View Poll Results: Knowing what Roland knew, would you have dropped Jake

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Thread: Roland's choice *HARD spoilers*

  1. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by not-man View Post
    I agree that Roland won't drop him. Not that it will break the cycle.

    If he doesn't drop him under the mountains, and Jake is with them at the doors, isn't he dropping Jake again by killing Mort? Granted he does it to save Susannah. But he has to sacrifice one of them at that door. If he saves Jake there by letting Mort live, he dooms Susannah. Oh yeah, and kills Jake.......

    Wow this is making my head hurt
    Nope, you've lost me

  2. #27
    Guardian of the Beam Storyslinger will become famous soon enough Storyslinger will become famous soon enough Storyslinger's Avatar

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    By letting Mort live, only Jake will be affected. He pushed Susannah before ever seeing Jake. If he kills Mort, then Jake will never have come to Mid-World, so he'd have to go through the process of drawing him anyways

  3. #28
    Traveler Sinistar is on a distinguished road Sinistar's Avatar

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    I would have to say that if Roland chose Jake, there wouldn't be much of a story period because it would take away from the fact that Roland obsesses over finding the Tower. Although he subsequently finds his ka-tet, people that he loves, he lives in the past as we have seen. His main goal is avenging the fall of Gilead in some way, thus avenging the loss of a world that was "full of light and love".
    "What have I become? My sweetest friend...everyone I know goes away in the end...and you can have it all...my empire of dirt...I will let you down...I will make you hurt..." --Trent Reznor

  4. #29
    Guardian of the Beam Storyslinger will become famous soon enough Storyslinger will become famous soon enough Storyslinger's Avatar

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    I see you point, and it seems very likely that that is why he quests on

  5. #30
    Roont Matt will become famous soon enough Matt's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sinistar View Post
    I would have to say that if Roland chose Jake, there wouldn't be much of a story period because it would take away from the fact that Roland obsesses over finding the Tower. Although he subsequently finds his ka-tet, people that he loves, he lives in the past as we have seen. His main goal is avenging the fall of Gilead in some way, thus avenging the loss of a world that was "full of light and love".
    Interesting observation--kind of a revenge motivation that I had not thought of.

    Works well.
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  6. #31
    Traveler phenol is on a distinguished road

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    I think Roland's choice to let Jake fall, and his mass murder earlier in the book, show some of his character flaws quite glaringly.

    It was so terribly sad when he let Jake fall - I cried so much over it. I've already had the ending spoiled for me, and I have to say I agree that he won't escape the loop without choosing Jake. It would show a more caring, emotional character - perhaps redeeming him. I think the Tower dislikes being obsessed over if you will. It wouldn't mind Roland reaching it, but for Roland to do something like let Jake fall for the tower... Ka won't bring Roland to salvation that way.

  7. #32
    Roont Matt will become famous soon enough Matt's Avatar

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    I totally agree phenol, great post.

    I think Roland may have found something different at the Tower if he had not been so keen to sacrafice people to get there. The means do not justify the end sometimes and I believe Roland really didn't understand that.
    The kindness of close friends is like a warm blanket

  8. #33
    Citizen of Gilead TerribleT is on a distinguished road TerribleT's Avatar

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    Ok, but if he doesn't sacrifice Jake, he never gets to the tower, and the world comes apart, because the breakers are already breaking down the beam. He has to catch the man in black in order to gain the information about the drawing. Without that he never gets Eddie, Susannah, or avenges Odetta/Detta. So he has to sacrifice Jake.

  9. #34
    DT.Org's Official Sweetie Wuducynn will become famous soon enough Wuducynn's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by TerribleT View Post
    Ok, but if he doesn't sacrifice Jake, he never gets to the tower
    How do you know this for sure?
    "It's his eyes, Roland thought. They were wide and terrible, the eyes of a dragon in human form" - Roland seeing the Crimson King for the first time.

    "When the King comes and the Tower falls, sai, all such pretty things as yours will be broken. Then there will be darkness and nothing but the howl of Discordia and the cries of the can toi" - From Song of Susannah

  10. #35
    Traveler phenol is on a distinguished road

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    Quote Originally Posted by TerribleT View Post
    Ok, but if he doesn't sacrifice Jake, he never gets to the tower, and the world comes apart, because the breakers are already breaking down the beam. He has to catch the man in black in order to gain the information about the drawing. Without that he never gets Eddie, Susannah, or avenges Odetta/Detta. So he has to sacrifice Jake.
    Ahh spoilers *hides*

    LOL, just kidding. I don't mind too much.

    That's the POINT though. Roland has to *accept* that he might have to damn the tower to do what's right if he ever wants to escape the loop. For him to see the tower, he has to happen upon it, not quest for it so hard that he hurts so many fellow people along the way.

  11. #36
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    I agree. I don't believe not dropping Jake is a choice over reaching the Tower. I think it's the true path to the Tower.

