Well, in order for there to be truly infinite worlds creation must be an infinite process. Worlds are born all the time I think.
Do you not imagine a god's voice as being fearful? I think how we'd hear it is far from it's true nature.Originally Posted by Letti
There is no such thing as overthinking, really. It's an interesting idea.
Thanks! And precisely so.
From order comes chaos and vice versa.
Similar to the metatron, definitely.
Sounds are not humanlike necessarily. Perhaps he has a voice that we would interpret quite different from how his ears would hear it.
Yes, but sounds and voices are the vibration of air, and it is a kind of wave motion. So it's not just humanlike.. it's not the right word but so... physical.
Roland would have understood.
but how do we know the kammmen ARE sounds? they could only be inside their heads. huh. maybe all the kammen are, are the ringing ears of travels cause by massive vibration when traveling through todash for some reason
its either kind of like the butterfly effect the horn changes a variable and will no doubt have a knock on effect
Spoiler:
I like that theory, the Dark Tower can certainly exist in all worlds as different things (as we know)
Perhaps this time he will get to save a dog.
^totally serious.
But I think the end literally resets time and having the horn means that a different Roland (no matter how slight) is beginning the journey this time. Hopefully he will cry off and end it.
The kindness of close friends is like a warm blanket
even if the end didnt literally reset time it would be like it had to roland as he is reset and remembers nothing of the previous loop the horn being the only difference is the only way in which it is different this time round and therefore the only means by which there may be changes in the next journey to the tower
Ah, thank you for all of the great explainations, everyone. =)
Well, I guess it was just hard to wrap my head around the fact that time was being reversed solely for Roland. But I suppose it's more of a personal thing. At least that's what I'm gathering.
Edit:
Okay, I've been contemplating it, and here's why I've been puzzled with this ending. I thought Roland's ascension to the top of the tower was the final step in saving all existence. But I realize now that they restored the beams and everything was gravy albeit the Crimson King's rule of the lone balcony of the Tower. He was just a threat to the tower's well being, since he so highly opposed Roland.
So esentially, Roland reaching the top of the Tower wasn't the key to saving the worlds (In other words, reaching the top was a personal vendetta.) The ka-tet saved existence by restoring the beam. Correct?
Sorry, I had this whole long discussion with a friend of mine, and am not sure if I'm making any sense. xD
i think that's the main part, in taking down the King and the threat to the Tower. What i have been thinking about is, how many times could Roland have been making this quest, as the story in which we are all so familiar with is not the first? mmmmm?
put that in your pipe and smoke it.
clashing worlds anywhere where the fabric of reality is strained and the mechanisms are quiting lets not also forget it was all once real magic holding this structure in place, for whatever reason the magic was weakened and this ancient civilization who arent about in the time of roland made the system which the tower is a part of as a replacement support system, shame they arent about for it wouldnt have been as easy for the crimson kings minions to weaken the beams and break them if the makers were there to run maintanance
I got confused while reading the part in which rat-headed nurse Alia is helping Mia deliver Moldred. She's named as both a "Low woman" and as a Taheen. She has a forehead mark like the Can-toi, but wears no mask, and its features are implied to be different than the other "Low men".
Also, I've supposed from the first moment that both groups of creatures (the Taheen and the Can-toi) are separate and different, but I don't know if I'm right in it.
Thank you all in advance for any light you can add in this subject, and excuse the inconveniences.
I guess I got the wrong board while posting this... could you please move it to the place where it should be, in order not to cause any inconveniences?
Thank you.
Can-toi are human-taheen hybrids. I.e. the result of interbreeding between the two species.
It's never made clear as to which Alia is. She could be a can-toi without a mask, or a rat-head taheen. (Did she have the forehead eye? I forget, I'll need to check. I was somewhat confused whether it was part of the mask or the can-toi.Spoiler:
Thank you, Brainslinger... that of the forehead mark is said in the Dark Tower, not in Song of Susannah...
I think she's can-toi, chiefly because of her mark, although I get puzzled by her brown rat-like fur, with no defect being described by the author, as opposed to the reddish toothed one of can-toi. I suppose that just like with men, that will be variable... perhaps Alia is some kind of "purest can-toi", given her important task... anyway, that's just divagation. Will go on reading just now.
Two things stick out in my mind after I just completed the series.
First...Black Thirteen in the WTC. I know the end of the series was completed after 9/11 occured and King had opportunities to address what might have happened to it once the towers fell.....but black 13 was the most powerful globe of the wizards bend, do you think the destruction of the towers could also be the destruction of black 13 or will it wake again now that its been disrupted? Or did it return to Calla Bryn Sturgis once Roland reached the top of the tower....Ka's a wheel afterall.
Also, what do you think was the significence of Roland not taking the time to grab the horn once it fell....was time punishing him for not stoping to retrieve it? Is ka give him a second chance to do it right this time....to bring the horn of Eld to the tower....did he need the horn to complete his quest? Or is he just doomed and destined to repeat the quest over and over?
