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Thread: King's Role in SoS

  1. #51
    Banned obscurejude is on a distinguished road

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    Quote Originally Posted by ATG View Post
    What bugged me about SOS was Mia and Susanna chatting it up on the walls of the castle.

    King being in the story was risky, but he pulled it off.
    He pulled it off for some. Apparently everybody but me.

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    Gunslinger Apprentice ATG is on a distinguished road

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    Quote Originally Posted by obscurejude View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by ATG View Post
    What bugged me about SOS was Mia and Susanna chatting it up on the walls of the castle.

    King being in the story was risky, but he pulled it off.
    He pulled it off for some. Apparently everybody but me.

    That's the way art is; some people go batshit for Clay Aiken, whilst I can hardly stand the sight of him, let alone is singing. It's not that he can't carry a tune, he's just so fruity.
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    Banned obscurejude is on a distinguished road

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    Well, we certainly agree on that note.

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    The Tenant Jean has much to be proud of Jean has much to be proud of Jean has much to be proud of Jean has much to be proud of Jean has much to be proud of Jean has much to be proud of Jean has much to be proud of Jean has much to be proud of Jean has much to be proud of Jean has much to be proud of Jean's Avatar

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    AllHail: I am sorry I can't word it quite clearly; I'll try again. Trying to cram a great piece of fiction under a category is meaningless unless you intend further to judge it by the pre-existing laws of this category, foreign and external to the book in question. You inobtrusively acquire the right to say King "shouldn't have" written himself into it, or that he "should have" staged that epic battle between Roland and Flagg so many people sorely miss; and it has to do only with laws of genres, sanctified by criticists' analysis of someone else's writing. A great novel creates its own laws and should be judged by them only, with the help of the reader's taste, intelligence, and reading experience, not something someone invented for a different case.

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    DT.Org's Official Sweetie Wuducynn will become famous soon enough Wuducynn's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jean View Post
    AllHail: I am sorry I can't word it quite clearly; I'll try again. Trying to cram a great piece of fiction under a category is meaningless unless you intend further to judge it by the pre-existing laws of this category, foreign and external to the book in question. You inobtrusively acquire the right to say King "shouldn't have" written himself into it, or that he "should have" staged that epic battle between Roland and Flagg so many people sorely miss; and it has to do only with laws of genres, sanctified by criticists' analysis of someone else's writing.

    Except you're coming from the presumption that there are certain "laws" or "rules" of the fantasy genre. To me there aren't any. Outside of most of whatever story that is being written is a fantasy. I DEFINITELY don't think you unobtrusively acquire any rights by thinking a work is fantasy.
    You can think whatever you want of course, but there are no "rights" involved.
    "It's his eyes, Roland thought. They were wide and terrible, the eyes of a dragon in human form" - Roland seeing the Crimson King for the first time.

    "When the King comes and the Tower falls, sai, all such pretty things as yours will be broken. Then there will be darkness and nothing but the howl of Discordia and the cries of the can toi" - From Song of Susannah

  6. #56
    The Tenant Jean has much to be proud of Jean has much to be proud of Jean has much to be proud of Jean has much to be proud of Jean has much to be proud of Jean has much to be proud of Jean has much to be proud of Jean has much to be proud of Jean has much to be proud of Jean has much to be proud of Jean's Avatar

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    I am only basing on my experience of arguing with other readers, on or off-line. If you look back you will see that I only started this, quite off-topical, sideline of reasoning because of what obscurejude said quoting Tolkien, namely, that "for fantasy to be successful it must remain distinct from the actual world".

    ::/end off-topicality::

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    damned and saved Letti will become famous soon enough Letti's Avatar

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    For my part I think King created something absolutely new with this series. A new type. We can't put it into words or more exactly I can't. Maybe in 100 years when there are other writers who mix so many things (types) in one book or series there will be a new word for it.
    Because right now I can't put it into a box.

    Roland would have understood.

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    DT.Org's Official Sweetie Wuducynn will become famous soon enough Wuducynn's Avatar

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    Anyway, one of my favorite parts of SOS is when Roland mesmerizes King and the indepth information we get from that session. I think his relationship to the whole series as "kas-ka Gan" is fascinating.

