View Poll Results: Knowing what Roland knew, would you have dropped Jake

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Thread: Roland's choice *HARD spoilers*

  1. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jean View Post
    I wouldn't say "Jews and Christians" as if it was the same, because the revolutionary role of New Testament isn't anything to spit on but you're right, let's bury this topic till we restart it in Religious Discussion thread (if we ever do, that is)
    I only said Jews and Christians because in certain instances the New Testament is equally as bloody as the old. But yes, this is getting ot

  2. #52
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    Lisa, it's not blood we're talking about, it's what terms correctly apply to what in history of human thought and scholarly tradition. Everything in human history is bloody. ::shuts up::

    Ask not what bears can do for you, but what you can do for bears. (razz)
    When one is in agreement with bears one is always correct. (mae)

    bears are back!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

  3. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jean View Post
    Everything in human history is bloody. ::shuts up::
    Agreed. Although I wish you weren't shutting up, because I didn't understand the rest of what you were saying exactly

  4. #54
    The Tenant Jean has much to be proud of Jean has much to be proud of Jean has much to be proud of Jean has much to be proud of Jean has much to be proud of Jean has much to be proud of Jean has much to be proud of Jean has much to be proud of Jean has much to be proud of Jean has much to be proud of Jean's Avatar

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    I'm sorry if I am not very clear... I'm half asleep, and half going to work... should be hibernating, and can't... anyway, I wouldn't like this thread to go too far off topic, and something telling me we'll have plenty opportunity to get back to what we've touched upon. Plenty. [oh how I need a winking bearsmiley!!!]

    Ask not what bears can do for you, but what you can do for bears. (razz)
    When one is in agreement with bears one is always correct. (mae)

    bears are back!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

  5. #55
    Citizen of Gilead TerribleT is on a distinguished road TerribleT's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by phenol View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by TerribleT View Post
    Ok, but if he doesn't sacrifice Jake, he never gets to the tower, and the world comes apart, because the breakers are already breaking down the beam. He has to catch the man in black in order to gain the information about the drawing. Without that he never gets Eddie, Susannah, or avenges Odetta/Detta. So he has to sacrifice Jake.
    Ahh spoilers *hides*

    LOL, just kidding. I don't mind too much.

    That's the POINT though. Roland has to *accept* that he might have to damn the tower to do what's right if he ever wants to escape the loop. For him to see the tower, he has to happen upon it, not quest for it so hard that he hurts so many fellow people along the way.
    Ok, but how are we to judge what is right? Is it better to sacrifice the world for the sake of one individual? Not only the world in which Jake and Roland exist, but ALL worlds. The tower is Roland's purpose, and it's basically his only purpose. Walters says so.

    "Your mind. Your slow plodding, tenacious mind. There has never been one like it, in all the history of the world. Perhaps in the history of creation."

    So which is the greater moral injustice, to allow the loss of Jake, or to allow the loss of all worlds.

  6. #56
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    There are no greater moral injustices. Moral injustice is moral injustice...all the same.
    The Awesomest fled across the desert and The Awesomer followed.

    If you rescue me
    I値l be your friend forever


    I wish that I could write fiction, but that seems almost an impossibility. -howard phillips lovecraft (1915)



  7. #57
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    If the horrid Gan wanted his knight to reach the Dark Tower he would have found a way for him to do it another way. The sacrifice of Jake is not a requirement to reach the Tower but a hurdle Roland is given to express his humanity by Gan.
    He failed in this loop by letting him drop.
    "It's his eyes, Roland thought. They were wide and terrible, the eyes of a dragon in human form" - Roland seeing the Crimson King for the first time.

    "When the King comes and the Tower falls, sai, all such pretty things as yours will be broken. Then there will be darkness and nothing but the howl of Discordia and the cries of the can toi" - From Song of Susannah

  8. #58
    Citizen of Gilead TerribleT is on a distinguished road TerribleT's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by All_Hail_The_Crimson_King View Post
    If the horrid Gan wanted his knight to reach the Dark Tower he would have found a way for him to do it another way. The sacrifice of Jake is not a requirement to reach the Tower but a hurdle Roland is given to express his humanity by Gan.
    He failed in this loop by letting him drop.
    That's an assumption on your part, I, and Roland are dealing with the facts as we are aware of them....

    1. There is a problem with the Tower and it needs to be saved.
    2. In order to get to the Tower, Roland must get answers from the Man in Black.
    3. If he attempts to save Jake, he will lose the Man in Black, and therefore not be able to save the Tower.