I had mixed emotions when I finished the series....I felt like I had lost some close friends when I closed the book. I almost felt like Suzannah at the end when I was reading about Eddie and Jake....like I was forgetting what they were like before their deaths...they seemed almost as strange to me as they must have to Suzannah.
Any chance King extends the story to another book? Possibly addressing some current events in our world? There seems to be plenty of ways to tie them in
Hey Pennywise, welcome to the site.
These questions and more are being discussed as we speak all over the place, some amazing insight from fans out there.
Its a great feeling to be done with the series.
Personally, I believe the loops are vastly different every time so the fate of black13 is unknown...I like to think a construction worker found it and accidentally sent himself to todash with it but who knows
Finding the horn (to me) changes everything but not necessarily in a good way. I do hope that it means Roland is gaining humanity along the way and therefor is a step closer to salvation but I think that can only really come by crying off the quest as sad as that sounds.
yes matt by the time he has got that far the beams are already restored really he should cry off as he doesnt need to get to the tower after the beams are safe
do u think that now that he has the horn ,if we read the whole series again things will change and roland will finally be able to resti hope so..
I just finished also. Read the whole lot in about 3 weeks. I did not read anything but the Dark Tower books though so I'm sure I missed some of the tie in info.
My personal take is in Rolands world, that has moved on, people live under the presumption that Ka is the be all and end all. Roland believes he is destined to complete a task, (I believe his task to be death). His path will be what it will be, unable to shape its destiny himself.
I think what his ka-tet from other worlds bring is a sense of realisation that life isnt as black and white as that. That there is choice. By making the right choices he can alter outcomes.
We already know that in all worlds but 19 time is not a factor, and even then Jake still exists in other worlds after he dies in world 19. This means that anyone who dies potentially gets a "do over" until their piece of the puzzle is complete.
I guess we are to think that until the point where Roland doesnt grab the horn, he has completed that part of the puzzle correctly. What part the horn had to play only SK knows. I would hazzard a guess that if you delve into the legends of King Arthur and Excalibur you might find some answers, or at least an idea.
Personally I think that Roland went wrong when he put his quest above his concern for the lives of others. So in my version he would have re entered his own story right back when he sacrifices his bird David to advance his destiny.
Rolands world is obviously a future after some kind of nuclear war or something of similar devistating effect. I assume that in some way his world is what will become of all worlds if the balance isnt restored. His world appear to be the most advanced along in time as we never see the ka tet go forward in time only back. I am also assuming, as MR King is an integral part of the balance of things, that time before his conception is no longer accessable. Perhaps it was once before he became a key part of the puzzle.
I liken the different worlds to time theory, where all possible outcomes create a parallel world. For example I go left in world 1 and right in world 2. I think the time lines are able to rejoin when enough events in the different versions of things colaborate. This would then lead to situations where people have slightly different recollections of the past as maybe they were concious of a slightly different time line up until that point.
I think the rose represents the beginning of things and the tower is the end. Rolond is questing to end. He cant end until he completes his part of things.
We can assume I think that each cycle he will experience some kind of De Ja Vu which helps him to make the right choices based on previous mistakes. I think the characters strong in the touch have lived their part more times than Roland and hense have a better recollection of what to doand are closer to their end.
Wow this got long fast...Perhaps I should break it down heh
dear friends,
thank you very much for your contribution, your thoughts are very important and very interesting! Please look around, I am sure you will find specific threads where the points you have made are being discussed; if you don't, feel free to start a thread on whatever particular quesion or concept interests you!
Ask not what bears can do for you, but what you can do for bears. (razz)
When one is in agreement with bears one is always correct. (mae)
bears are back!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
All that's left of what we were is what we have become.
Hi, I'm working on the Randall Flagg article on Wikipedia and some of these need citing. I was wondering if anyone who had the books nearby and/or memorized stuff could help. If it requires a lot of work, don't bother, I'll try getting them from the library or my personal collection.
All I need is the page number and the edition. Everything else I can do on my own.
1. When Flagg is called The Dark Man (The Stand?)
2. When Flagg is called The Ageless Stranger (The Stand/Dark Tower?)
3. When Flagg is called a quasi-immortal wizard. dt vii spoiler:Spoiler:
4. Walter's flashback appearance in Wizard and Glass.
5. Walter's flashback appearance in Song of Susannah.
Last edited by sarah; 09-15-2008 at 07:16 AM. Reason: added spoiler tags *maerlyn
A hound will die for you, but never lie to you. And he'll look you straight in the face.
My Collection
1) First line of Chapter 23
2) Never in The Stand; The Gunslinger part 5, the man in black mentions the ageless stranger
3) Page 174 of the US hardcover edition. Chapter III: The Shining Wire, part One
4) Chapter IV (Roland and Cuthbert) section 13 is where he first appears
5) Walter doesn't really appear in SoS, except as part of Mia's story. He appears in Father C's story in WotC in section eighteen of Chapter IX: The Priest's Tale Concluded