View Poll Results: Knowing what Roland knew, would you have dropped Jake

Voters
56. You may not vote on this poll
  • Yes

    26 46.43%
  • No

    30 53.57%
+ Reply to Thread
Page 1 of 10 1 2 3 ... LastLast
Results 1 to 25 of 231

Thread: Roland's choice *HARD spoilers*

  1. #1
    damned and saved Letti will become famous soon enough Letti's Avatar

    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    Hungary (till I move to Fatu Hiva with Brice)
    Posts
    9,068
    Country
    Country Flag

    Default Roland's choice *HARD spoilers*

    What would have happened if Roland had chosen Jake and he hadn't let him drop?
    Would he ever been able to catch the Man in Black?
    Would it have caused lots of changes?


    I guess many of you think it was ka I can accept that let's try to play with the idea.

    !!! Spoilers all around below !!!

  2. #2
    Constant Reader Darkthoughts has a spectacular aura about Darkthoughts has a spectacular aura about Darkthoughts has a spectacular aura about Darkthoughts's Avatar

    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    UK
    Posts
    9,302
    My Mood
    Cynical
    Country
    Country Flag
    Gender
    Gender

    Default

    I'm personally of the opinion that this is what Roland has to do to truly break the cycle.

  3. #3
    DT.Org's Official Sweetie Wuducynn will become famous soon enough Wuducynn's Avatar

    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    New Hampshire
    Posts
    6,451
    Gender
    Gender

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Darkthoughts View Post
    I'm personally of the opinion that this is what Roland has to do to truly break the cycle.
    I think its a big start. But there is another choice that he might have to make to break the loop.
    "It's his eyes, Roland thought. They were wide and terrible, the eyes of a dragon in human form" - Roland seeing the Crimson King for the first time.

    "When the King comes and the Tower falls, sai, all such pretty things as yours will be broken. Then there will be darkness and nothing but the howl of Discordia and the cries of the can toi" - From Song of Susannah

  4. #4
    Constant Reader Darkthoughts has a spectacular aura about Darkthoughts has a spectacular aura about Darkthoughts has a spectacular aura about Darkthoughts's Avatar

    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    UK
    Posts
    9,302
    My Mood
    Cynical
    Country
    Country Flag
    Gender
    Gender

    Default

    Agreed, for sure, but like you say - I think this is one of the most resonant choices.

  5. #5
    DT.Org's Official Sweetie Wuducynn will become famous soon enough Wuducynn's Avatar

    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    New Hampshire
    Posts
    6,451
    Gender
    Gender

    Default

    It would show that he cares more about love and loyalty to someone than to the quest, far before his realization in DT7 when he wasn't going to let Jake make the sacrifice.
    "It's his eyes, Roland thought. They were wide and terrible, the eyes of a dragon in human form" - Roland seeing the Crimson King for the first time.

    "When the King comes and the Tower falls, sai, all such pretty things as yours will be broken. Then there will be darkness and nothing but the howl of Discordia and the cries of the can toi" - From Song of Susannah

  6. #6
    Numenorean ManOfWesternesse is on a distinguished road ManOfWesternesse's Avatar

    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    Sligo. Ireland.
    Posts
    2,244
    Country
    Country Flag
    Gender
    Gender

    Default

    Roland has to choose Jake, and damn the Tower if necessary. Personally I think that such a choice will not damn the Tower at all - it's all just a Glammer of Walter's, just another tug on Roland's lifeline. But even if it did damn the Tower - he still has to save him.
    <img src=http://i193.photobucket.com/albums/z47/ManOfWesternesse/dt_bcBanner002d.jpg border=0 alt= />

  7. #7
    Guardian of the Beam Storyslinger will become famous soon enough Storyslinger will become famous soon enough Storyslinger's Avatar

    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    Wisconsin
    Posts
    3,323
    My Mood
    Dead
    Country
    Country Flag
    Gender
    Gender

    Default

    I think that Roland needed to let him drop, not that I wanted it to happen though. He needed to get Jake later in the quest, by drawing him. I think he would have lost Jake before he was able to Reach the Tower, this time for good, no coming back, an thus ends the cycle.