  12. #37
    DT.Org's Official Sweetie Wuducynn will become famous soon enough Wuducynn's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by phenol View Post

    Ahh spoilers *hides*

    LOL, just kidding. I don't mind too much.
    Got to be ever mindful of spoilers..especially in a topic that has in its heading "*HARD spoilers*".
    "It's his eyes, Roland thought. They were wide and terrible, the eyes of a dragon in human form" - Roland seeing the Crimson King for the first time.

    "When the King comes and the Tower falls, sai, all such pretty things as yours will be broken. Then there will be darkness and nothing but the howl of Discordia and the cries of the can toi" - From Song of Susannah

  13. #38
    Traveler phenol is on a distinguished road

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    Quote Originally Posted by All_Hail_The_Crimson_King View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by phenol View Post

    Ahh spoilers *hides*

    LOL, just kidding. I don't mind too much.
    Got to be ever mindful of spoilers..especially in a topic that has in its heading "*HARD spoilers*".
    Yeah I know I should watch it until I finish.

    I honestly don't mind too much - I don't think finding out a few things here and there will ruin my experience.

  14. #39
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    Well that was a pretty small spoiler so I wouldn't worry about it anyway.
    "It's his eyes, Roland thought. They were wide and terrible, the eyes of a dragon in human form" - Roland seeing the Crimson King for the first time.

    "When the King comes and the Tower falls, sai, all such pretty things as yours will be broken. Then there will be darkness and nothing but the howl of Discordia and the cries of the can toi" - From Song of Susannah

  15. #40
    The White! MonteGss is on a distinguished road MonteGss's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by Darkthoughts View Post
    I agree. I don't believe not dropping Jake is a choice over reaching the Tower. I think it's the true path to the Tower.
    Although I've never considered/believed this myself, it is a fascinating idea to think about.

  16. #41
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    Jake had to die in the mountains. For the same reason that Isaac almost had to die on the altar; for the same reason that Iccarus did have to die in the clouds.

    A Sacrifice is demanded. Belief IS demanded. And some gods are bloody.

    And in the mountains Roland has allready sacrificed so much that he will let this child drop - his belief is in only himself and the thing that keeps him moving - and (as we saw in The Wizards Glass) - he will always make the sacrifice to attain "heaven" - The Tower.

    He Must.

  17. #42
    Traveler phenol is on a distinguished road

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    Quote Originally Posted by Childe 007 View Post
    Jake had to die in the mountains. For the same reason that Isaac almost had to die on the altar; for the same reason that Iccarus did have to die in the clouds.

    A Sacrifice is demanded. Belief IS demanded. And some gods are bloody.

    And in the mountains Roland has allready sacrificed so much that he will let this child drop - his belief is in only himself and the thing that keeps him moving - and (as we saw in The Wizards Glass) - he will always make the sacrifice to attain "heaven" - The Tower.

    He Must.
    If this is true, than I'm afraid our poor Roland is forever doomed

    For this tale I believe you're right. But not for the one that lets our hero pass on.

  18. #43
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    Childe: Isaac example is that of not demanding any human sacrifices, from then forever, amen. If there is any analogy here, it's that Jake stayed alive. Proof of belief doesn't have to be as pagan and barbaric the next time it is needed.

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  19. #44
    Along the Path of the Beam Childe 007 is on a distinguished road Childe 007's Avatar

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    If you look - I said - Isaac had to almost...

    And I'm sorry, Jean - but for any Great accomplishment - sacrifice is almost always demanded. That is one of those "life tenants" that I believe in. It may be great or small - but achievement without some form of sacrifice is only wellfare.

    Abraham had to be willing to go the distance - he had no belief that God would renounce and save his son - he only had the faith to believe that if God demanded it - It had to be for the greater good.

    Much as Roland would always see that letting that boy drop would result in the Greater Good.

    Not just this time phenol - but forever - and ever - amen!

  20. #45
    The Tenant Jean has much to be proud of Jean has much to be proud of Jean has much to be proud of Jean has much to be proud of Jean has much to be proud of Jean has much to be proud of Jean has much to be proud of Jean has much to be proud of Jean has much to be proud of Jean has much to be proud of Jean's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by Childe 007 View Post
    If you look - I said - Isaac had to almost...
    I noticed. It doesn't change my point. Isaac was not asked for a human sacrifice. It was clearly proven by the further development of the events.

    And I'm sorry, Jean - but for any Great accomplishment - sacrifice is almost always demanded. That is one of those "life tenants" that I believe in. It may be great or small - but achievement without some form of sacrifice is only wellfare.
    The meaning and contents of sacrifice are not the same every time. For example, sacrificing oneself is not the same as sacrificing an innocent child. Not letting Jake fall - renouncing the Tower - wouldn't be for Roland tantamount to sacrificing everything that he's been living for (with which he identifies; ultimately, himself)?

    Abraham had to be willing to go the distance - he had no belief that God would renounce and save his son - he only had the faith to believe that if God demanded it - It had to be for the greater good.

    Much as Roland would always see that letting that boy drop would result in the Greater Good.
    I am sure any thought of "greater good" was the furthest possible from Abraham's mind (unless we understand the "good" very differently, of course). I also hope Roland will be able to abandon this idiotic notion sooner or later (moreover, that his overcoming this "greater good" dogma is the point of the story).