    Let's go back to the moment of choice, when Roland chooses to let Jake go. Instead of jumping over Jake and grabbing the rock, now Roland reaches down and grabs Jake, the other side of the trestle collapses, and Jake and Roland are forced to turn around. The Man in Black is gone. Jake and Roland must face the slow mutants again, and IF they survive that encounter, then he must still find a way over, or around, the mountains. It's too late to save Eddie. (if Balazar doesn't get him the coke will). Too late to save Susannah/Detta/Odetta, and now what happens with Jack Mort. The idea that Roland has a choice of saving Jake or not saving Jake is a very pretty, and very idealistic, if not somewhat childish, notion. Roland has no choice but to drop Jake. I think he gains salvation in the fact that he saves Jake twice later in the Story. He also saves Eddie, Susannah, and kills Jack Mort, AND saves ALL worlds. Kills the Wolves, and on, and on, and on.

  9. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by TerribleT View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by All_Hail_The_Crimson_King View Post
    If the horrid Gan wanted his knight to reach the Dark Tower he would have found a way for him to do it another way. The sacrifice of Jake is not a requirement to reach the Tower but a hurdle Roland is given to express his humanity by Gan.
    He failed in this loop by letting him drop.
    That's an assumption on your part, I, and Roland are dealing with the facts as we are aware of them....

    1. There is a problem with the Tower and it needs to be saved.
    2. In order to get to the Tower, Roland must get answers from the Man in Black.
    3. If he attempts to save Jake, he will lose the Man in Black, and therefore not be able to save the Tower.

    Let's go back to the moment of choice, when Roland chooses to let Jake go. Instead of jumping over Jake and grabbing the rock, now Roland reaches down and grabs Jake, the other side of the trestle collapses, and Jake and Roland are forced to turn around. The Man in Black is gone. Jake and Roland must face the slow mutants again, and IF they survive that encounter, then he must still find a way over, or around, the mountains. It's too late to save Eddie. (if Balazar doesn't get him the coke will). Too late to save Susannah/Detta/Odetta, and now what happens with Jack Mort. The idea that Roland has a choice of saving Jake or not saving Jake is a very pretty, and very idealistic, if not somewhat childish, notion. Roland has no choice but to drop Jake. I think he gains salvation in the fact that he saves Jake twice later in the Story. He also saves Eddie, Susannah, and kills Jack Mort, AND saves ALL worlds. Kills the Wolves, and on, and on, and on.
    Perhaps Jake's sacrifice is only one way to the tower and also not the best way. There is also no reason to think that if Jake and Roland had to find some other way across the mountains he wouldn't have been able to save Eddie. Time is different in Roland's world. Years there could be just moment's in Eddie's or Detta/Odetta's or any of the other worlds. We really can't know if he saved Jake that all these other things would have happened.
    The Awesomest fled across the desert and The Awesomer followed.

    If you rescue me
    I値l be your friend forever


    I wish that I could write fiction, but that seems almost an impossibility. -howard phillips lovecraft (1915)



  10. #60
    Citizen of Gilead TerribleT is on a distinguished road TerribleT's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by Brice View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by TerribleT View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by All_Hail_The_Crimson_King View Post
    If the horrid Gan wanted his knight to reach the Dark Tower he would have found a way for him to do it another way. The sacrifice of Jake is not a requirement to reach the Tower but a hurdle Roland is given to express his humanity by Gan.
    He failed in this loop by letting him drop.
    That's an assumption on your part, I, and Roland are dealing with the facts as we are aware of them....

    1. There is a problem with the Tower and it needs to be saved.
    2. In order to get to the Tower, Roland must get answers from the Man in Black.
    3. If he attempts to save Jake, he will lose the Man in Black, and therefore not be able to save the Tower.

    Let's go back to the moment of choice, when Roland chooses to let Jake go. Instead of jumping over Jake and grabbing the rock, now Roland reaches down and grabs Jake, the other side of the trestle collapses, and Jake and Roland are forced to turn around. The Man in Black is gone. Jake and Roland must face the slow mutants again, and IF they survive that encounter, then he must still find a way over, or around, the mountains. It's too late to save Eddie. (if Balazar doesn't get him the coke will). Too late to save Susannah/Detta/Odetta, and now what happens with Jack Mort. The idea that Roland has a choice of saving Jake or not saving Jake is a very pretty, and very idealistic, if not somewhat childish, notion. Roland has no choice but to drop Jake. I think he gains salvation in the fact that he saves Jake twice later in the Story. He also saves Eddie, Susannah, and kills Jack Mort, AND saves ALL worlds. Kills the Wolves, and on, and on, and on.
    Perhaps Jake's sacrifice is only one way to the tower and also not the best way. There is also no reason to think that if Jake and Roland had to find some other way across the mountains he wouldn't have been able to save Eddie. Time is different in Roland's world. Years there could be just moment's in Eddie's or Detta/Odetta's or any of the other worlds. We really can't know if he saved Jake that all these other things would have happened.