  8. #8
    Sleep Controller ZoNeSeeK is on a distinguished road ZoNeSeeK's Avatar

    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    Perth, Australia
    Posts
    3,381
    Country
    Country Flag
    Gender
    Gender

    Default

    But if you think about it, had he not let Jake fall, he would have continued on to the doorways even without Walter's prophecy - Walter didnt tell him where they were, and with Roland's faith in Ka he would have gone through them (why else were they there?) - he would have drawn Eddie and Susannah with Jake's help (and may not have lost his fingers).

    They would not have had to use the speaking ring so Susannah would never have become pregnant with Mordred, and then the issues that arose from Mia and Black 13, with the ka-tet being split etc, wouldnt have occured. Their whole adventure in NYC would have been markedly different.

    But who is to say what would have happened - its assuming that some other peril at the Western Sea or in Mir's forest wouldn't have arisen due to Jake's presence. Letting Jake fall (and Roland's consequent guilt, need for reunion and then love for him) is the driving catalyst for many of the plot structures that followed - and it also tested the mettle of Eddie and Susannah as ka-tet and Gunslingers in the efforts to get him back. Roland's character may never have grown if this didn't happen - Eddie's, Susannah's and Jake's feelings towards him may never have amounted to dinh. Perhaps it was crucial to the ka-tet's bonding for Roland to go through his personal crisis with Jake.

    But on the other hand, logic could dictate that the ka-tet would have formed much more quickly and been far stronger with someone of Jake's talents with them from the start. Who is to say? I always thought it was foolish of Roland to sacrifice Jake because of a thinly believable promise from Walter. And he was duped, the stupid man, like he should have known he would have been by someone with Walter's abilities. Did he really think it was as simple as grabbing his robe and hauling his ass over for a beating?
    "You can lead a whore to culture but you can't make her think." - Duma Key
    zoneseek@thedarktower.com

  9. #9
    Guardian of the Beam Storyslinger will become famous soon enough Storyslinger will become famous soon enough Storyslinger's Avatar

    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    Wisconsin
    Posts
    3,323
    My Mood
    Dead
    Country
    Country Flag
    Gender
    Gender

    Default



    Well put ZOne

  10. #10
    Banned Jimmy is on a distinguished road

    Join Date
    May 2007
    Posts
    814

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by ZoNeSeeK View Post
    But if you think about it, had he not let Jake fall, he would have continued on to the doorways even without Walter's prophecy - Walter didnt tell him where they were, and with Roland's faith in Ka he would have gone through them (why else were they there?) - he would have drawn Eddie and Susannah with Jake's help (and may not have lost his fingers).

    They would not have had to use the speaking ring so Susannah would never have become pregnant with Mordred, and then the issues that arose from Mia and Black 13, with the ka-tet being split etc, wouldnt have occured. Their whole adventure in NYC would have been markedly different.

    But who is to say what would have happened - its assuming that some other peril at the Western Sea or in Mir's forest wouldn't have arisen due to Jake's presence. Letting Jake fall (and Roland's consequent guilt, need for reunion and then love for him) is the driving catalyst for many of the plot structures that followed - and it also tested the mettle of Eddie and Susannah as ka-tet and Gunslingers in the efforts to get him back. Roland's character may never have grown if this didn't happen - Eddie's, Susannah's and Jake's feelings towards him may never have amounted to dinh. Perhaps it was crucial to the ka-tet's bonding for Roland to go through his personal crisis with Jake.

    But on the other hand, logic could dictate that the ka-tet would have formed much more quickly and been far stronger with someone of Jake's talents with them from the start. Who is to say? I always thought it was foolish of Roland to sacrifice Jake because of a thinly believable promise from Walter. And he was duped, the stupid man, like he should have known he would have been by someone with Walter's abilities. Did he really think it was as simple as grabbing his robe and hauling his ass over for a beating?
    *Applauds"

    Well said sir. Though, I personally see nothing wrong with Roland being more Cort-esque to the new 'slingers, it might've toughened them up considerably more.

