The Wind Through the Keyhole UK 1/200: Who owns them?

[RIC #520]

If something is issued as a signed edition, it should be signed or it's getting sent back. It's not up to the buyer to ask if the book is really signed if the book was issued as a signed edition. It's up to the seller to list defects etc. If you bought a brand new car, would you ask if it came with brakes?

Ah, but books aren't held to those standards are they? If I returned every book that had a flaw or wasn't "as advertised", I would have very few left.

The first basic requirement of a book is that it is readable. However, I would say 95% of the books I've read have typos to one extent or another. Maybe I should send them back and request a copy without typos? Yeah, right!

And what about publisher's claims of a novel being "a thrilling roller-coaster ride", etc. only for it to turn out to be a damp squib? Refund, please?

Anyway, back to the matter in hand. If the book is new and sealed, then the seller is unaware of any internal flaws it may have, so cannot be said to be misrepresenting them.

This is the primary reason I do not buy un-open older books unless I have no choice. Which is not many times.. You don't know what you are getting and secondly, the seller usually wants a premium for the book being “sealed”.. I think some folks collect a sealed book, that’s OK, and more than likely these books will never be opened. My preference is for the book to be opened and inspected before I buy, because a lot of sellers refuse to stay behind their sales.. Like the example here...

[Scoogs]

I'd also point out that it's not exactly difficult to re-shrinkwrap a book.
There's also the fact that shrinkwrap is generally cheap and not made to be archival.

I actually have had a book damaged by old shrinkwrap.

[JasonUK]

I'd also point out that it's not exactly difficult to re-shrinkwrap a book.

I've bought a few items over the years that have been re-shrinkwrapped. It's quite easy to spot the difference between a factory-sealed book and one done by hand.

I think it's interesting that the responses here seem to hold secondhand book sellers to a higher standard than publishers. Perhaps anyone selling a book just needs to follow Subterranean Press's example and include a disclaimer with the sale, like with the recent sale of THE SHINING.

"One final note: We're not responsible for lost or damaged international orders of the Limited and Lettered edition of The Shining."

Do I hear any complaints about that or calls to boycott the publisher? No, heaven forbid you upset the publisher and get refused access to any of their future titles. Instead pick on the guy who buys a book from a publisher in good faith that it is as described, keeps it sealed to ensure it remains in pristine condition, and then merely wants to sell it on in the same good faith.

[Jimimck]

Actually there were some comments about that disclaimer, especially considering the cost of international shipping. A lot of people here have voiced their intent to boycott publishers in the past, for a variety of different reasons. (The 11/22/63 s/l debacle, the Grant WTTK delay in shipping and quality issues just to name a couple).

What I said was that the members HERE hold sellers HERE to a higher standard than you seem to accept as a good behaviour. You can sell on eBay with what ever attitude to fixing a problem you like, but I was just suggesting you may want to rethink that kind of stance to create a good reputation around this community of collectors.

[divemaster]

I think it's interesting that the responses here seem to hold secondhand book sellers to a higher standard than publishers.

There's no higher standard. If a publisher sold me a defective book I'd either ask for a replacement or a refund. In fact, I once bought a S/L book that had 13 pages missing. I got it swapped out for a undamaged copy. Of course, if I'd never opened the book I would not have discovered the error. I would demand no more or no less from any seller.

Perhaps anyone selling a book just needs to follow Subterranean Press's example and include a disclaimer with the sale, like with the recent sale of THE SHINING.

"One final note: We're not responsible for lost or damaged international orders of the Limited and Lettered edition of The Shining."

That not a valid comparison. Sub Press is saying it is not responsible for the actions of the Post Office. That's not the same thing as not taking responsibility for the item itself. I happen to disagree with Sub Press here--I think it is a better business model to just eat that cost if it does come up. But it's not like they are selling defective copies and just responding "too bad, sucker!" when one is discovered.

[JasonUK]

That not a valid comparison. Sub Press is saying it is not responsible for the actions of the Post Office. That's not the same thing as not taking responsibility for the item itself. I happen to disagree with Sub Press here--I think it is a better business model to just eat that cost if it does come up. But it's not like they are selling defective copies and just responding "too bad, sucker!" when one is discovered.

