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Thread: Dark Tower Twins, Twinners & Reincarnations (Spoilers all around!!!)

  1. #251
    Constant Reader Darkthoughts has a spectacular aura about Darkthoughts has a spectacular aura about Darkthoughts has a spectacular aura about Darkthoughts's Avatar

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    Ahhhh, ok, yes I wasn't entirely getting what you were saying there before! But agreed on how you've stated it above.

    I think that's part of the trouble with the principles of TDT. King has outlined certain concepts at the start (and in linked books) that he changes his mind about in the latter books, so we're trying to theorize off something that is being viewed different ways by the author even before we add our understanding of it.

    I'm sure Parkus says something in Black House about Roland being the last of his line too, it may just be that he's the last gunslinger. However, I was thinking about your multiple Rolands theory this morning and wanted to ask, what do you suppose then happens to each Roland as they reach the top of the Tower and the loop starts again? Because it seems to me that the loop is a lesson/punishment, but if each Roland is then left as Gan jumps to the next one, he's not really stuck in a loop at all.

  2. #252
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    Redemption is a fragile rose in a plot of asphalt. I seriously adore The Colorado Kid; I'm always eagerly pointing out that it was the very next work SK put out after DT7, and the whole theme there has to do with the desire of the reading public for digestible black and white through-lines. In real fictive composition, my absolute favorite ending in all SK is of course It, with it's epic layered completeness and self-contained thematic sophistication. Followed closely by the remarkable bold profiles of Gan in The Stand and Desperation. These are all about the tragedy of the human condition on this horrible plane, this fallen earth of inevitable pressures to pick lesser evils. Stuck alone and imperfect, we can but try to give some service to the loved ones we hurt by ourselves (war torn that race we are) and hope against hope that it is worthy enough. Treating reincarnation against revision of the horror genre's grandsire, the romantic saga, King makes a dark edge of sci-fi convention. But I'm not really claiming to understand how it works -- I've already admitted that I have puzzled for years over the possibilities. If it's true that multiple Rolands are becoming singular, then it might actually be kind of a reward in an existential sense. Yet he's so in the dark, kept on pins like any mortal hoping for heaven. A deeper punishment would be if multiple Rolands are splitting from the one -- even if they just pass away into mere ghosts in the past, in the next universe. The hell of it all in either case, beyond the tribulation of his experience, is that the horrors of his youth and the fate of Mid-World are apparently set. I brought up the question of how we know others because, if you appeal to the importance of the moral lesson to put others first to justify the proposed second form of multiverse metaphysic in this pocket dimension scenario, then genuine capacity to reach others and be heroic in practice is THE crucial issue. Then consider, in light of all of this, the metafiction reflections in the "On Being Nineteen" essay, and you're ready to marvel at King, contemporary pulp writer, letting ride that GAWD BOMB.

  3. #253
    Fundraiser Emeritus Merlin1958 seldom gets put on hold Merlin1958 seldom gets put on hold Merlin1958 seldom gets put on hold Merlin1958 seldom gets put on hold Merlin1958 seldom gets put on hold Merlin1958 seldom gets put on hold Merlin1958 seldom gets put on hold Merlin1958 seldom gets put on hold Merlin1958 seldom gets put on hold Merlin1958 seldom gets put on hold Merlin1958 seldom gets put on hold Merlin1958's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by Darkthoughts View Post
    Ahhhh, ok, yes I wasn't entirely getting what you were saying there before! But agreed on how you've stated it above.

    I think that's part of the trouble with the principles of TDT. King has outlined certain concepts at the start (and in linked books) that he changes his mind about in the latter books, so we're trying to theorize off something that is being viewed different ways by the author even before we add our understanding of it.

    I'm sure Parkus says something in Black House about Roland being the last of his line too, it may just be that he's the last gunslinger. However, I was thinking about your multiple Rolands theory this morning and wanted to ask, what do you suppose then happens to each Roland as they reach the top of the Tower and the loop starts again? Because it seems to me that the loop is a lesson/punishment, but if each Roland is then left as Gan jumps to the next one, he's not really stuck in a loop at all.
    Very well stated!!! This logic is what leaves me to believe that Roland has to be "Singular" and representative of "mankind" throughout the multi-verse. Otherwise, if there were infinite "Roland's" why bother "looping him? Each critical choice would be made throughout the multi-verse and therefore the "solution" or right "choice made" at some point.

    Again, well stated IMHO!!!

  4. #254
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    Well, yes, that's a possibility, but isn't it even more horrible if Roland is singular at the center of the multiverse and everything else is infinitely replicated around him? Putting a representative ahead of the literal mankind seems crazy. We have to assume that the meaning of his life is eventually somehow reconciled to the meaning of life itself, or else we're left with the conclusion that existence for others is basically pointless. It's a huge Catch-22 if Gan means to say "Let Me worry about the big picture, Roland; you just focus on yourself and your pathetic tendency to overlook the big picture."

