Rep points given for such a concise and stellar post.Originally Posted by The Library Policeman
Rep points given for such a concise and stellar post.
Totally.
Love it.
There appears to be a lot of conjecture about the definition or state of “Room 217”.
In the post that Bill passed on yesterday (top of this page) he clearly states:
“The edition, and our intention to donate the proceeds to the Haven Foundation, was approved by Steve’s agent”.
Pretty much says it all.
Bill also publicly stated (defacto comitted to) auctioning off one copy per year.
Sub Press clearly did not fulfill their publicly stated comittment to auction the 6 remaining copies.
I don't believe questions should be directed towards anyone but Sub Press.
Camelot (IMO) is a neutral second or third party and not obligated to publicly respond to/answer questions about their purchase of and sale of the 6 books.
Since Bill at Sub Press is publicly on record as comitting to auction the books, he bears a responsibility to have fulfilled his promise.
Bill from Sub Press should explain why he veered from his original comittment, and clearly disclose what he donated to The Haven Foundation .
Ordinarily the details of donations are understood as to be confidential, but public statements require public disclosure.
IMO Camelot should not be the people to answer the questions regarding this very odd...dare I say weird chain of events.
Sub Press needs to shoulder the responsibility to disclose why they varied from their clear commitment, and disclose the amount they donated to THF.
Stephen King is the head of The Haven Foundation. Either King himself, or someone representing him on behalf of The Haven Foundation should explain why THF is accepting this donation after CLEARLY declaring they would no longer accept donations.
All of this.
The donation appears to be grandfathered in. I fail to understand why that isn’t obvious to everyone.
And even if it weren’t, I would understand Haven making a one-time exception if they so chose given King’s long relationship with Sub Press. It’s their operation, so it’s their choice.
The books were announced on some level long ago, so they were not a complete secret that just popped.
If Bill at Sub Press decided to sell the lot rather auction them piecemeal, that is his right. They were his (Sub Press’s) inventory. No specific sale date had been announced that he then cancelled.
If the buyers decided to keep a couple and sell the rest, that’s their right, too. The books are/were their inventory at that point.
I disagree with any implication that Sub Press, Camelot, and/or Haven have been dishonest in their public dealings regarding this project.
If any of the individual end buyers now attempt to sell their copy at a profit, I don’t have a problem with that either.
I have no horse in this particular race as I’m not a potential buyer in that market range, but I have absolutely no moral nor ethical issue with any of these events.
These have been my opinions, of course. I respect that those of many of you may vary.
Edits: Clarity and added a couple thoughts.
"...that Siren which called and sang and promised so much and gave, after all, so little." ~ Ray Bradbury
I agree with Mr. Patrick here. As I am a new entrant to King's works, you guys can take my words with a grain of salt, but having been a passionate collector of other rare and antiquarian books, I suppose I have something to say. I do not believe Subterranean Press owes anyone an explanation as to why they sold the books straight to Camelot instead of auctioning off as previously stated. It has been more than four-five years since the inception of such call, and unlike then, Subterranean Press isn't really a "small press" anymore. They manage hundreds of authors and publish more than dozens of titles per year and Bill not only makes decisions at management levels, but he also manages all ins and outs of the operation, from dealmaking to conception of a book to customer service at the end. You can imagine why he had no time to allocate another chunk of his time to follow up on an auction which was solely and purely conceived out of his good will, to help the Haven Foundation. Also, don't forget that Subterranean has used its own out of expenses to do the leather binding and making of unique tray cases to benefit the proposed auction.
Subterranean Press also has its reputation to keep and it would be illogical for Bill to make a separate edition without the knowlege of SK. Some keeps insisting that this is a rebound, but since the inception of this book, the books and the use of Roman Numerals have been already pre-approved by SK. Once again, all the proceeds from the books have been sent to Haven Foundation and Subterranean Press has gained no monetary compensation whatsoever.
Lastly, some claims that the PC copies were rebound only recently and Subterranean Press is taking advantage of the leftover trash copies to elevate their editions. As a member already provided on the image above, the "variant" cover has been present as early as 2015.
