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Thread: The Fate of Flagg..SPOILERS!

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    Traveler Chels921 is on a distinguished road Chels921's Avatar

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    Default The Fate of Flagg..SPOILERS!

    Are you happy with the way King choose to end Flagg? For ex., instead of Mordred, don't you think it would've been better for Roland to have killed him, considering Flagg was responsible for the death of so many of his close friends?

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    Hated it. Worse thing King has ever done. Even if King wanted to show that Flagg was a "bumhug" he deserved at least one final confrontation with Roland given that the very first sentence of the series was building up their conflict.

    Welcome to the forum, btw.

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    Though I'd have loved a Flagg/Roland confrontation I think Flagg got exactly what he deserved.
    The Awesomest fled across the desert and The Awesomer followed.

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    I wish that I could write fiction, but that seems almost an impossibility. -howard phillips lovecraft (1915)



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    Quote Originally Posted by CyberGhostface View Post
    Hated it. Worse thing King has ever done. Even if King wanted to show that Flagg was a "bumhug" he deserved at least one final confrontation with Roland given that the very first sentence of the series was building up their conflict.
    The very first sentence is built on Flagg eluding Roland. Just like he always avoided any kind of confrontation.

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    Flagg got his in the end!!!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jean View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by CyberGhostface View Post
    Hated it. Worse thing King has ever done. Even if King wanted to show that Flagg was a "bumhug" he deserved at least one final confrontation with Roland given that the very first sentence of the series was building up their conflict.
    The very first sentence is built on Flagg eluding Roland. Just like he always avoided any kind of confrontation.
    Regardless, it still established him as Roland's arch-nemesis early on. Although in that case he was probably playing a game of cat and mouse with Roland.

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    I know, Cyber, we've had this discussion 7 years next October. I see your point to an extent. I still think that King didn't refuse to write the Big Confrontation because he was unable to, or lazy, or something, but because he, like me, saw that it wouldn't fit into Flagg's character and all his known mode of actions; but I understand how one may feel cheated.

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    Blah, blah, blah... it's a complaint we hear over and over from different people. Didn't bother me much first time I read it, and now that I've heard lots of folken saying that it wasn't what they expected, I'm just glad that we didn't get what lots did expect 'cause I've realized that that would have been so boring.

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    Yes, getting what you expect is bad.
    The Awesomest fled across the desert and The Awesomer followed.

    If you rescue me
    Iíll be your friend forever


    I wish that I could write fiction, but that seems almost an impossibility. -howard phillips lovecraft (1915)



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    On one hand I'd like to have seen each member of the ka-tet using their skills--Jake's touch, Eddie's carving etc.--to defeat Flagg. On the other hand, if you look at The Stand, and The Gunslinger, he gets a couple of lucky ladies pregnant. I'd think a wizard like him could come up with some spell or trick of the Old Ones to keep that from happening if he didn't want a child. Hence Mordred must have been the culmination of some ambition King forogt about or didn't go in depth about...and it bit him (Flagg) in the bum. Sweet justice.

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    The series should have ended with Roland taking a dump, tripping and cracking his head open on the toilet. That would be more unexpected than him reaching the Tower at the end, wouldn't it?

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    Citizen of Gilead Empath of the White is on a distinguished road Empath of the White's Avatar

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    I'd prefer that he reached the Tower, slipped on a slick stone as he was climbing it and plummetted out one of the side windows into the waiting maw of a todash beastie. If we want to be unpredictable, that its.

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    I would have loved for Flagg to meet his demise at the hands of Roland after all of the pain and suffering he put him through.

    Roland's guns vs Flagg's dark magic. Bah gawd.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Girlystevedave View Post
    I'm just nodding my head the whole time thinking "ok, stop now, please."

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    Oh, no doubt he deserved it, but he deserved less too.
    The Awesomest fled across the desert and The Awesomer followed.

    If you rescue me
    Iíll be your friend forever


    I wish that I could write fiction, but that seems almost an impossibility. -howard phillips lovecraft (1915)



  15. #15
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    Yar, I see the point... kind of. His end was not "cool" ... whatever that means.

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    Gunslinger Apprentice BigSchu22 is on a distinguished road BigSchu22's Avatar

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    I was disappointed by the ending, but I see it fit in the way that he didn't deserve a conflict or as other have mentioned in other threads, King has a way of silently ending the worst of his characters as if it's worse for them to die in such an easy fashion -- kind of a slap in the face that they get killed in the easiest most trivial way.