    Oh and Jean, we've known each other long enough you can call me Matthew.
    "It's his eyes, Roland thought. They were wide and terrible, the eyes of a dragon in human form" - Roland seeing the Crimson King for the first time.

    "When the King comes and the Tower falls, sai, all such pretty things as yours will be broken. Then there will be darkness and nothing but the howl of Discordia and the cries of the can toi" - From Song of Susannah

  9. #59
    damned and saved Letti will become famous soon enough Letti's Avatar

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    (May I call you Matthew, too?)

    My favourite parts are when King believes and doesn't believe his own eyes at the same time. The way his sane mind fights with him.

    Roland would have understood.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Letti View Post
    (May I call you Matthew, too?)

    My favourite parts are when King believes and doesn't believe his own eyes at the same time. The way his sane mind fights with him.
    Letti, you've always have haven't you? I love the moment too..he starts packing away the beers
    "It's his eyes, Roland thought. They were wide and terrible, the eyes of a dragon in human form" - Roland seeing the Crimson King for the first time.

    "When the King comes and the Tower falls, sai, all such pretty things as yours will be broken. Then there will be darkness and nothing but the howl of Discordia and the cries of the can toi" - From Song of Susannah

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    M.I.A. Unfound One is on a distinguished road Unfound One's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by All_Hail_The_Crimson_King View Post
    Anyway, one of my favorite parts of SOS is when Roland mesmerizes King and the indepth information we get from that session. I think his relationship to the whole series as "kas-ka Gan" is fascinating.
    I know this thread's a bit of a blast from the past,
    but I just have to say...
    I'm re-reading right now and I just finished this scene.
    I forgot how much I love this part.
    It gives me chills.

    That's all.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Unfound One View Post

    I know this thread's a bit of a blast from the past,
    but I just have to say...
    I'm re-reading right now and I just finished this scene.
    I forgot how much I love this part.
    It gives me chills.

    That's all.

    Abso-fucking-lutely! In fact I loved that scene so much that I started a thread to discuss it. See you over there if you'd like to expound on your ideas, which you should.
    "It's his eyes, Roland thought. They were wide and terrible, the eyes of a dragon in human form" - Roland seeing the Crimson King for the first time.

    "When the King comes and the Tower falls, sai, all such pretty things as yours will be broken. Then there will be darkness and nothing but the howl of Discordia and the cries of the can toi" - From Song of Susannah

  13. #63
    Traveler The Journeyman is on a distinguished road

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    Default Am I the only one who cringed **SPOILERS**

    Am I the only one that cringed with Stephen King wrote himself into the story?


    I suspect this, or similar questions, have been asked on this board before (a lot, probably), so apologies in advance.

    Really, though, it just seemed so bloody...awful. It really made me cringe. Egotism, no matter how he intended it, was how it came across to me. A cheap, bitter plug at his car accident. I think it was a good concept...I just hated it.

    What did you think?



    EDIT:

    edited title by maerlyn
    Last edited by sarah; 04-22-2008 at 08:39 PM. Reason: spoilers in the title

  14. #64
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    I was a bit nervous about it at first but I ended up being really happy with how it was done.

    I know other authors have written themselves in but personally I've never read a book that way. I thought it ended up being pretty cool.



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    Traveler The Journeyman is on a distinguished road

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    I liked how the crash played out, I suppose, but I really could have done without him. He could have had any old character as the writer, really. For me his presence is the only real blotch on the whole series.

    Sorry about the title, by the way.