As a new member, I come to this forum with fresh perspective, but the level of conspiracy theories prevalent amongst some is quite new and baffling to me. All these conspiracy theories make a fun read, but it could become toxic, if uncontrolled.
I wholeheartedly agree with the comments made by The Antiquarian.
The Haven Foundation are in receipt of the monies and neither Camelot Books or Subterranean Press owe any explanation whatsoever. Nor are legally obliged to, as was stated in a previous post.
Well, it seems we have that sorted. 8)
"One day you're going to figure out that everything they taught you was a lie."
Wow. I didn't check the site during the weekend and a lot happened
Now, has anyone been involved in the comunication betweek Sub Press and King? Probably not, so then, probably no one outside King agent and Sub press know the deal, both the book and the donation.
I see the edition as an official, not a rebound. The use of roman numbers has been approved by King, and the edition produced by Sub Press. I think the market will see it the same way in the future.
Congrats Alec and all those who were able to score one. Lovely edition!
Wanted list:
Ubris
I wholeheartedly agree with the comments made by The Antiquarian, Alec and Ari.
“If you don't know what you want," the doorman said, "you end up with a lot you don't.”
― Chuck Palahniuk, Fight Club
Looking for SubPress Lettered::
Angel's Game and Prisoner of Heaven (Zafon)
Ilium (Simmons)
Was the "unknown" edition made from the same page blocks as the commonly known SP Shining?
Eastasia has always taught college students to feel pride or shame according to their race.
I do believe so, but only Sub press or someone with both books can verify. It's not even clear if the artwork from the lettered is included with the Roman Numeral book. From the pictures I've seen, the Roman Numeral book does not have fancy papers in the traycase-in fact they are just blank white.
All of this.
The donation appears to be grandfathered in. I fail to understand why that isn’t obvious to everyone.
And even if it weren’t, I would understand Haven making a one-time exception if they so chose given King’s long relationship with Sub Press. It’s their operation, so it’s their choice.
The books were announced on some level long ago, so they were not a complete secret that just popped.
If Bill at Sub Press decided to sell the lot rather auction them piecemeal, that is his right. They were his (Sub Press’s) inventory. No specific sale date had been announced that he then cancelled.
If the buyers decided to keep a couple and sell the rest, that’s their right, too. The books are/were their inventory at that point.
I disagree with any implication that Sub Press, Camelot, and/or Haven have been dishonest in their public dealings regarding this project.
If any of the individual end buyers now attempt to sell their copy at a profit, I don’t have a problem with that either.
I have no horse in this particular race as I’m not a potential buyer in that market range, but I have absolutely no moral nor ethical issue with any of these events.
These have been my opinions, of course. I respect that those of many of you may vary.
Edits: Clarity and added a couple thoughts.I agree with Mr. Patrick here. As I am a new entrant to King's works, you guys can take my words with a grain of salt, but having been a passionate collector of other rare and antiquarian books, I suppose I have something to say. I do not believe Subterranean Press owes anyone an explanation as to why they sold the books straight to Camelot instead of auctioning off as previously stated. It has been more than four-five years since the inception of such call, and unlike then, Subterranean Press isn't really a "small press" anymore. They manage hundreds of authors and publish more than dozens of titles per year and Bill not only makes decisions at management levels, but he also manages all ins and outs of the operation, from dealmaking to conception of a book to customer service at the end. You can imagine why he had no time to allocate another chunk of his time to follow up on an auction which was solely and purely conceived out of his good will, to help the Haven Foundation. Also, don't forget that Subterranean has used its own out of expenses to do the leather binding and making of unique tray cases to benefit the proposed auction.
Subterranean Press also has its reputation to keep and it would be illogical for Bill to make a separate edition without the knowlege of SK. Some keeps insisting that this is a rebound, but since the inception of this book, the books and the use of Roman Numerals have been already pre-approved by SK. Once again, all the proceeds from the books have been sent to Haven Foundation and Subterranean Press has gained no monetary compensation whatsoever.
Lastly, some claims that the PC copies were rebound only recently and Subterranean Press is taking advantage of the leftover trash copies to elevate their editions. As a member already provided on the image above, the "variant" cover has been present as early as 2015.