    I always wondered why it seems that throughout the novels, Flagg is actually helping Roland to an extent. There are many examples, Flagg teaching Roland the hypnotizing trick with the bullet, leaving the ka-tet with packed lunch boxes after they leave the crystal palace, giving black 13 to Father Callahan (even though the rainbow is cursed, it still helped them travel from world to world), and Roland didn't catch him in the Gunslinger, he let Roland catch up, then he proceeded to answer his questions and let him go. There are other examples I can't quite remember, but it seems that more often than not, Flagg is leading him to the tower rather than preventing him from reaching it, even though he knows the prophecy and is an agent of CK.

    I suppose at some times the "help" is actually part of his twisted plans to torment Roland in some future way, but it just seems like he has more than his share of opportunities to eliminate Roland and doesn't or his plans are too overly complicated in a TV super villain sort of way.
    Scorpius: Kill her. Then we'll have pizza and margarita shooters. Go on, John. Kill her. Do it. Do it.
    John Crichton: [aims gun at Scorpius instead] Nobody has margaritas with pizza.





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    Quote Originally Posted by BigSchu22 View Post
    ... There are other examples I can't quite remember...
    Does "tape recorder" ring a bell? *giggle*
    Quote Originally Posted by BigSchu22 View Post
    ... it just seems like he has more than his share of opportunities to eliminate Roland and doesn't or his plans are too overly complicated in a TV super villain sort of way.
    I know, right?!

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    Gunslinger Apprentice BigSchu22 is on a distinguished road BigSchu22's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by pathoftheturtle View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by BigSchu22 View Post
    ... There are other examples I can't quite remember...
    Does "tape recorder" ring a bell? *giggle*
    Quote Originally Posted by BigSchu22 View Post
    ... it just seems like he has more than his share of opportunities to eliminate Roland and doesn't or his plans are too overly complicated in a TV super villain sort of way.
    I know, right?!
    Are you talking about the tape recorder Ted leaves in the cave for Roland and the ka-tet to listen to?
    Scorpius: Kill her. Then we'll have pizza and margarita shooters. Go on, John. Kill her. Do it. Do it.
    John Crichton: [aims gun at Scorpius instead] Nobody has margaritas with pizza.





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    Good comparison as a matter of fact, but actually I'm talking about Wolves of the Calla --
    "... We'd gone out to a cave near the old garnet mines and there we found a message."
    "What kind of message?"
    " 'Twas a macine set in the cave's mouth," Henchick said. "Push a button and a voice came out of it. The voice told us to come here."
    "You knew of this cave before?"
    "Aye, but before the Pere came, it were called the Cave of Voices. For reasons which thee now knows."
    Roland nodded and motioned for Henchick to go on.
    "The voice from the machine spoke in accents like those of your ka-mates, gunslinger. It said that we should come here, Jemmin and I, and we'd find a door and a man and a wonder. So we did."
    "Someone left you instructions," Roland mused. It was Walter he was thinking of. The man in black, who had also left them the cookies Eddie called Keeblers. Walter was Flagg and Flagg was Marten and Marten... was he Maerlyn, the old rouge wizard of legend? On that subject, Roland remained unsure. "And spoke to you by name?"
    "Nay, he did not know s'much. Only called us Manni-folk."
    "How did this someone know where to leave the voice machine, do you think?"
    Henchick's lips thinned. "Why must thee think it was a person? Why not a god speaking in a man's voice? Why not some agent of The Over?"
    Roland said, "Gods leave siguls. Men leave machines." ...

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    Quote Originally Posted by pathoftheturtle View Post
    Good comparison as a matter of fact, but actually I'm talking about Wolves of the Calla --
    "... We'd gone out to a cave near the old garnet mines and there we found a message."
    "What kind of message?"
    " 'Twas a macine set in the cave's mouth," Henchick said. "Push a button and a voice came out of it. The voice told us to come here."
    "You knew of this cave before?"
    "Aye, but before the Pere came, it were called the Cave of Voices. For reasons which thee now knows."
    Roland nodded and motioned for Henchick to go on.
    "The voice from the machine spoke in accents like those of your ka-mates, gunslinger. It said that we should come here, Jemmin and I, and we'd find a door and a man and a wonder. So we did."
    "Someone left you instructions," Roland mused. It was Walter he was thinking of. The man in black, who had also left them the cookies Eddie called Keeblers. Walter was Flagg and Flagg was Marten and Marten... was he Maerlyn, the old rouge wizard of legend? On that subject, Roland remained unsure. "And spoke to you by name?"
    "Nay, he did not know s'much. Only called us Manni-folk."
    "How did this someone know where to leave the voice machine, do you think?"
    Henchick's lips thinned. "Why must thee think it was a person? Why not a god speaking in a man's voice? Why not some agent of The Over?"
    Roland said, "Gods leave siguls. Men leave machines." ...
    Oh yeah! I had completely forgotten about that. I like how he even mentions the food Flagg left for them after the encounter in W&G. See, why is he helping his enemies again?
    Scorpius: Kill her. Then we'll have pizza and margarita shooters. Go on, John. Kill her. Do it. Do it.
    John Crichton: [aims gun at Scorpius instead] Nobody has margaritas with pizza.