No, actually they are saying that they don't need to send a copy of the book at all, and just claim it was lost, because they never provide tracking numbers anyway. Or they could send a knowingly damaged copy and say, "Oh well, must have happened in transit. Too bad, sucker!".

But even taking your interpretation, you say Sub Press send the book out in good faith, but they can't be held responsible for the actions of the postal service. But a private seller can send out a brand new book still in the pubisher's shrinkwrap, in the genuine belief that there is nothing wrong with it, and if the book is subsequently opened and found to have a flaw then the seller IS responsible for the actions of the publisher. That's not a double standard I can live with.

[ChristineB]

But even taking your interpretation, you say Sub Press send the book out in good faith, but they can't be held responsible for the actions of the postal service. But a private seller can send out a brand new book still in the pubisher's shrinkwrap, in the genuine belief that there is nothing wrong with it, and if the book is subsequently opened and found to have a flaw then the seller IS responsible for the actions of the publisher. That's not a double standard I can live with.

So let's say you buy a sealed copy of the 11/22/63 s/l (which we all know here had quite a few publishing flaws), you get it from the seller, open it and find it, like so many others of them, does no have the sig page in it, you are not going to expect a refund from the seller? You would be fine with losing the money you paid for it just because the seller thought it wise to not inspect the item he was selling?

From my pov, it is the sellers responsibility to confirm the condition of the item they are selling, if you are a seller and chose not to inspect the merchandise you are selling, but still say it is "like new", "fine condition" etc. then you are taking the responsibility for those claims. If when the book is opened it is not as stated that is on the seller, not the buyer, no matter if the flaws were caused by the publisher or not. Just my opinion.

I hate to see books left in shrink wrap, it's not like that stuff was made to be left on the book, it's not archival quality and after seeing what it can do to the book if it is left on too long, I just cringe when I do see any books in it. I mean really, would you not make sure any of the bags you guys use to put your books in were archival quality? Just my 2 cents.

[WeDealInLead]

But even taking your interpretation, you say Sub Press send the book out in good faith, but they can't be held responsible for the actions of the postal service. But a private seller can send out a brand new book still in the pubisher's shrinkwrap, in the genuine belief that there is nothing wrong with it, and if the book is subsequently opened and found to have a flaw then the seller IS responsible for the actions of the publisher. That's not a double standard I can live with.

So let's say you buy a sealed copy of the 11/22/63 s/l (which we all know here had quite a few publishing flaws), you get it from the seller, open it and find it, like so many others of them, does no have the sig page in it, you are not going to expect a refund from the seller? You would be fine with losing the money you paid for it just because the seller thought it wise to not inspect the item he was selling?

From my pov, it is the sellers responsibility to confirm the condition of the item they are selling, if you are a seller and chose not to inspect the merchandise you are selling, but still say it is "like new", "fine condition" etc. then you are taking the responsibility for those claims. If when the book is opened it is not as stated that is on the seller, not the buyer, no matter if the flaws were caused by the publisher or not. Just my opinion.

I hate to see books left in shrink wrap, it's not like that stuff was made to be left on the book, it's not archival quality and after seeing what it can do to the book if it is left on too long, I just cringe when I do see any books in it. I mean really, would you not make sure any of the bags you guys use to put your books in were archival quality? Just my 2 cents.

Ditto. Ha.

Jason, I see where you're coming from. You're not a big distributor and the money you get from a sale is (if you're like me, or I'm guessing most of us here) gone instantly on other books, bills etc. Ultimately, it's your responsibility as a seller to adverstise truthfully and pleading ignorance when dealing with hundreds of dollars wouldn't cut it. You would also have no way of proving that it wasn't you who shrinkwrapped the book.

I don't want to get into SP, spelling, typos etc because in this case it's irrelevant. This is about the signature page missing from a signed edition. That's the selling point of the book.

Again, my comparison to buying a car without wheels stands. I waited longer on my Toyota because I wanted it in a certain colour. If it had shown up in a different colour, I'd have not taken it. I really don't care the dealer didn't do anything wrong - that's not what I paid for. He can work it out with their warehouse. And the original owner of TWTTK could take it up with the publisher and get the money back. SP, Grant and CD are all excellent when it comes to that.

You would probably feel a little less charitable if you bought a $500 signed book and it wasn't signed. That's just a hunch though.

[JasonUK]

I get what everyone is saying, it just seems incredibly unfair to me. In the past, I have had multiple copies of limited editions to sell, such as Joe Hill's Heart Shaped Box and China Mieville's The Iron Council, which have come from the publisher shrinkwrapped and I open one to take photos. The sealed copies always sell for more than the open ones. Fortunately, I've never had a problem, but now it seems I've got to deliberately lower the re-sale value of books as I need to check them because of the shoddy production standards of some publishers.

[Merlin1958]

I get what everyone is saying, it just seems incredibly unfair to me. In the past, I have had multiple copies of limited editions to sell, such as Joe Hill's Heart Shaped Box and China Mieville's The Iron Council, which have come from the publisher shrinkwrapped and I open one to take photos. The sealed copies always sell for more than the open ones. Fortunately, I've never had a problem, but now it seems I've got to deliberately lower the re-sale value of books as I need to check them because of the shoddy production standards of some publishers.

Seems to me, as you stated, Shrink wrapped books sell at a higher premium so it seems fair that the seller should bear the extra risk associated with the higher profit, no?

Especially, since you have negated the publisher's responsibility in the matter by not opening and inspecting the delivery in a timely fashion in which the publisher could rectify the mishap. That would seem to go hand in hand with the higher profit margin and the seller assuming the original dealers liability in the matter.

[tippy4]

I bought the trade edition of Knowing Darkness and it came without a slipcase. The seller said the listing didn't mention it came with a slipcase even though that's how it was issued. What a shitbag. Should I have asked if it came with pictures and words too?

I had to laugh when I read this as I had the same thing happen to me. DT6SL showed up without a slipcase. I think it was a PC edition, but I sold it long ago and am not sure. When my seller said the same thing your seller did, I remember thinking EXACTLY what you did.

We make resonable assumptions about the items we buy, and when those assumptions are not met, it is very annoying.

[tippy4]

I get what everyone is saying, it just seems incredibly unfair to me. In the past, I have had multiple copies of limited editions to sell, such as Joe Hill's Heart Shaped Box and China Mieville's The Iron Council, which have come from the publisher shrinkwrapped and I open one to take photos. The sealed copies always sell for more than the open ones. Fortunately, I've never had a problem, but now it seems I've got to deliberately lower the re-sale value of books as I need to check them because of the shoddy production standards of some publishers.

Seems to me, as you stated, Shrink wrapped books sell at a higher premium so it seems fair that the seller should bear the extra risk associated with the higher profit, no?

Especially, since you have negated the publisher's responsibility in the matter by not opening and inspecting the delivery in a timely fashion in which the publisher could rectify the mishap. That would seem to go hand in hand with the higher profit margin and the seller assuming the original dealers liability in the matter.

Bill...get ready for a shock...I completely agree with you.

Look, if you are going to buy books to sell for a profit (and I see nothing wrong with that), you also assume the liability.

This is why I always get annoyed with people out there who piss and moan about people who do this because they do not realize those books could end up getting sold at a loss due to dropping market prices, Post Office mishaps, publisher errors, etc.

Sometimes you win. Sometimes you lose. Sometimes you break even.

Here is an idea.....after you sell a book, tell your seller you would like to open the book to confirm everything is in order before you send it out. Otherwise, you cannot be liable if it is a missing the signature. To make the buyer happy, install a Brodart cover on the book.

[Merlin1958]

I get what everyone is saying, it just seems incredibly unfair to me. In the past, I have had multiple copies of limited editions to sell, such as Joe Hill's Heart Shaped Box and China Mieville's The Iron Council, which have come from the publisher shrinkwrapped and I open one to take photos. The sealed copies always sell for more than the open ones. Fortunately, I've never had a problem, but now it seems I've got to deliberately lower the re-sale value of books as I need to check them because of the shoddy production standards of some publishers.

Seems to me, as you stated, Shrink wrapped books sell at a higher premium so it seems fair that the seller should bear the extra risk associated with the higher profit, no?

Especially, since you have negated the publisher's responsibility in the matter by not opening and inspecting the delivery in a timely fashion in which the publisher could rectify the mishap. That would seem to go hand in hand with the higher profit margin and the seller assuming the original dealers liability in the matter.

Bill...get ready for a shock...I completely agree with you.

Look, if you are going to buy books to sell for a profit (and I see nothing wrong with that), you also assume the liability.

This is why I always get annoyed with people out there who piss and moan about people who do this because they do not realize those books could end up getting sold at a loss due to dropping market prices, Post Office mishaps, publisher errors, etc.

Sometimes you win. Sometimes you lose. Sometimes you break even.

Should we order a cake???? LOL LOL LOL

Nice that we are in agreement for a change!! Feels good!!

[RIC #520]

OK... let's move on.. There seem to be a new owner for #167... sold today on ebay... anybody know the buyer?

[JasonUK]

Okay, I opened my copy it's #155 and shock-horror it was signed. You can take me off the un-open list.

[Merlin1958]

Okay, I opened my copy it's #155 and shock-horror it was signed. You can take me off the un-open list.

This is a big step for you, Jason!!! How did you "feel" when you opened it? LOL LOL LOL J/K!!!

Good for you!!!

[RIC #520]

Okay, I opened my copy it's #155 and shock-horror it was signed. You can take me off the un-open list.

Cool..
Are you sir.jason?

[JasonUK]

Yep.

[RIC #520]

I updated for Betts Books sale.. any other updates? Anyone?

[RIC #520]

updated first page with owner thetoyboy2013 (un-open copy)

[Jimimck]

I see you are recording where people ordered from. I got mine from Hatchards also, ordering via email direct with the store.
Number 69.

Cheers

[RIC #520]

Thanks for the update

[Merlin1958]

How the heck can all you folks , not commercially involved, stand to not open your books? It's crazy, IMHO!!!

Un-open - Roseannebarr (TDT)
Un-open - LostAlivE (TDT) Note: No plans to open
Un-open - RIC #520 (TDT) North Carolina, USA [original owner agrabin] Note: No plans to open
Un-open - TheCollector (SK Collector) [Hatchards ATM]
Un-open - sgc1999 (TDT)
Un-open - ur2ndbiggestfan (SK Collector)
Un-open - killbourne (TDT) California, USA [Hatchards]
Un-open - STEPHEN RODGERS (SK Collector) [Waterstones in Hanley in Stoke on Trent] Note: No plans to open at this time
Un-open - carlosdetweiller (TDT) Texas, USA [Waterstones] Note: No plans to open at this time
Un-open - Johnny007 (TDT) aka bethirsty007 (eBay) Virginia, USA [eBay purchase from bigfootcomic 5/20/2012] Note: No plans to open at this time
Un-open - Fsmdr (TDT) Note: No plans to open
Un-open - Dan Jarvis (friend of STEPHEN RODGERS) Stoke on Trent England UK [Waterstones in Hanley in Stoke on Trent]
Un-open - Rachel Readman (TDT) Cornwall, UK Note: Plan to open eventually
Un-open - derPrediger (German SK Forum)
Un-open - Lauterer (German SK Forum)
Un-open - sweet4action (eBay) UK [eBay purchase from killbourne_kram aka killbourne (TDT) $500.00 4/29/2012] Note: No plans to open
Un-open - sweet4action (eBay) UK [eBay purchase from ricmondo1 £255 5/20/2012] Note: No plans to open
Un-open - darkwoodsprods (eBay) California, US [eBay purchase from signedbookaddict (eBay) aka CDK Books, Long Valley, NJ for $650 6/3/2012]
Un-open - hyneeho (eBay) New Jersey, USA [eBay purchase from timelydc $449.95 6/6/2012] Note: No plans to open at this time
Un-open - georgei207 (eBay) Maine, USA [eBay purchase from sskilpatrick $499.95 6/8/2012] Note: No plans to open at this time
Un-open - anonymous collector in Kansas, USA [purchase from Betts Books, USA (bettsbooks.com) $575.00 6/7/2012, original owner wizardsrainbow]
Un-open - bauchelain (eBay) UK [eBay purchase from shepherdcollector £187.66 8/11/2012]
Un-open - geert760 (eBay) Netherlands [eBay purchase from 12pochard, stoke on trent, Staffordshire, UK £245.00 10/14/2012
Un-open - mikeyw (TDT) [purchase from Betts Books, USA (bettsbooks.com), original owner wizardsrainbow]
Un-open - unknown [purchased from CDK Books, Long Valley, NJ (abebooks.com) & signedbookaddict (eBay)] * First of two Un-open copies sold
Un-open - anonymous collector [purchase from Betts Books, USA (bettsbooks.com) asking price $575, original owner wizardsrainbow]
Un-open – thetoyboy2013 (eBay) Australia [eBay purchase from coilioc Roseburg, OR, USA
Un-open – camulodunumbooks (eBay) Roseburg, UK *** Status Unknown***
Un-open – Very Fine Books (veryfinebooks.com) *** Status Unknown***
Un-open – blaeberry (eBay) Edinburgh, Midlothian, UK *** Status Unknown ***
Un-open – Blue Sky Books, Culver City,California (biblio.com) *** For Sale $650.00***

[Patrick]

Yeah! Open your books! I want to know if you have the number I want, so we can work a trade.

[Lauterer]

How the heck can all you folks , not commercially involved, stand to not open your books? It's crazy, IMHO!!!

Un-open - Roseannebarr (TDT)
Un-open - LostAlivE (TDT) Note: No plans to open
Un-open - RIC #520 (TDT) North Carolina, USA [original owner agrabin] Note: No plans to open
Un-open - TheCollector (SK Collector) [Hatchards ATM]
Un-open - sgc1999 (TDT)
Un-open - ur2ndbiggestfan (SK Collector)
Un-open - killbourne (TDT) California, USA [Hatchards]
Un-open - STEPHEN RODGERS (SK Collector) [Waterstones in Hanley in Stoke on Trent] Note: No plans to open at this time
Un-open - carlosdetweiller (TDT) Texas, USA [Waterstones] Note: No plans to open at this time
Un-open - Johnny007 (TDT) aka bethirsty007 (eBay) Virginia, USA [eBay purchase from bigfootcomic 5/20/2012] Note: No plans to open at this time
Un-open - Fsmdr (TDT) Note: No plans to open
Un-open - Dan Jarvis (friend of STEPHEN RODGERS) Stoke on Trent England UK [Waterstones in Hanley in Stoke on Trent]
Un-open - Rachel Readman (TDT) Cornwall, UK Note: Plan to open eventually
Un-open - derPrediger (German SK Forum)
Un-open - Lauterer (German SK Forum)
Un-open - sweet4action (eBay) UK [eBay purchase from killbourne_kram aka killbourne (TDT) $500.00 4/29/2012] Note: No plans to open
Un-open - sweet4action (eBay) UK [eBay purchase from ricmondo1 £255 5/20/2012] Note: No plans to open
Un-open - darkwoodsprods (eBay) California, US [eBay purchase from signedbookaddict (eBay) aka CDK Books, Long Valley, NJ for $650 6/3/2012]
Un-open - hyneeho (eBay) New Jersey, USA [eBay purchase from timelydc $449.95 6/6/2012] Note: No plans to open at this time
Un-open - georgei207 (eBay) Maine, USA [eBay purchase from sskilpatrick $499.95 6/8/2012] Note: No plans to open at this time
Un-open - anonymous collector in Kansas, USA [purchase from Betts Books, USA (bettsbooks.com) $575.00 6/7/2012, original owner wizardsrainbow]
Un-open - bauchelain (eBay) UK [eBay purchase from shepherdcollector £187.66 8/11/2012]
Un-open - geert760 (eBay) Netherlands [eBay purchase from 12pochard, stoke on trent, Staffordshire, UK £245.00 10/14/2012
Un-open - mikeyw (TDT) [purchase from Betts Books, USA (bettsbooks.com), original owner wizardsrainbow]
Un-open - unknown [purchased from CDK Books, Long Valley, NJ (abebooks.com) & signedbookaddict (eBay)] * First of two Un-open copies sold
Un-open - anonymous collector [purchase from Betts Books, USA (bettsbooks.com) asking price $575, original owner wizardsrainbow]
Un-open – thetoyboy2013 (eBay) Australia [eBay purchase from coilioc Roseburg, OR, USA
Un-open – camulodunumbooks (eBay) Roseburg, UK *** Status Unknown***
Un-open – Very Fine Books (veryfinebooks.com) *** Status Unknown***
Un-open – blaeberry (eBay) Edinburgh, Midlothian, UK *** Status Unknown ***
Un-open – Blue Sky Books, Culver City,California (biblio.com) *** For Sale $650.00***

If you other people all remove your shrinkwraps, i know my number... so gogogog...