    Ask not what bears can do for you, but what you can do for bears. (razz)
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  21. #46
    Along the Path of the Beam Childe 007 is on a distinguished road Childe 007's Avatar

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    The meaning and contents of sacrifice are not the same every time. For example, sacrificing oneself is not the same as sacrificing an innocent child. Not letting Jake fall - renouncing the Tower - wouldn't be for Roland tantamount to sacrificing everything that he's been living for (with which he identifies; ultimately, himself)?
    Sacrificing One's Self - IS EASY! We do it for our children and grandchildren - forever and ever - amen. Sacrificing THEM - no parent could do without OVERPOWERING belief. And the only 2 real examples I can even think of are Abraham - who was willing - and by being willing was saved(?); and Roland who Did - Twice!

    I am sure any thought of "greater good" was the furthest possible from Abraham's mind (unless we understand the "good" very differently, of course). I also hope Roland will be able to abandon this idiotic notion sooner or later (moreover, that his overcoming this "greater good" dogma is the point of the story).
    Why else would he do it?

    Because God Told him To?

    Yes - that is exactly why he did it. And he did it with the FAITH that something good would come of it. Abraham was willing to sacrifice his son - as "HIS FATHER" later did - because he believed in the Greater Good.

    Just as Roland "believed' that the sacrifices he made were necessary.

    Gain without sacrifice is welfare.

  22. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jean View Post
    ChildeProof of belief doesn't have to be as pagan and barbaric the next time it is needed.
    Sorry Jean, couldn't you substitute the word pagan for christian? They are far more barbaric throughout their own history than those poor pagan scapegoats.

    Quote Originally Posted by Childe 007 View Post
    Yes - that is exactly why he did it. And he did it with the FAITH that something good would come of it. Abraham was willing to sacrifice his son - as "HIS FATHER" later did - because he believed in the Greater Good.
    Abraham was willing to murder his son because he believed it was for the good. If that actually really happened it wouldn't have been for the good either way. Can you imagine a child trusting an adult who was willingly about to sacrifice them, only to be halted at the last moment by a voice he hears in his head?

    For that same reason, I think Roland must chose to save Jake. Roland sacrifices his obsession with the Tower in doing this (and it is an equal sacrifice, we've seen how the Tower has utterly ruled Roland's very existance.) He believes that by saving Jake he will not reach the Tower, though (I believe) the real consequences of that action would be Roland reaching a tower where there is real salvation for him at the top.

    You see, in the story that we read - Jake never fully trusts Roland, because of his betrayal. Even in the moments when Jake utterly loves Roland, the thought is in the back of his mind; don't let me fall. It's mentioned repeatedly, and so much so that I think it's to drum home a point with the reader.

  23. #48
    The Tenant Jean has much to be proud of Jean has much to be proud of Jean has much to be proud of Jean has much to be proud of Jean has much to be proud of Jean has much to be proud of Jean has much to be proud of Jean has much to be proud of Jean has much to be proud of Jean has much to be proud of Jean's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by Darkthoughts View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Jean View Post
    ChildeProof of belief doesn't have to be as pagan and barbaric the next time it is needed.
    Sorry Jean, couldn't you substitute the word pagan for christian? They are far more barbaric throughout their own history than those poor pagan scapegoats.
    No, I couldn't. Neither word here is used as derogatory, but as merely technical terms. The idea of human sacrifice belongs to paganism, and is rejected by Christianity. Also, I understand that everyone is tempted to attribute to Christianity all faults of human race in its historical development, but please, don't let us get all anti-historical here.

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  24. #49
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    Paganism started as an agricultural religion, sacrifices were animal in the main. Jews and Christians on the other hand sacrificed/slaughtered entire cities because God told them to. I don't attribute anything to Christianity that it doesn't freely divulge in the bible.

    I actually originally intended the comment in humour though

  25. #50
    The Tenant Jean has much to be proud of Jean has much to be proud of Jean has much to be proud of Jean has much to be proud of Jean has much to be proud of Jean has much to be proud of Jean has much to be proud of Jean has much to be proud of Jean has much to be proud of Jean has much to be proud of Jean's Avatar

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    I wouldn't say "Jews and Christians" as if it was the same, because the revolutionary role of New Testament isn't anything to spit on but you're right, let's bury this topic till we restart it in Religious Discussion thread (if we ever do, that is)

    Quote Originally Posted by Childe 007
    Gain without sacrifice is welfare.
    oh, I never said it should be without sacrifice. It's who is sacrificed we disagree on... also, it seems to me that the way you see it, it's rather fair exchange (something is sacrificed - something of equal value is gained); in other words, magic. I think it's another of those archaic (Lisa, I'll use this word if you prefer it, although it is far less specific or correct ) concepts Roland will have to overcome.

    Ask not what bears can do for you, but what you can do for bears. (razz)
    When one is in agreement with bears one is always correct. (mae)

    bears are back!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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