You know how to make a guy feel good Matthew.
Yes
No
You know how to make a guy feel good Matthew.
The kindness of close friends is like a warm blanket
"It's his eyes, Roland thought. They were wide and terrible, the eyes of a dragon in human form" - Roland seeing the Crimson King for the first time.
"When the King comes and the Tower falls, sai, all such pretty things as yours will be broken. Then there will be darkness and nothing but the howl of Discordia and the cries of the can toi" - From Song of Susannah
Well, that's an interesting question. We're talking about a governments response to war and what I would personally do.
I know we nuked children at the end of World War Two and I'm not going to say we didn't have to.
I am just saying that I'm not sure that saving Jake would have ended the quest to save the tower. Or that the tower is anything more than Rolands own personal hell.
Like...save Jake and the tower is no longer falling kind of thing. Because the tower is about Roland.
I guess that's pretty much what Matthew said but longer.
The kindness of close friends is like a warm blanket
Thats a good point, the tower is really just Rolands Journeys, and as long as the conflicts remain inside of him, tearing him down, the tower will continue to fall
IMHO seeing through a sworn oath....as it relates to this particular topic.
OK - and slap me if I missed it - but just what's the oath he's sworn?
To reach the Tower? We discover in W&G that he was diverted from all else by "the grapefruit" - which showed him the Tower and (perhaps) his responsibilty to it. He implies and hints at many things that happened during that "Long Road Home" and Robin may reveal some of that to us soon; but was his pursuit of "the man in black" one of those things? Was "sacrifice" one of those things?
I think that maybe the chase; and the sacrifice of whatever he began to love in the "pursuit" of his revelation just became habits. He must chase because that is what he does - he must sacrifice - because (since Susan) that is what is demanded of him.
Just like that classic line from The Outlaw Josie Wales: "Everytime I get to likeing someone, they ain't around very long." - To which the wise indian chief replied: "I notice that when you get to disliking someone - they ain't around very long either."
At this point in the story - his life has been destroyed. His world has "moved on" - he chases - he sacrifrices. He niether likes or dislikes anyone. He kills anything and everything that gets in his way. Until the Way Station.
It's at that point that things change - every time.
*SLAP*
He says "I am sworn by my father's guns, and by the the treachery of Marten" during the prophecy of the oracle, which is also where he is told of his choice to save Jake, or to allow him to die.
Some, gunslnger, live on blood. Even, I understand, the blood of young boys.
May he not be spared?
Yes.
How?
Cease, gunslinger......
I'm sworn by my fathers guns.....
While he is speaking with the man in black, nearing the end of the long dark night, he says, "Understand what? My Purpose? You know that. To find the Tower is my purpose. I'm sworn."
Also during his palaver with the man in black he learns that to continue on his mission he must"Start wwest. Go to the sea...." This, as I've stated before, is also where he learns of his ability to draw, and of the Prisoner, and The Lady of the Shadows, and of his unique mind.
He MUST catch the man in black, in order to continue his quest for the tower. In order to do so, he must sacrifice Jake. It's really not a matter of habit, it's completely a matter of choice, and his internal struggle over this is repeatedly brought to light during The Gunslinger.
I think it comes down to Roland's impatience as to why so many fell along the way. In The Gunslinger, you learn that this IS his quest and he'll do what it takes to reach his Tower. Yes, he could have saved Jake and (as earlier noted) taken the time to find another way over/under the mountains, but he didn't have that in his sights. He was always looking forward! Never back.
BTW, I think this thread, omong other things, contains many spoilers from the 6 books that follow. I don't want to be a spoiler police, but considering that we're discussing "ultimate" outcomes and differences, maybe this would be better served in the DTVII area.
Just my opinion.
I disagree. To me it's pretty clear in The Gunslinger that Roland didn't just sacrifice Jake because he didn't pause to refelct on his options. On the contrary, he agonized over the decision, but knew that he had exactly two choices, the boy or the Tower. Whether he consciously knew it or not, Walter was his path to the Tower. Had he not caught up with him then, he very well could have wandered until he died. It's very easy to suggest he could find "another way" past the mountains, but would he have still been allowed to draw his three without the sacrifice of Jake? Likely not.
Do you believe Gan and the other gods of the White want Roland to win in his quest? Seems like there is an awful lot of evidence that they are willing to do what needs to be done to make sure he does, because of the stakes involved. It seems that if he didn't let Jake drop they would have helped Roland do what he needs to do.
"It's his eyes, Roland thought. They were wide and terrible, the eyes of a dragon in human form" - Roland seeing the Crimson King for the first time.
"When the King comes and the Tower falls, sai, all such pretty things as yours will be broken. Then there will be darkness and nothing but the howl of Discordia and the cries of the can toi" - From Song of Susannah
It's a good question Matt, though I'm not sure my answer. For starters, I don't know how much I believe that there are other gods of the White. I believe there is a Gan [at least in as much as it being the overarching creative force of the world], but not so sure there are actual beings either watching or playing some role in how things turn out. If there were, sure, I believe they'd want to help Roland if they could [however, the metaphysics and "rules" of that would work is beyond me].
Well I'm going by the series and the comics (which because of King's involvement in it I consider canon) which mentions multiple deities, but whatever you like Gan or the whole bunch, someone is trying to help Roland and his ka-tet to win through to the Tower, along with Los' and his various followers trying to keep him from doing so.
It seems to me if he had decided not to let Jake drop then they, it, whomever would have helped Roland find the way and draw who he needs to draw.
"It's his eyes, Roland thought. They were wide and terrible, the eyes of a dragon in human form" - Roland seeing the Crimson King for the first time.
"When the King comes and the Tower falls, sai, all such pretty things as yours will be broken. Then there will be darkness and nothing but the howl of Discordia and the cries of the can toi" - From Song of Susannah
Certainly possible. I do agree that there is certainly something trying to make sure Roland reaches the Tower, and that something puts things/people in his path that help him achieve this goal. So, yes, I suppose now that I have thought it out, I do think he could have made it to the Tower had he not dropped Jake, but that the path may have been VERY different.
Good question Matt.
And for the record, I also consider the comics part of the canon.
*Puts it on record*
"It's his eyes, Roland thought. They were wide and terrible, the eyes of a dragon in human form" - Roland seeing the Crimson King for the first time.
"When the King comes and the Tower falls, sai, all such pretty things as yours will be broken. Then there will be darkness and nothing but the howl of Discordia and the cries of the can toi" - From Song of Susannah
Roland may have agonized over the decision between Jake and the Tower, but his choice to press on as opposed to go back was born of impatience, and maybe more importantly, self preservation.
DTVII (Series Ending) Spoiler:
Spoiler:
I think the comic series does a LOT to fill in historical details, etc. I consider them reliable.
"It's his eyes, Roland thought. They were wide and terrible, the eyes of a dragon in human form" - Roland seeing the Crimson King for the first time.
"When the King comes and the Tower falls, sai, all such pretty things as yours will be broken. Then there will be darkness and nothing but the howl of Discordia and the cries of the can toi" - From Song of Susannah
thanks, Crimson! My question is...is THIS a spoiler thread for the whole series or just the first book? In other words, if I have read The Gunslinger, but no others, can I safely come here to discuss?
Sincerely,
The Bitch
As I ponder all of this, I think that most of Roland's selfish decisions are based on self preservation, more than anything else. Going back for Jake would have threatened his own existance. Why chance that for a boy? Even one he loved.
I see what you're saying...but how much worrying should everyone have to do about it? Really, if you're going on to a Dark Tower fan message board like this and haven't read The Gunslinger and don't want to be spoiled, you shouldn't be clicking this forum.
"It's his eyes, Roland thought. They were wide and terrible, the eyes of a dragon in human form" - Roland seeing the Crimson King for the first time.
"When the King comes and the Tower falls, sai, all such pretty things as yours will be broken. Then there will be darkness and nothing but the howl of Discordia and the cries of the can toi" - From Song of Susannah