other doors that lead to places humans can not exist and thus not even mentioned ?

so it is that King is neither original nor is he consistent -- but he is one hell of a good story teller!!

[SDZald]

This is why I HATE reading fiction with time travel. You have to suspend logic to get past the "paradox" inherent in all time travel. The harder a writer tries to logically work his way around that the more muddled and illogical it becomes.

I Loved the characters, story and King's fine writing skills so much that I just trained myself not to even think about logic and focus on the story not the details. It works for the most part but there are some things that just bug the ... out of me. Like in The Drawing of the Three, Roland comes to the sea out of the east, claims he can't go west because of the sea and that only leaves north and south. He decides to go north yet claims as he walks the sea is on his right. I try hard to just chalk it up to Roland s world is different than mine and north and south are reversed, but the logical side of my mind won't let it go.