  21. #21
    Gunslinger Apprentice Tik will become famous soon enough Tik's Avatar

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    While I understand people's need for Roland to be there for the end of Flagg, I still say his death was great. Regardless of whether Roland was there or not, we definitely needed a Mordred there too. In every confrontation with Flagg, Roland has proved that simply shooting him doesn't work. Also in order for someone to kill him for good, they need to negate Flagg's emergency teleport. Mordred seizing control of Flagg's mind was a great way to do this and get the job done.

  22. #22
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    In every confrontation with Flagg, Roland has proved that simply shooting him doesn't work. Also in order for someone to kill him for good, they need to negate Flagg's emergency teleport.
    Well there could have been a number of ways for Roland to work that around with a deus ex machina. Something like how in Lost
    Spoiler:
    the Man in Black lost his invulnerability once the "cork" was removed
    or in Harry Potter
    Spoiler:
    once all the Horcruxes were destroyed Voldemort could be killed.


    Like let's say Flagg's power is somehow tied to the Wizard's Rainbow, so after such and such is destroyed Flagg loses most of his power. Or say that his power is negated in the presence of the Tower and Gan's influence. And this is just me thinking off the top of my head. King introduced the concept of a magical eraser erasing the Crimson King so he's not above such things.

    Personally when King introduced the concept of Todash Darkness in SoS I thought that's how he was going to "kill off" Flagg since he was immortal -- having him float around in darkness for the rest of existence. That would have been a suitable "punishment" that doesn't cheapen his character.

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    Yes, there could have been many ways of doing him in. But my point still stands, Roland cant use his guns. There needed to be a "Mordred" to finish the job, whatever form that may take.

    Mordred did a good job. I'm a big fan of Flagg, he's my favorite villain in any medium, and I didn't think his death scene cheapened the character. It was delightfully gruesome.

  24. #24
    John F. Kennedy Blaine Is A Pain is on a distinguished road

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    As it has been mentioned in the thread already you guys have discussed this a lot over the years. I was actually surprised Roland or one of the Ka-tet members did not take him down. Or all of them for that matter. So, the way he went out actually did surprise me quite a bit at the time. But I agree it was an incredibly gruesome and disgusting way to go out. I LOVED it!!! Also, it gave Mordred a lot of credibility as a force to be reckoned with the rest of the way. I wondered what it was going to take for Roland to get the job done since he basically had him at the Wizard of Oz palace if it were not for his missing fingers. Good stuff Mr. King!

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    John F. Kennedy unclelouie will become famous soon enough

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    I know this thread hasn't been comented on in a few months, but I just finished the part in DT VII last night, before I went to bed, where Walter meets his end at the hands of Mordred.

    I thought it to great for 2 reasons..

    1) It brought the story full circle. When I read the Gunslinger, I asked myself, and even posted on the SK forum the musing... "why didnt Walter just kill Roland at the end of the first novel". Well, Walter explains why in DT VII... because if he had killed Roland, Mordred would have never been born... and Walter needed Mordred to enter the tower (and of course Walter was in the service of the King). However, the ultimate prankster got played at the end. I think of it has beautiful irony. And what a way for Walter to meet his end.... to be eaten alive... eyes.. tongue... by the "child" he helped bring into this world.

    2) Walter might have been Roland's "oldest enemy", but let's face it... not his "greatest enemy". I think that Walter was obsessed with Roland. I get the feeling Roland rarely thought twice about Walter while on the journey. Walter was sort of an annoyance to Roland when he ran into him, but honestly...... during Roland's journey... throughout 7 novels... he runs into Flagg like, what twice? Walter died without the dignity of having ever gotten to face off with Roland after he told him to denounce the Tower.

    And sure "Marten" banged Roland's mom, but... did Roland even know Marten *was* Walter/Flagg? I cant remember if that was ever mentioned.

    Plus, Walter is "quasi" mortal. Roland is mortal. The ending was suitable.

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