  5. #255
    Fundraiser Emeritus Merlin1958 seldom gets put on hold Merlin1958 seldom gets put on hold Merlin1958 seldom gets put on hold Merlin1958 seldom gets put on hold Merlin1958 seldom gets put on hold Merlin1958 seldom gets put on hold Merlin1958 seldom gets put on hold Merlin1958 seldom gets put on hold Merlin1958 seldom gets put on hold Merlin1958 seldom gets put on hold Merlin1958 seldom gets put on hold Merlin1958's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by pathoftheturtle View Post
    Well, yes, that's a possibility, but isn't it even more horrible if Roland is singular at the center of the multiverse and everything else is infinitely replicated around him? Putting a representative ahead of the literal mankind seems crazy. We have to assume that the meaning of his life is eventually somehow reconciled to the meaning of life itself, or else we're left with the conclusion that existence for others is basically pointless. It's a huge Catch-22 if Gan means to say "Let Me worry about the big picture, Roland; you just focus on yourself and your pathetic tendency to overlook the big picture."
    Well, tragic for Roland maybe, but I always thought that in reality his choices were made as a representation of the evolution of mankind throughout the Multi-verse. As mankind makes positive steps forward, Roland gets closer to the top of the Tower and enlightenment and an end to his looping. When Mankind finally gets to the proper level of evolution, so to speak, Rolands jouney will finally come to its fruition.

  6. #256
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    Quote Originally Posted by pathoftheturtle View Post
    Well, yes, that's a possibility, but isn't it even more horrible if Roland is singular at the center of the multiverse and everything else is infinitely replicated around him?
    But "everything else" doesn't have to be infinitely replicated. Gan could very easily have Roland stuck in this repeating capsule of time, as I've said before, with the rest of the multiverse carrying on as normal.

  7. #257
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    Quote Originally Posted by Merlin1958 View Post
    ... I always thought that in reality his choices were made as a representation of the evolution of mankind throughout the Multi-verse. As mankind makes positive steps forward, Roland gets closer to the top of the Tower and enlightenment and an end to his looping. When Mankind finally gets to the proper level of evolution, so to speak, Rolands jouney will finally come to its fruition.
    Oh, now I see. That's very interesting. Thanks for clarifying.

    Quote Originally Posted by Darkthoughts View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by pathoftheturtle View Post
    Well, yes, that's a possibility, but isn't it even more horrible if Roland is singular at the center of the multiverse and everything else is infinitely replicated around him?
    But "everything else" doesn't have to be infinitely replicated. Gan could very easily have Roland stuck in this repeating capsule of time, as I've said before, with the rest of the multiverse carrying on as normal.
    That's a different hypothetical, though. I just want to establish that a theory being horrible or making for an unhappy ending doesn't necessarily mean that it is false. I know I should be more precise and stick to the point, but I did say that I intended to pause on that before your last question. My problem with what you're talking about is basically that it appears to contradict that same punishment/lesson theme you've focused on. The lesson is supposed to be to have empathy for others and to care about their good in a direct and immediate way rather than just self-righteously pursuing the good of the people in the abstract, yet the punishment is isolation. Roland really can't do good for anyone around him if his whole world is an illusion and the only consequences of his actions are for himself.

    If Gan looked down on Roland on his seventeenth try and said to Himself, "He still acts like he is the only person in the universe who matters." don't you think that it would give Him pause that He would know perfectly well that in Roland's universe, he really IS the only person who matters? And could He continue to blame Roland when He also knew that Roland would subconsciously know this, too, and that Roland would even have a subconscious awareness that Gan knows that he knows? If Roland is trapped alone in a pocket dimension which exists for no purpose other than to be escaped from by Roland, then I would say that the feeling that everything is pointless aside from the Tower is in his case entirely correct and absolutely sane.

    And even though I'll concede that Gan could create that in theory, I'm really not so sure how easy it would be. Seems to me that it would have to have side effects on the larger multiverse at least in some degree.

    In fact, that type of concept is pretty foreign to my way of thinking in general -- I can see it, if I try, but it's not the first thing that occurs to me. It seems to me sometimes that many people (including Stephen King) stratify hypothetical worlds and twinners into the more and the less important, and I don't understand the basis of this thinking. I think it would all be relative. If there are or were alternate universes, I'd tend to assume that any given alternate me would be just as real to himself as I am to myself and that his parallel universe would be exactly as meaningful as mine is on an existential level. Otherwise, by definition, it actually just does not exist.
    Last edited by pathoftheturtle; 09-14-2011 at 06:54 AM. Reason: added points

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