As a new member, I come to this forum with fresh perspective, but the level of conspiracy theories prevalent amongst some is quite new and baffling to me. All these conspiracy theories make a fun read, but it could become toxic, if uncontrolled.I gotta say that the perspective you gentlemen have taken which, has been apparently accepted by a few other members kind of amazes me. Here are some of the pertinent issues in my humble opinion.
First, as I understand it, Sub Press received permission to create these books from, King under the following parameters that they note them as Roman Numeral editions and that they would be auctioned, one per year, by SP with the proceeds being donated to the HF.This arrangement was advertised as an enticement to potential buyers to purchase said editions. An obligation had then been formed between the public and SP to follow through on their responsibilities to the purchaser and the HF. To do otherwise than what has been detailed in an advertisement is known as "False Advertising". To my knowledge (and I believe the general public) no actual proof has been issued that any funds were ever donated to the HF. True, the editions were conceived back in 2015 and the editions completed either in that year or shortly thereafter, but we do have what would seem to be actual proof that the HF could no longer accept public or private donations beginning in 2017 pursuant to the letter RF posted."Grandfathering" may be an explanation, but again there is no actual proof or documentation to support that theory. I don't see how it can be said to be "Obvious". Of note in that referenced letter is the fact that the charity underwent a re-classification of its status as a charity. Again, I suppose some sort of "Grandfather" clause could have been involved, but I have to say that seems unlikely. The Internal Revenue Service of the U.S.A. is generally not a very flexible institution. Steven King, SP or anyone short of, Donald Trump perhaps (lol) does not have the authority to determine whether or not to accept a donation when the IRS classification prohibits it. Not unless some special provision had been denoted and approved by the IRS prior to the reclassification of the charity's status. Otherwise they would face consequences that would result in possible suspension of their "Charitable status", penalties interest charges and/or fines. The IRS does not fool around.
What would give anyone the idea that "Bill at SP" had the right to break the covenant he made with the public once he announced and advertised his intentions when he offered these books for sale? Certainly, if "Burger King" advertised that with the purchase of every cheeseburger, .50 cents would be donated to, St. Jude's Hospital for Children, for instance, you better believe everyone who purchased a cheeseburger would expect to see that .50 cents donated to St. Jude's, right? Likewise with an advertisement stating any form of the old "Buy one, get one free" deal, no?
Someone owes an explanation to this issue. TDT.Org regularly, for many years, donated to the HF to the tune of almost 100k over the years. In the end, we received an official letter stating that the HF could no longer accept donations. How and why can an exception be made for SP? Does the HF have any information to clarify the issue? Has an instance of "False Advertising" been perpetrated? Why did SP fail to meet its obligation as delineated in its adverts to auction one edition each year until all 10 copies were sold and the proceeds donated to the HF? Did, King and/or the HF authorize the irregularities/changes? And any other questions that may arise.
I believe that we members of TDT.Org as "Constant Readers, Regular Customers and earnest and dedicated donors to the HF do in fact have a "Right to know" what has transpired here at the very least to the level of info required to be made public information by a charitable organization. And that is just my opinion and may not be shared by others.
Great points Bill - and as an aside I have reviewed the Haven Foundations form 990 as filed with the IRS. The last reported filing was indeed in 2017 and none have been filed since which supports their reclassification letter. However I WILL expect to see a 990-PF (Private foundation) filed for tax year 2019 with the amount donated by sub press. While the 990’s don’t break down individual donors they do break down how the charity is funded. In 2017 the HF only received $16,582 in contributions, grants, and gifts received of which we gave them $15,419. Funnily enough, Kings hatred of all things conservative (like free markets and capitalism) has allowed him to find this charity. In 2017 (last year of 990 filing) the foundation held 11,980,600 in corporate stock with the largest holdings being companies like P&G, Exxon mobile.
I know some don’t think this is an issue, and maybe we just love drama but I think the way this all went down sucked.