    Again, an assumption on your part. I'm speaking of only what has been put forth in the book.

  11. #61
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    Listen Terrible, every time someone is going to post possibilities of things going differently than they did in the book are you going to post "assumption"?
    The idea here is that Roland may not have to make the same choice to let Jake drop to reach the Tower. The whole thread and most "possibility" threads are supposition and aren't only going to go with what happened in the book but what could have happened.
    "It's his eyes, Roland thought. They were wide and terrible, the eyes of a dragon in human form" - Roland seeing the Crimson King for the first time.

    "When the King comes and the Tower falls, sai, all such pretty things as yours will be broken. Then there will be darkness and nothing but the howl of Discordia and the cries of the can toi" - From Song of Susannah

  12. #62
    Citizen of Gilead TerribleT is on a distinguished road TerribleT's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by All_Hail_The_Crimson_King View Post
    Listen Terrible, every time someone is going to post possibilities of things going differently than they did in the book are you going to post "assumption"?
    The idea here is that Roland may not have to make the same choice to let Jake drop to reach the Tower. The whole thread and most "possibility" threads are supposition and aren't only going to go with what happened in the book but what could have happened.
    My apologies, I will refrain from commenting again here.

  13. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by TerribleT View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by All_Hail_The_Crimson_King View Post
    Listen Terrible, every time someone is going to post possibilities of things going differently than they did in the book are you going to post "assumption"?
    The idea here is that Roland may not have to make the same choice to let Jake drop to reach the Tower. The whole thread and most "possibility" threads are supposition and aren't only going to go with what happened in the book but what could have happened.
    My apologies, I will refrain from commenting again here.
    No don't do that. It is just we tend to speculate a bit on possibilities. I mean we realize that they are assumptions, but that is the point. That is often the intent of some of these threads.
    The Awesomest fled across the desert and The Awesomer followed.

    If you rescue me
    I値l be your friend forever


    I wish that I could write fiction, but that seems almost an impossibility. -howard phillips lovecraft (1915)



  14. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brice View Post
    Perhaps Jake's sacrifice is only one way to the tower and also not the best way. There is also no reason to think that if Jake and Roland had to find some other way across the mountains he wouldn't have been able to save Eddie. Time is different in Roland's world. Years there could be just moment's in Eddie's or Detta/Odetta's or any of the other worlds. We really can't know if he saved Jake that all these other things would have happened.
    Good questions, also it seems that the choice of letting Jake fall in favor of the hope of reaching the Dark Tower was one of Roland's biggest stumbling blocks in actually reaching the top of the Dark Tower.
    "It's his eyes, Roland thought. They were wide and terrible, the eyes of a dragon in human form" - Roland seeing the Crimson King for the first time.

    "When the King comes and the Tower falls, sai, all such pretty things as yours will be broken. Then there will be darkness and nothing but the howl of Discordia and the cries of the can toi" - From Song of Susannah

  15. #65
    Roont Brice has much to be proud of Brice has much to be proud of Brice has much to be proud of Brice has much to be proud of Brice has much to be proud of Brice has much to be proud of Brice has much to be proud of Brice has much to be proud of Brice's Avatar

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    I see it almost like a RPG where Roland not only has to make a choice (i.e. :Whether to save Jake or not) right, but he must make every choice right in order to get the "best ending". I think one of those was that he should have saved Jake to save the tower.
    The Awesomest fled across the desert and The Awesomer followed.

    If you rescue me
    I値l be your friend forever


    I wish that I could write fiction, but that seems almost an impossibility. -howard phillips lovecraft (1915)



  16. #66
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    Like the "Choose your Own Adventure" book series that was popular when we were kids. I wonder if its a process of re-finding his heart and soul that is true key to the top of the Dark Tower.
    It sure seems like it, because he has progressed at the end and cared more about saving Jake than reaching the Dark Tower and now something that used to be left behind in the battlefield is with him on the quest.
    Then theres always the hope that he falls in the chasm WITH Jake..but thats for another thread...
    "It's his eyes, Roland thought. They were wide and terrible, the eyes of a dragon in human form" - Roland seeing the Crimson King for the first time.

    "When the King comes and the Tower falls, sai, all such pretty things as yours will be broken. Then there will be darkness and nothing but the howl of Discordia and the cries of the can toi" - From Song of Susannah

  17. #67
    Roont Matt will become famous soon enough Matt's Avatar

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    Folks can post whatever they like in the thread. If Terrible wants to point out things are assumptions, that's cool.

    If Matthew wants to assume a bunch of shit, thats cool too.

    No reason for anyone to be stifled in a thread like this.
    The kindness of close friends is like a warm blanket

  18. #68
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    Hey, diplo-Matt, what do you think about Roland's choice to let Jake drop?
    "It's his eyes, Roland thought. They were wide and terrible, the eyes of a dragon in human form" - Roland seeing the Crimson King for the first time.

    "When the King comes and the Tower falls, sai, all such pretty things as yours will be broken. Then there will be darkness and nothing but the howl of Discordia and the cries of the can toi" - From Song of Susannah

  19. #69
    Citizen of Gilead TerribleT is on a distinguished road TerribleT's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by Brice View Post

    No don't do that. It is just we tend to speculate a bit on possibilities. I mean we realize that they are assumptions, but that is the point. That is often the intent of some of these threads.
    Thanks, but I probably shouldn't have been commenting in here to begin with. I reject the basic premise of the discussion. I don't think, given what Roland knew at the time, he had any choice.

  20. #70
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    But TT, I would argue that what we are told in the book is not that Roland wanted to save all the worlds. Once the beams were made safe there was no reason for him to continue to the Tower. But he did, because all he wanted was to stand before the Tower. Either Eddie or Suze actually points this out and Roland agrees.

    I've got to go out in a minute, but I'll find a quote to back this up tomorrow

  21. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by TerribleT View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Brice View Post

    No don't do that. It is just we tend to speculate a bit on possibilities. I mean we realize that they are assumptions, but that is the point. That is often the intent of some of these threads.
    Thanks, but I probably shouldn't have been commenting in here to begin with. I reject the basic premise of the discussion. I don't think, given what Roland knew at the time, he had any choice.
    Well, I see your point and I agree to an extent that with his knowledge at the time he made the only choice he could or at least the only one he believed he could make.

    As Matt said though, anyone is welcome to post here pretty much anything they like and we're always interested in different perspectives. I truly hope you're enjoying the site.
    The Awesomest fled across the desert and The Awesomer followed.

    If you rescue me
    I値l be your friend forever


    I wish that I could write fiction, but that seems almost an impossibility. -howard phillips lovecraft (1915)



  22. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by TerribleT View Post
    I reject the basic premise of the discussion. I don't think, given what Roland knew at the time, he had any choice.
    Do you think that Roland has no choices to do things different with each loop then?
    "It's his eyes, Roland thought. They were wide and terrible, the eyes of a dragon in human form" - Roland seeing the Crimson King for the first time.

    "When the King comes and the Tower falls, sai, all such pretty things as yours will be broken. Then there will be darkness and nothing but the howl of Discordia and the cries of the can toi" - From Song of Susannah

  23. #73
    Roont Matt will become famous soon enough Matt's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by All_Hail_The_Crimson_King View Post
    Hey, diplo-Matt, what do you think about Roland's choice to let Jake drop?
    I've made that pretty clear already. I believe that not letting Jake drop is part of Rolands salvation.

    Its a lesson in whats important in life. Sure, the universe hangs in the balance but a person cannot allow that as an excuse to become a monster.

    The end should not justify the means.
    The kindness of close friends is like a warm blanket

  24. #74
    Citizen of Gilead TerribleT is on a distinguished road TerribleT's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by All_Hail_The_Crimson_King View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by TerribleT View Post
    I reject the basic premise of the discussion. I don't think, given what Roland knew at the time, he had any choice.
    Do you think that Roland has no choices to do things different with each loop then?
    I don't think Roland is cognizant of any previous iterations. So while he might do things different in each, it would only be by accident. One thing that has occurred to me during this conversation is the notion of "ka like a wheel". Either way, I think at this point in the story, given the knowledge he has, he's always going to make the same choice. That knowledge being that there's a problem with the tower, and if he doesn't go there to fix it, all worlds will collapse, and crumble. It becomes a choice between the life of one innocent child, and all innocent children. Which really is the age old "life boat" debate.

  25. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by Matt View Post
    I've made that pretty clear already.
    Yeah, you did, but since I wasn't really paying attention to your posts I figured you should explain it again.
    "It's his eyes, Roland thought. They were wide and terrible, the eyes of a dragon in human form" - Roland seeing the Crimson King for the first time.

    "When the King comes and the Tower falls, sai, all such pretty things as yours will be broken. Then there will be darkness and nothing but the howl of Discordia and the cries of the can toi" - From Song of Susannah

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