The Stand - Let's Discuss! *SPOILERS*

[The Lady of Shadows]

remember that arbiter of insanity thing ryan?

[obscurejude]

Hey, I thought I was a purveyor of wisdom in all the non Greta threads.

[The Lady of Shadows]

you were until you started fucking with the stand. then i decided you might really be the arbiter of insanity.

[obscurejude]

I thought you knew I wasn't a big fan. Anyways, I'll take your self damning response off the air.

[The Lady of Shadows]

i had no idea. are you serious? what don't you like about it? no i'm curious. (and it's not a self damning response. so there )

[obscurejude]

I critiqued it very heavily in the Stand vs. Cell thread. It shouldn't be too hard to find. I'll try to find it.

[obscurejude]

Found the link. I have a few more post on the page after this one, too, I think.

http://www.thedarktower.org/palaver/...C+Stand&page=2

[The Lady of Shadows]

note: obscurejude's quotes are taken from Cell or The Stand? Small Chance of Spoilers.

Before I get into my post, I understand that everyone will disagree with me.

I voted for Cell because I think it demonstrates King's reservations about technology much more clearer than the Stand. The characterizations are not as strong as the Stand, but part of that is only do to its brevity. One of the common critiques about the Stand unabridged is that the added parts really don't supplement the text in any substantive way. I think this is due to the fact that the text contains far too many unnecessary passages to begin with. A lot of the Stand is disjointed for me, sub plots within subplots, and upon my fairly recent re-read, I decided I didn't like it very much. Cell had a defined plot (action via Aristotle) and everything else at his disposal in terms of writing was subservient to a defined moral impression that he was trying to get across. While I appreciate spontaneous whimsical writing, sometimes it becomes self defeating when perspective is lost. I found Cell much more cogent in terms of ideology, and that is the sign of a mature writer in my opinion.

okay. i think i understand what you're saying here. but i don't see the stand as a novel about the dangers of technology so much as a novel about the fight between good and evil and the need to make a choice. the need to decide once and for all who you are, who you're going to be, and whether that person is one who is good or evil. i agree that the technology theme is there, but it really is kind of a sideline for me. yes, they have to get the lights on. yes, all that stuff is just lying around waiting for someone to pick it up again. yes, randall flagg is in vegas doing his thing. but the important thing is who these people are, how they are going to survive, and what kind of people they are going to be. and whether they are going to make a stand for the good that is left in humanity to be able to survive.

also, i thought the added parts, especially the addition to trashy's travails and travels, really added something. fleshing out certains areas allowed that stunted feeling, that disjointed feeling to be dissolved. at least for me. plus, especially again in trashy's case, it really allowed you to see what he went through to get to what he felt was his destiny. i think cutting those parts out in the beginning was a big mistake. huge. and i was glad to see it rectified.

:hangs head in shame:

Its strange, the critique that I gave the Stand above could easily be applied to the gunslinger as well, but I love it despite disjointed feel.

Folks, I love the Stand, but I stand by my critique (no pun intended). I read somewhere that King himself was pretty sick of it and put it down for a number of months before picking it back up again, not sure how to keep the story flowing (this is when he wrote the scene where the bomb takes out a number of the good guys- he needed something to keep the plot going). King was also very surprised that so many people embraced it. I think Cell hits a very similar thematic nerve in the collective conscience of modern America, but it doesn't have the same novelty of the Stand.

king's been displeased with a lot of his works. that doesn't stop them from being magnificent though does it? look at the tower. he put that fucker away for how long? just boxed it up and decided it was over. but now look at it. look at the journey. look at us. and he's been surprised by a lot of his novels. he was surprised by the response to rose madder. hell, he threw away carrie for god's sake. i feel about his response to his own work the way i feel about his response to politics. "thanks for the opinion steve-o, but i'll make up my own mind, do it please ya. say thankya."

i think cell does hit "a thematic nerve in the collective conscience of modern america" and i think it speaks to his own personal fear (hatred?) of certain modern devices (hell, the man doesn't even own a cell phone yet, does he?). but it doesn't have that apocalyptic battle between good and evil. that overwhelming sense that "this is it". that understanding that a final battle between the white and the red has arrived.

Its relevant in at least 2 ways:

1) I was indelibly aware that King had lost his way and so it was hard for me to be captive by a story that was struggling itself to remain alive.

2) King was surprised and after some discussion last night with my roomate I think I know why. Due to the weakness of the plot (in terms of linear dynamic) the characters of the story are exceptionally strong because so much information is given about them. Perhaps King recognized (due in part to reader response) that this was one of his exceptional gifts. I think IT is a much better example of a combination of strong characters and a strong plot. So many parts of the Stand are anti-climactic because nothing could really stop the momentum of the characters (it took an ex deus machina in the form of the hand of God to end the novel). I'm glad the Stand happened, because I think it taught him a lot about writing. I often think of the Stand when I read the opening essay to the revised Gunslinger and King talks about the original having a lot of the problems associated with young writers. I see a lot of the problems (I use this word loosely, King's not mine) magnified with the Stand because it is so much longer. The Stand is a book by a young writer, that's really all I'm saying. For that reason its stronger and weaker, full of brave pretension but also naive brashness. The same disparity between the Gunslinger and the rest of the DT books is analogous to the Stand and Cell (at least in regards to my aforementioned posts).<SNIP>

king lost his way with the tower as well. was it equally as difficult for you "to be captive" by it? i don't know that the story was struggling so much to stay alive as the author may have been struggling in the face of such overwhelming concepts. we've seen before that sometimes the story can take him where he doesn't want to go. is it possible that this happened here?

and i don't understand what you mean by "weakness of the plot in terms of linear dynamic". could you go a little farther with that idea? also, you say "so many parts are anti-climactic because nothing could really stop the momentum of the characters" but don't you see that this is a perfect example of the story taking over the writer. it's what he was talking about with the tower. i don't see the parts as anti-climactic at all - the momentum of the characters carried the story on. they did what they were going to do, what they were inherently designed to do; whether king liked it or not.

as for the "hand of god", i actually debated that with someone else on the site not too long ago. i thought that was bound to happen given what trashy brought out of the desert. if you reread that section, randall flagg caused that to happen, not some deus ex machina. randall flagg threw that lightning bolt, firebolt, whatever it was. but it's charge never dissipated. when trashy drove up with the nuclear weapon, of course the charge was going to be drawn back down to earth toward it. it's a nuclear weapon. i would have thought it a cheat if it had not been drawn back toward the weapon. randall flagg can do a lot of things but defeat the laws of nuclear physics?


my only real problem with the entire novel was the ending part with stu and frannie at mother abigail's house. the whole "and lucy had twins can you believe it? seeing is believing." that just annoyed me to no end. it was like all of a sudden king realized the novel was over and no one was going to know what happened in boulder. but then, nothing's ever perfect, is it?


anyway, i think you have a fucking amazing mind and you might be tired of talking about the stand but i'd love to hear what you have to say about all this. sorry for babbling but i wanted to get all this down while it was fresh in my head.

[Jean]

t/song: most points you make seem to be taken directly from the bear's mind! thank you love

[obscurejude]

Turtle, I'm kind of spent for the evening, but I really appreciate you taking the time to respond to all of that (I felt they were all largely ignored in the midst of The Stand lovefest). I will respond soon. I'd do it now, but I want to do it well.

[The Lady of Shadows]

t/song: most points you make seem to be taken directly from the bear's mind! thank you love

that's cause you are the other half of my beam

Turtle, I'm kind of spent for the evening, but I really appreciate you taking the time to respond to all of that (I felt they were all largely ignored in the midst of The Stand lovefest). I will respond soon. I'd do it now, but I want to do it well.

take your time ryan. you know i will always wait for your responses. until the end of time if necessary. well, okay maybe not that long. but i'm willing to wait. especially if it means you'll actually be coherent when you reply.