  11. #11
    Guardian of the Beam Storyslinger will become famous soon enough Storyslinger will become famous soon enough Storyslinger's Avatar

    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    Wisconsin
    Posts
    3,323
    My Mood
    Dead
    Country
    Country Flag
    Gender
    Gender

    Default

    True, they may have been tougher, but in the end, ka's a wheel

  12. #12
    Traveler not-man is on a distinguished road not-man's Avatar

    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Posts
    2

    Default

    Change one thing, you change everything, but wouldn't there still be a paradox because of Jack Mort?

    It wasn't just Walter, but also the oracle that said "Death, but not for you, gunslinger."

    Killing Mort before he pushes Jake makes the paradox, so it doesn't matter that Roland dropped him. If he was with the ka-tet at door #3 he would have to disappear and be drawn again.

  13. #13
    Roont Matt will become famous soon enough Matt's Avatar

    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    Parachute, Colorado
    Posts
    15,112
    My Mood
    Psychedelic
    Country
    Country Flag
    Gender
    Gender

    Default

    great insight not-man.

    I believe they could have simply skipped the ring of stones had Jake been already with them. But you are right, not dropping him would have changed everything.
    The kindness of close friends is like a warm blanket

  14. #14
    Guardian of the Beam Storyslinger will become famous soon enough Storyslinger will become famous soon enough Storyslinger's Avatar

    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    Wisconsin
    Posts
    3,323
    My Mood
    Dead
    Country
    Country Flag
    Gender
    Gender

    Default

    Wow, when you think about it, that really would have f'd things up. Great post Not-man

  15. #15
    Roont Brice has much to be proud of Brice has much to be proud of Brice has much to be proud of Brice has much to be proud of Brice has much to be proud of Brice has much to be proud of Brice has much to be proud of Brice has much to be proud of Brice's Avatar

    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    Lettiland
    Posts
    22,328
    My Mood
    Aggressive
    Country
    Country Flag

    Default

    Maybe Roland really shouldn't have let Jake fall. Do you think it would have changed his quest if he kicked Jake down instead?
    The Awesomest fled across the desert and The Awesomer followed.

    If you rescue me
    Iíll be your friend forever


    I wish that I could write fiction, but that seems almost an impossibility. -howard phillips lovecraft (1915)



  16. #16
    Guardian of the Beam Storyslinger will become famous soon enough Storyslinger will become famous soon enough Storyslinger's Avatar

    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    Wisconsin
    Posts
    3,323
    My Mood
    Dead
    Country
    Country Flag
    Gender
    Gender

    Default

    Yeah, he probably would have tripped and fell with him

  17. #17
    Nigel Tufnel Odetta has a spectacular aura about Odetta has a spectacular aura about Odetta has a spectacular aura about Odetta's Avatar

    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    California
    Posts
    4,996
    My Mood
    Confused
    Gender
    Gender

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Darkthoughts View Post
    I'm personally of the opinion that this is what Roland has to do to truly break the cycle.
    I agree 100%
    There's a fine line between stupid and clever.

    You can't really dust for vomit.

  18. #18
    DT.Org's Official Sweetie Wuducynn will become famous soon enough Wuducynn's Avatar

    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    New Hampshire
    Posts
    6,451
    Gender
    Gender

    Default

    It would have been great if Roland had just come to the realization that it would be better if he just died with Jake and jumped with him to their deaths.
    "It's his eyes, Roland thought. They were wide and terrible, the eyes of a dragon in human form" - Roland seeing the Crimson King for the first time.