  16. #66
    Banned obscurejude is on a distinguished road

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    Quote Originally Posted by obscurejude View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by All_Hail_The_Crimson_King View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by obscurejude View Post
    I agree with Bev and Matt in principle, but I found it very jarring within the actual narrative when King appeared. I'm still not sure exactly how I feel about. Eddie even makes the comment that Roland could pass for King's older brother and I must say that I had a hard time visualizing that in my head (not saying anything negative about Stephen King's true physical appearance). Also, I've noticed a few comments about King only being a conduit and not Gan himself. There is a lot of buildup before Eddie and Roland actually see King and they are convinced they are about to see their creator. Because of the buildup, I think there might be some ambiguity about the whole subject. You might see what I mean if you read the passage. I'm not sure exactly how to say it. King may not be Gan, but he's seems damn close in the passages leading up to the actual encounter.
    How many times have you read Song of Susannah? Why I'm wondering is because I've heard from folk who didn't like it at first or found it " very jarring" like you put it, got to understand and even like it the next time they read Song of Susannah.
    CK. I've read the first four about four times apiece. I attempted to read the final three during my semester break. It's interesting that this thread appeared when it did. I actually read the scene with King in SoS this morning and asked my room mate about his response. This is the second time I've read SoS although I've already read DT twice and plan to read it a third within the next few weeks. I still find King jarring. I knew it was coming. It was foreshadowed in WofC, but I was still taken aback. Again, I understand the principle, am fond of it even, but still find it hard to digest in regards to the actual narrative. Maybe some of you have read "On Faire Stories" by Tolkien. It was an essay he wrote about fantasy as a genre. One of the points I remember is that for fantasy to be successful it must remain distinct from the actual world. LotR was conceptualized by Tolkien twenty years before the volumes were published in the fifties. He began with a language (always the linguist) and then let the genealogies and stories unfold from there. I could talk about this for hours, but suffice it to say, that King's appearance made it hard to for me to exist within the narrative imaginatively. The Gunslinger (as well as Eddie) began to lose their otherworldliness when presented next to a writer that exists in reality. Ironically, reality can make the fantasy even less real.
    I have expressed similar sentiments Journeyman, welcome to the site.
    Last edited by sarah; 04-23-2008 at 12:16 PM. Reason: edited by maerlyn

  17. #67
    damned and saved Letti will become famous soon enough Letti's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by maerlyn View Post
    I was a bit nervous about it at first but I ended up being really happy with how it was done.

    I know other authors have written themselves in but personally I've never read a book that way. I thought it ended up being pretty cool.
    Same here. When I knew he would be in the book I was really sad and I couldn't imagine that my mind would be able to accept it.
    But step by step it seemed more okay (but I needed a great deal of pages to feel this way).

    Roland would have understood.

  18. #68
    Banned obscurejude is on a distinguished road

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    I still don't like his presence in the book for the aforementioned reasons, but now I have a new one: why does Gan need a ves ka gan? CK, Monte, and I are wrestling with this and it seems to me that King's presence is what brings this tension within the text to the surface. Sometimes I can't help but think his role in SOS is self aggrandizing.

    I still love Steven King and the Dark Tower series, or I wouldn't be here. Please don't hate me. I feel this way, in part, because I'm just frustrated.

  19. #69
    damned and saved Letti will become famous soon enough Letti's Avatar

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    *hugs Jude*
    When I heard King would be in the book my first thought was: "Aha, so he wants to meet Roland in person" - but I didn't think it's self aggrandizing. And his character wasn't positive at all moreover..

    Roland would have understood.

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    M.I.A. Unfound One is on a distinguished road Unfound One's Avatar

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    I had no idea he was writing himself into the novels until I began to read those parts.
    Like Letti and Maerlyn, I wasn't sure at first, but I think it really ended up good and even adding to the story.
    I liked King as a character, and I think I'd like him as a person, assuming he wrote himself somewhat realistically.
    Especially any time he's in a trance - I think he really showed his true colors then.
    *edit* Even though his true self isn't so great - like Letti said, I didn't think it was self aggrandizing.


  21. #71
    Banned obscurejude is on a distinguished road

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    As Marcion did with the Old Testament during the pre-Nicene period, I have opted to take Song of Susannah out of my personal Dark Tower cannon. I will no longer refer to it, because it doesn't exist.

  22. #72
    Banned obscurejude is on a distinguished road

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    What is this thread about? What does SOS stand for?

  23. #73
    M.I.A. Unfound One is on a distinguished road Unfound One's Avatar

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    Does that mean you won't participate in any more talks about the need (or not) for a Ves'-ka?
    I really think we need a thread for that...


  24. #74
    damned and saved Letti will become famous soon enough Letti's Avatar

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    Are you serious? *blinks*

    Roland would have understood.

  25. #75
    Banned obscurejude is on a distinguished road

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    Quote Originally Posted by Unfound One View Post
    Does that mean you won't participate in any more talks about the need (or not) for a Ves'-ka?
    I really think we need a thread for that...
    What is a Ves Ka?

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