[Jon]

You must read the uncut...it is the best!

And I voted that I would die but not of the tripps. I would be hit by the ambulance taking the first case to the hospital.

[Tiffany]

I've never seen this poll but I've posted my opinion on The Stand fairly recently (loved the book again, hated Frannie).

I voted that I'd be in Colorado, just because I'm so optimistic that it should almost be a form of retardation.

[Brice]

I'm going raiding pharmacies with Sarah!

[Mordred Deschain]

I'm going raiding pharmacies with Sarah!

HEH..leave me some! Hey Brice did that download work?

I have a question, not sure if it has been discussed, just feel to lazy to read all the posts, but, is the black stone with the red mark that Randall gives Lloyd which turns into the key and back to the stone, is that Black 13?

[Brice]

I'm going raiding pharmacies with Sarah!

HEH..leave me some! Hey Brice did that download work?

I have a question, not sure if it has been discussed, just feel to lazy to read all the posts, but, is the black stone with the red mark that Randall gives Lloyd which turns into the key and back to the stone, is that Black 13?

I would say no.

...and I haven't had time to yet. I should be able to try it in the next couple days.

[The Lady of Shadows]

I'm going raiding pharmacies with Sarah!

HEH..leave me some! Hey Brice did that download work?

I have a question, not sure if it has been discussed, just feel to lazy to read all the posts, but, is the black stone with the red mark that Randall gives Lloyd which turns into the key and back to the stone, is that Black 13?

i would say no as well. but i do think it's the same type of stone that's in barlowe's ring in 'salem's lot.

[ManOfWesternesse]

Agreed - there's no way that's Black13 , imho.

[Mordred Deschain]

I'm going raiding pharmacies with Sarah!

HEH..leave me some! Hey Brice did that download work?

I have a question, not sure if it has been discussed, just feel to lazy to read all the posts, but, is the black stone with the red mark that Randall gives Lloyd which turns into the key and back to the stone, is that Black 13?

i would say no as well. but i do think it's the same type of stone that's in barlowe's ring in 'salem's lot.

hmmmm...ya, maybe, sounds more right. I was just listening to the audio of the stand and when Loyd described the stone, it just made me think that King transfered the idea to the dark tower as black 13. I mean, Callahan talks about how Marten/Randal/others...etc..gave him black 13. Just seemed close to that.

[bluelph24]

just got my original stand in the mail, dunno when i'll read it but i have it now.

[Jon]

Don't cough too much when you read it!

[Brainslinger]

I'm going raiding pharmacies with Sarah!

is the black stone with the red mark that Randall gives Lloyd which turns into the key and back to the stone, is that Black 13?

I would say no.

...and I haven't had time to yet. I should be able to try it in the next couple days.

I'd agree it isn't. If I remember correctly it had an eye on it didn't it? So Flagg was bearing the sigul of the Crimson King there too... (although I'm sure Stephen King wasn't aware that was what it was at the time.)

[Bluenose]

I love The Stand - possibly my favourite King novel. It's been a few years since I read it, though. I had planned to sit outside during the July holidays last year and read it, but it pissed down all summer. I need to read it again, it and the Tower and the Talisman/Black House and a ton of other books.

Oh, going back to Childe's observations re the similarites between The Stand and The Tower (forgetting your fathers face, being sent west etc) - can we draw a parellel between challenging Flagg and challenging Cort?

Looking forward to the comics as well

[Erin]

I think I need to hurry up and do yet another re-read of The Stand soon. You're right, Bluenose, It's just the perfect book to sit outside, in a porch swing with a glass of lemonade and read. Especially during a nice, summer evening.

Oh, and Tiffany, I've never liked Frannie either.

[jhanic]

Just remember, you often come down with flu-like symptoms while reading this book!!

John