Merlin1958:
Just to clarify a couple of things. SubPress published (put them in the hands of the buyers) the S/L, and Lettered in 2014. On or about that time, Bill (Owner of SubPress) publicly announced that using an extra 10 signature sheets he created 10 copies of the book with a "Debossed" "217" on the cover. These 10 books were to be Roman numerated with the first four copies intended for "Private collections", and the remaining six copies to be auctioned off annually with the proceeds (minus production costs) to be donated to The Haven Foundation.
Subsequently, SubPress sold the remaining 6 copies to Camelot Books for an undisclosed amount. Bill from SubPress purportedly said he had forwarded a check (for an unknown amount) for the sale of the books to the now Private Haven Fund foundation. Camelot announced and sold four of the six copies for $12,500 each (plus shipping). Camelot stated they were saving two copies for their "Retirement".
This whole thing is a result of SubPress not fulfilling their public commitment to auction one book per year. Public auctions (on ebay) are a fair way to sell something that collectors are interested in. Although there are fees involved with selling a book via ebay, we don't know (and it's not Camelot's obligation to disclose) what the six books were PRIVATELY sold for.
I don't care how "busy" a publisher may be, and I don't care if they possibly received the blessing of someone from Stephen King's camp to deviate from their public commitment. I do care that IMO SubPress has lost a tremendous amount of credibility, and though they might sell every book they publish from here to eternity, I personally will never fully believe any public statements they make.
I guess I see a little more room between a good intention and formal commitment. I mean, it would be fair to say last year the NY Yankees publicly committed to winning the World Series. Didn't happen. I'd file that under good intention unfulfilled...but I suppose folks would be within their rights to never watch them play again based on a broken commitment. I figure sometimes things just don't work out.
As I'm reading the various posts one thing I'm trying to square in my mind is what part of the anger is driven by the charity aspect and what part is driven by the sudden drop of random super-limited edition. For example, supposing the Friday announcement had been for the first auction, with the money going to Haven. I think at least half of this conversation still happens. Or supposing the Friday batch sale happened exactly as it did, but with no money going to Haven. Still having a conversation. I kindof feel there are two distinct flavors of anger being shared in the thread.
Alright, we'll call it a draw.
I wholeheartedly disagree. Had there been an auction on Friday - none of this would have occurred. It would have been a fair way for all collectors to bid on the books, fulfill an obligation he made, AND avoid seeing this - what I will call greed - from Camelot. My guess is they bought those copies for 6k a piece and made 24k on the sales. Pretty nice for 4 books, and not to mention they are keeping 2 for a "retirement fund". So instead of 13,000 a piece going to charity, 6 grand goes to charity (a guess) and 6 into the pockets of Camelot's owners. I understand they have a business to run but the original intention was for these books to support a charity, and in my mind they accomplished half of what they could have.
Yeah but if there had been an auction with proceeds going to Haven, wouldn't there still be a conversation (and anger) about Haven accepting money from the auction? There's still distinct frustration about whether/how Haven will take money from others after they spurned TDT.I wholeheartedly disagree. Had there been an auction on Friday - none of this would have occurred. It would have been a fair way for all collectors to bid on the books, fulfill an obligation he made, AND avoid seeing this - what I will call greed - from Camelot. My guess is they bought those copies for 6k a piece and made 24k on the sales. Pretty nice for 4 books, and not to mention they are keeping 2 for a "retirement fund". So instead of 13,000 a piece going to charity, 6 grand goes to charity (a guess) and 6 into the pockets of Camelot's owners. I understand they have a business to run but the original intention was for these books to support a charity, and in my mind they accomplished half of what they could have.
Alright, we'll call it a draw.
AND, there is nothing to substantiate that a dime ever went to the Haven Foundation!! Furthermore, the HF formally stated on letterhead that they were no longer allowed to accept outside donations per the restrictions that are associated with their re-classification of the charity imposed by the IRS. This has been somewhat substantiated even further by, Kingfan's research and discovery of no filings since 2017. S For the record, it was the policy of this site to publicly post a picture of the check that was sent to the HF and the HF's regular practice to send us a formal letter of thanks referring to the donated amount. That letter was traditionally also posted publicly by this site for everyone to note. So far, neither Sub Press nor the HF have offered anything similar to verify the charitable transaction. This seems somewhat "Off" to me that the HF would change its typical policy of thanking a donor for the contribution to the fund after regularly doing it for us many years running.I wholeheartedly disagree. Had there been an auction on Friday - none of this would have occurred. It would have been a fair way for all collectors to bid on the books, fulfill an obligation he made, AND avoid seeing this - what I will call greed - from Camelot. My guess is they bought those copies for 6k a piece and made 24k on the sales. Pretty nice for 4 books, and not to mention they are keeping 2 for a "retirement fund". So instead of 13,000 a piece going to charity, 6 grand goes to charity (a guess) and 6 into the pockets of Camelot's owners. I understand they have a business to run but the original intention was for these books to support a charity, and in my mind they accomplished half of what they could have.
If, Sub Press would produce copies of these items at least half the dilemma would be resolved. Of course, there would still be the issue of the HF accepting the donation after 2017 when it claimed to be precluded from doing so in 2017. And, Kingfan is very right in stating that the private sale resulted in very likely a much smaller amount going to charity than an auctioned would have gleaned. The whole thing smells bad and does nothing to bolster, Sub Press's reputation with me and I assume a good portion of the general King buying public. I'd say it was the converse and actually has caused damage to their reputation.
And you're saying these things shouldn't be an issue or the basis of a conversation? Seems to me that these acts broke the public trust and are therefore worthy of discussion, bewilderment and anger, no?Yeah but if there had been an auction with proceeds going to Haven, wouldn't there still be a conversation (and anger) about Haven accepting money from the auction? There's still distinct frustration about whether/how Haven will take money from others after they spurned TDT.I wholeheartedly disagree. Had there been an auction on Friday - none of this would have occurred. It would have been a fair way for all collectors to bid on the books, fulfill an obligation he made, AND avoid seeing this - what I will call greed - from Camelot. My guess is they bought those copies for 6k a piece and made 24k on the sales. Pretty nice for 4 books, and not to mention they are keeping 2 for a "retirement fund". So instead of 13,000 a piece going to charity, 6 grand goes to charity (a guess) and 6 into the pockets of Camelot's owners. I understand they have a business to run but the original intention was for these books to support a charity, and in my mind they accomplished half of what they could have.
I think we agree those things should be the the basis of a conversation. I think the conversation is a healthy thing.And you're saying these things shouldn't be an issue or the basis of a conversation? Seems to me that these acts broke the public trust and are therefore worthy of discussion, bewilderment and anger, no?Yeah but if there had been an auction with proceeds going to Haven, wouldn't there still be a conversation (and anger) about Haven accepting money from the auction? There's still distinct frustration about whether/how Haven will take money from others after they spurned TDT.I wholeheartedly disagree. Had there been an auction on Friday - none of this would have occurred. It would have been a fair way for all collectors to bid on the books, fulfill an obligation he made, AND avoid seeing this - what I will call greed - from Camelot. My guess is they bought those copies for 6k a piece and made 24k on the sales. Pretty nice for 4 books, and not to mention they are keeping 2 for a "retirement fund". So instead of 13,000 a piece going to charity, 6 grand goes to charity (a guess) and 6 into the pockets of Camelot's owners. I understand they have a business to run but the original intention was for these books to support a charity, and in my mind they accomplished half of what they could have.
Alright, we'll call it a draw.
So, hey. Subterranean have a 50% off sale going and there are some pretty good deals to be had, for example Summer of Night SL for $125, new Tim Powers SL for $30 etc.
https://subterraneanpress.com/50-off-select-titles
Wonder what this donation was for.
Looking for FAB8 CD Number 439
Bill, for clarity: Nowhere in this letter does Haven say it cannot accept donations.
Here’s the letter posted upthread:
Question: Why does anyone care that Sub Press changed their mind about a single annual auction process over a period of years and instead sold them off in a bundle to someone else who then sold them to the public all at once? Who was harmed and how were you harmed?
"...that Siren which called and sang and promised so much and gave, after all, so little." ~ Ray Bradbury
That is dated 2013 and is not relevant to this discussion. The donation in question was apparently made this year and accepted by The Haven Foundation, two years after they reclassified themselves with the IRS.
Wonder what this donation was for.
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