    "When the King comes and the Tower falls, sai, all such pretty things as yours will be broken. Then there will be darkness and nothing but the howl of Discordia and the cries of the can toi" - From Song of Susannah

  19. #19
    damned and saved Letti will become famous soon enough Letti's Avatar

    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    Hungary (till I move to Fatu Hiva with Brice)
    Posts
    9,068
    Country
    Country Flag

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by All_Hail_The_Crimson_King View Post
    It would have been great if Roland had just come to the realization that it would be better if he just died with Jake and jumped with him to their deaths.
    But that person wouldn't have been Roland the gunslinger but someone else.

    Roland would have understood.

  20. #20
    DT.Org's Official Sweetie Wuducynn will become famous soon enough Wuducynn's Avatar

    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    New Hampshire
    Posts
    6,451
    Gender
    Gender

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Letti View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by All_Hail_The_Crimson_King View Post
    It would have been great if Roland had just come to the realization that it would be better if he just died with Jake and jumped with him to their deaths.
    But that person wouldn't have been Roland the gunslinger but someone else.
    If Los's spiders were able to bite King and turn him the "kas-ka Los" instead of the "kas-ka Gan", he could instill Roland with the idea that it would be better for him to jump and take Jake with him.
    "It's his eyes, Roland thought. They were wide and terrible, the eyes of a dragon in human form" - Roland seeing the Crimson King for the first time.

    "When the King comes and the Tower falls, sai, all such pretty things as yours will be broken. Then there will be darkness and nothing but the howl of Discordia and the cries of the can toi" - From Song of Susannah

  21. #21
    Roont Matt will become famous soon enough Matt's Avatar

    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    Parachute, Colorado
    Posts
    15,112
    My Mood
    Psychedelic
    Country
    Country Flag
    Gender
    Gender

    Default

    **decides to never kid about a ritual suicide pact with Matthew**
    The kindness of close friends is like a warm blanket

  22. #22
    Traveler not-man is on a distinguished road not-man's Avatar

    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Posts
    2

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Odetta View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Darkthoughts View Post
    I'm personally of the opinion that this is what Roland has to do to truly break the cycle.
    I agree 100%
    I agree that Roland won't drop him. Not that it will break the cycle.

    If he doesn't drop him under the mountains, and Jake is with them at the doors, isn't he dropping Jake again by killing Mort? Granted he does it to save Susannah. But he has to sacrifice one of them at that door. If he saves Jake there by letting Mort live, he dooms Susannah. Oh yeah, and kills Jake.......

    Wow this is making my head hurt

  23. #23
    Roont Matt will become famous soon enough Matt's Avatar

    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    Parachute, Colorado
    Posts
    15,112
    My Mood
    Psychedelic
    Country
    Country Flag
    Gender
    Gender

    Default

    This brings up the question of the original Jake. The one that died under the tires and again in under the mountains.

    I believe the Jake that was saved was a different one. I wonder if the first was keystone Jake.
    The kindness of close friends is like a warm blanket

  24. #24
    Gunslinger Daghain is on a distinguished road Daghain's Avatar

    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    Nope
    Posts
    15,650
    My Mood
    Twisted
    Country
    Country Flag

    Default

    Hmmm. Now that's an interesting question. But if the first one was Keystone Jake, wouldn't he have been in the Keystone world, and then actually dead? Because once you die in the Keystone world you can't come back.



    "People, especially children, aren't measured by their IQ. What's important about them is whether they're good or bad, and these children are bad." ~ Alan Bernard


    "You needn't die happy when your day comes, but you must die satisfied, for you have lived your life from beginning to end and ka is always served." ~ Roland Deschain

  25. #25
    Roont Matt will become famous soon enough Matt's Avatar

    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    Parachute, Colorado
    Posts
    15,112
    My Mood
    Psychedelic
    Country
    Country Flag
    Gender
    Gender

    Default

    Thats true, so perhaps the Dutch Hill Jake was keystone but that can't be unless the Eddie there was also Keystone.

    That would also mean the...
    Spoiler:
    two at the end were not


    Because Eddie never met keystone Jake if that was the case.
    The kindness of close friends is like a warm blanket

+ Reply to Thread
Page 1 of 10 1 2 3 ... LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts