SK Time Travel: Rules, feasibility and Practical Application ***SPOILERS!!!

[Merlin1958]

OK, first off, I have always had an issue (in my mind) with the whole "Jake/Roland Paradox". So this thread is to dissect and perhaps explain the feasibility and application of TT as Stephen King defines it in the DT series.

Now, if memory serves, Jake dies in NY in 1977 after being pushed by jack Mort and immediately appears in the Way Station in Roland's world and "when". They meet, pair up and proceed through the path under the mountain where Roland, famously, lets go of Jake and he utters arguably the second greatest line in the series. "Go then, there are other worlds than these".

Roland subsequently time travels (into Jack Mort's body in 1977 NYC and prevents Mort from pushing Jake, thereby saving his life. At that point Rolands personality is split. He remembers Jake (though technically he now has never met him in the first place) alive and dead and does not become himself again until they all "draw" Jake back into Mid-World in DTIII.

The thing that sticks in my craw the most is that even if you accept the rationality of the above, WTF got Jake to the Way Station in the first place? Isn't the whole thing a little "ass-backwards"?

Now I'm hoping we do not digress into the morality typically associated with this story line, i.e. Roland letting go of Jake. That facet would be irrelevant to this discussion.

Plus, Mods? if I put this thread in the wrong place I apologize in advance for my ignorance and promise to do better in the future. Please feel free to relocate it where ever you think appropriate. Shoot!!! and I should have added spoiler tags!!!!

Thoughts anyone???

[Darkthoughts]

I'll move it to Gilead, no spoiler tags needed as you've stated "Spoilers" in the title

I've been really getting back into these discussions since I had a Mid World forum clear out last week, but I think I'm going to have to reread as alot of salient points are still in my mind, but what I can't clearly remember is the evidence I had to back them up.

[candy]

I did pretty much just accept Jake being in the Way Station, I think mostly because it was the first book and I expected everything to be explained further down the line

When I got further down the line, i was more caught up with the happenings in the book than to look back at The Gunslinger, however on subsequent reads I always felt it was the Tower that pushed jake to be in the Way Station at that time, and while I realise this is a little wishy washy for an answer - when you look at what else is 'used' for travel in the book - random doors appearing, doors in caves, Susannah being high jacked by a spirit. Then thinking that the 'most powerful thing inthe universe' gave jake a little push doesn't seem that far fetched.

However, now that you have brought this to my attention I want to go back and do a re-read to see if there are any clues i may have missed

(damned storage facility)

[pixiedark76]

IT IS THE WAY AND WILL OF KA AND YE SHALL NOT EVER QUESTION KA!

[Merlin1958]

IT IS THE WAY AND WILL OF KA AND YE SHALL NOT EVER QUESTION KA!

Boy!! You sure know how to kill a conversation!! LOL

[mystima]

The way I might interpret the happenings with Jake coming to the way station could also be the way Jack goes back and forth in The Talisman and Black House. Jake at one time could have been a potential "Breaker" and used that power to send himself there without knowing it. Seeing as these three stories intertwine with each other that could be a possible reason, but that is my opinion and not a fact....hehehe.

But if I recall, The man in black sent Jake there when he was on the verge of dying also.

[pixiedark76]

IT IS THE WAY AND WILL OF KA AND YE SHALL NOT EVER QUESTION KA!

Boy!! You sure know how to kill a conversation!! LOL

I am sorry I was so blunt. I heard Roland the Gunslingers voice in my head. Roland made me do it!

[pixiedark76]

IT IS THE WAY AND WILL OF KA AND YE SHALL NOT EVER QUESTION KA!

Boy!! You sure know how to kill a conversation!! LOL

I am sorry I was so blunt. I heard Roland the Gunslingers voice in my head. Roland made me do it!

It is even worse when he holds a gun to my head!

[pathoftheturtle]

I predict that this thread will majorly need to be bumped as soon as I finish 11/22/63!

[Canada]

I always just assumed it was Walter who "flipped" (a la Black House & Talisman) Jake, simply because evidence suggests that he did the same for the pere (the fact that he was RIGHT THERE when the pere came over, even though we didn't see him beforehand america-side like we did with Jake). They both were on the verge of dying (I don't have gunslinger atm, lent it to my father) and as I recall neither one actually fully died, Pere was almost certainly seconds from the ground, and jake had JUST been run over, but I don't think either were totally dead, so it seems feasible to me that Walter, a magician who could create his own doors (if the comics are canon, do ya) or at the very least teleport, had telepathy, could shapeshift, and make himself dim, could 'flip' someone (Parkus used a 'potion' to help Jack learn how to flip in Talisman, so it's not far fetched to assume a magician could force that same effect on a person) and then heal them.

Now, as for whether this was the tower's doing, I say it surely must have been, at least Ka's doing. Walter may have done it, but he was just another pawn of the tower (he probably knew it too). It didn't seem like the tower (or the beams, if they be the 'arms' of the tower, physically carrying out it's will) was in a position to directly step in the way of Ka, as it was most likely focusing it's attention on defending itself from the breakers, so it had Walter do it.

[pathoftheturtle]

OK, first off, I have always had an issue (in my mind) with the whole "Jake/Roland Paradox". So this thread is to dissect and perhaps explain the feasibility and application of TT as Stephen King defines it in the DT series.

Now, if memory serves, Jake dies in NY in 1977 after being pushed by jack Mort and immediately appears in the Way Station in Roland's world and "when". They meet, pair up and proceed through the path under the mountain where Roland, famously, lets go of Jake and he utters arguably the second greatest line in the series. "Go then, there are other worlds than these".

Roland subsequently time travels (into Jack Mort's body in 1977 NYC and prevents Mort from pushing Jake, thereby saving his life. At that point Rolands personality is split. He remembers Jake (though technically he now has never met him in the first place) alive and dead and does not become himself again until they all "draw" Jake back into Mid-World in DTIII.

The thing that sticks in my craw the most is that even if you accept the rationality of the above, WTF got Jake to the Way Station in the first place? Isn't the whole thing a little "ass-backwards"?

Is any of what's been said about WTF got Jake to the Way Station in the first place approaching the goal to dissect and perhaps explain the feasibility and application of time travel as SK defines it in TDT series? If not, would you clarify why you asked the former; in what sense do you mean that what got him there is relevant? Maybe you're trying to figure out what made it important for him to be there? Normally, one might think that it's only a timeline disruption if what happens next doesn't follow from what happened before, but when Roland touched his own past, he created a circle of cause and effect so that changing the cause of events would also change the cause of the change of that cause of those events. Is that what bugged you? Also, it's interesting to note that The Gunslinger is in general all backward: time, sense, and destiny.

[Merlin1958]

Truthfully? It is al written in linear form and therefore does not compute in a way. Do you see what I mean?

[pathoftheturtle]

Truthfully? It is al written in linear form and therefore does not compute in a way. Do you see what I mean?

Afraid not.

I don't think that it is all in linear form, actually, and even if it were, I don't understand how that creates a problem.

[pathoftheturtle]

Wait, are you saying that Jake being at the Way Station never happened and neither of them should remember it at all after Roland changed the past? That is a paradox: a boy can't be alive and dead at the same time. Yet the Many Americas (theory of alternate universes) makes such paradoxes possible: one version of Jake joined one version of Roland before Eddie and Susannah did, another version joined them all later. What's really wild is that if there had ever been an alternate universe in which Roland did not choose to stop Jack Mort, that world should presumably have had no living version of Jake to rejoin the ka-tet and then how could Roland have reached the Tower in that universe? Would there be any more versions of Roland if any one version of him did not reach the Tower? I don't know: not sure whether what happened to him there is the cause or just another effect of TDT multiverse. It's strange, since we see that, for whatever reason, the DT worlds are all in a multiverse anyway, that this Jake paradox should have been a problem at all, but I think that the idea that the Dark Tower orders all worlds explains it: it's only those events which happen to threaten the whole system for reasons of a sort different from simple non-linearity which are made to stand out. That's ka. Jake and Roland not remembering that Jake had ever been to Mid-World before would not necessarily have caused any future Roland to change or not change the past in any way that makes continuity impossible, but it might have caused Jake not to enter Mid-World that "second" time, and that would have made continuity impossible by allowing the Tower which maintains all worlds (in a beyond time way) to be destroyed.

[Merlin1958]

Wait, are you saying that Jake being at the Way Station never happened and neither of them should remember it at all after Roland changed the past? That is a paradox: a boy can't be alive and dead at the same time. Yet the Many Americas (theory of alternate universes) makes such paradoxes possible: one version of Jake joined one version of Roland before Eddie and Susannah did, another version joined them all later. What's really wild is that if there had ever been an alternate universe in which Roland did not choose to stop Jack Mort, that world should presumably have had no living version of Jake to rejoin the ka-tet and then how could Roland have reached the Tower in that universe? Would there be any more versions of Roland if any one version of him did not reach the Tower? I don't know: not sure whether what happened to him there is the cause or just another effect of TDT multiverse. It's strange, since we see that, for whatever reason, the DT worlds are all in a multiverse anyway, that this Jake paradox should have been a problem at all, but I think that the idea that the Dark Tower orders all worlds explains it: it's only those events which happen to threaten the whole system for reasons of a sort different from simple non-linearity which are made to stand out. That's ka. Jake and Roland not remembering that Jake had ever been to Mid-World before would not necessarily have caused any future Roland to change or not change the past in any way that makes continuity impossible, but it might have caused Jake not to enter Mid-World that "second" time, and that would have made continuity impossible by allowing the Tower which maintains all worlds (in a beyond time way) to be destroyed.

Yeah, that's pretty much what I was trying to convey. The only problem is, that I recall, is that Roland's world and Jake's 1977 (?) were "singular" in a sense and supposedly time only flowed in one direction in Jake's world, right?

Maybe I should just forget this stuff and take up book collecting!!!! LOL

[Jean]

or else maybe you should post more here

I have been reading your posts with great interest. I need a re-read before I can come back to those discussions, though, but I am beginning to feel that's what I might actually do soon.

[pathoftheturtle]

The only problem is, that I recall, is that Roland's world and Jake's 1977 (?) were "singular" in a sense and supposedly time only flowed in one direction in Jake's world, right?

Jake's world was not the Keystone world, though, was it? If Roland's world is also singular and time unidirectional there, as it is supposed to be on the Rose Keystone, then paradox does come back into it. I believe that's the case regardless of what's implied by the Jake paradox because the series ending appears to violate those rules... er, to violate those exceptions to the multiverse rules.

Maybe I should just forget this stuff and take up book collecting!!!! LOL

Yeah, just line 'em up on the shelves and don't read them!

[Merlin1958]

Obviously, I could be mistaken, but as I recall Jake's 1977 was the KEYSTONE Universe and while I acknowledge the paradox of the ending in Roland's world, what I was trying to convey is that my impression of RW was that it was singular as in somehow "Outside" the so called "Multi-verse. My interpetation of the overall story was that W/E direction mankind took in it's "moral" choice throughout the Multi-verse had a direct effect on Roland's choices in his world. Such that Roland was a barometer for Mankind in general. Did I put that right?

On another note: So me and Path may be the inspiration for a re-read, Jean? Cool!!!!! Nicfe to know this arcane discussion has some benefit!!!!

[pathoftheturtle]

I think you used the word barometer in an acceptable way, if that's what you meant by putting that right. Whether Roland really is a barometer for mankind, I do not know. Interesting theory, though.

Another question: did the board in Toren's bookstore change between the first time we saw it in DT3 and the second visit to the same moment made todash in DT5? Or was that a whole different world?

[pathoftheturtle]

It's definitely confusing, but it seems like Eddie comes from the same universe as Jake does, and in Eddie's universe, Co-op City is in Brooklyn.

[Merlin1958]

I think you used the word barometer in an acceptable way, if that's what you meant by putting that right. Whether Roland really is a barometer for mankind, I do not know. Interesting theory, though.

Another question: did the board in Toren's bookstore change between the first time we saw it in DT3 and the second visit to the same moment made todash in DT5? Or was that a whole different world?

No way I remember the answer to that one w/o a re-read. Hmmmmm, maybe the Concurrence? Possible we could look it up there?

Glad you're intrigued by my little theory. I'm rather fond of it myself. Feel free to utilize and embellish it if, the mood takes you.

Nice to know I can still contribute with new idea's and, well, theories!!!! Old farts rule!!!! LOL

[whyto]

Then thinking that the 'most powerful thing inthe universe' gave jake a little push doesn't seem that far fetched.