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Thread: Dark Tower Twins, Twinners & Reincarnations (Spoilers all around!!!)

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    The White! MonteGss is on a distinguished road MonteGss's Avatar

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    :radioactive: Dark Tower Twins, Twinners & Reincarnations (Spoilers all around!!!)

    This has been touched on in a number of threads a few times. I think minor arguments or large disagreements have started as well because of it.

    I'd like this thread to be used to discuss who you thought they were. For example, imo, Marten is a twinner of Walter. Also, I believe that Eddie is the twin of Cuthbert. For me, they aren't twinners (like Sloat and Morgan) because they are not living at the same time.

    Now some people think that Eddie is Cuthbert's reincarnation. I disagree and I think that it is a different occurrence entirely.


    So, I know we are getting into semi-existentialism and such but I thought this could be the place for it.
    What do you guys think? Also, why?

    Let the discussion begin!

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    DT.Org's Official Sweetie Wuducynn will become famous soon enough Wuducynn's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by MonteGss View Post
    For example, imo, Marten is a twinner of Walter.
    Since I know you've read DT7 and the The Gunslinger Born and you know its already been proven that they're the same person, I guess I'll need a definition for what you mean by "twinner".
    "It's his eyes, Roland thought. They were wide and terrible, the eyes of a dragon in human form" - Roland seeing the Crimson King for the first time.

    "When the King comes and the Tower falls, sai, all such pretty things as yours will be broken. Then there will be darkness and nothing but the howl of Discordia and the cries of the can toi" - From Song of Susannah

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    The White! MonteGss is on a distinguished road MonteGss's Avatar

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    How about..the same person but able to flip to different levels of the Tower...?

    So, how do each of you define Twinners?
    How are they different from twins? Or aren't they?


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    Hmmmm okay. By that definition, sure.
    "It's his eyes, Roland thought. They were wide and terrible, the eyes of a dragon in human form" - Roland seeing the Crimson King for the first time.

    "When the King comes and the Tower falls, sai, all such pretty things as yours will be broken. Then there will be darkness and nothing but the howl of Discordia and the cries of the can toi" - From Song of Susannah

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    The White! MonteGss is on a distinguished road MonteGss's Avatar

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    It could be argued that Sloat and Morgan are the "same" person, similar to Marten and Walter. When the entity/soul/persona/person flips into another level, their twinner flips as well. When Marten is on one level of the tower, Walter is on another. I pictured that happening in the comics when Marten "morphed" into Walter.

    I don't see these being clearly defined thoughts by anyone...I just hope to hear others' thoughts and hopefully I can understand them better myself.

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    You've got me thinking about it. Great topic for a thread.
    "It's his eyes, Roland thought. They were wide and terrible, the eyes of a dragon in human form" - Roland seeing the Crimson King for the first time.

    "When the King comes and the Tower falls, sai, all such pretty things as yours will be broken. Then there will be darkness and nothing but the howl of Discordia and the cries of the can toi" - From Song of Susannah

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    Yeah this is a good thread

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    The White! MonteGss is on a distinguished road MonteGss's Avatar

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    A great thread is one where people post and comment, is it not?
    I admit, my topic may be one where people have to think a bit but I think it is a worthy thought/topic.

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    damned and saved Letti will become famous soon enough Letti will become famous soon enough Letti's Avatar

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    In my eyes Eddie a Cuthbert are very different.

    Roland would have understood.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Letti View Post
    In my eyes Eddie a Cuthbert are very different.
    Even though Roland goes on and on about how similar they are through every book since he's met him?
    "It's his eyes, Roland thought. They were wide and terrible, the eyes of a dragon in human form" - Roland seeing the Crimson King for the first time.

    "When the King comes and the Tower falls, sai, all such pretty things as yours will be broken. Then there will be darkness and nothing but the howl of Discordia and the cries of the can toi" - From Song of Susannah

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    damned and saved Letti will become famous soon enough Letti will become famous soon enough Letti's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by All_Hail_The_Crimson_King View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Letti View Post
    In my eyes Eddie a Cuthbert are very different.
    Even though Roland goes on and on about how similar they are through every book since he's met him?
    Yes.
    And my answer is still yes.
    Okay.
    Both have good sense of homour. And they are both gunslingers and the friends of Roland.
    Anything else?
    Cuthbert handles the things such a different way. He respects and loves Roland such a different way. He didn't have a black monkey. And so on and so on...

    I don't day they are not similar. But they are more different. But it's understandable Roland sees Cuthbert in Eddie all the time.

    Roland would have understood.

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    This is the line in Song of Susannah that makes me think that Eddie is a reincarnation of Cuthbert (or possibly a twinner going by Monte-bators definition) - Page 293 of the hardcover edition - Eddie "I'd feel better about my heroism if I remembered it," Eddie said. Then: "You realize that when this guy was seven, I wasn't even born?"
    Roland smiled. "Ka is a wheel. You've been turning on it under different names for a long time. Cuthbert for one, it seems."

    Now what do you think of that part? Do you think Roland is wrong there?
    "It's his eyes, Roland thought. They were wide and terrible, the eyes of a dragon in human form" - Roland seeing the Crimson King for the first time.

    "When the King comes and the Tower falls, sai, all such pretty things as yours will be broken. Then there will be darkness and nothing but the howl of Discordia and the cries of the can toi" - From Song of Susannah

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    damned and saved Letti will become famous soon enough Letti will become famous soon enough Letti's Avatar

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    Roland was often wrong. I can't say that he was wrong when he told that but I can say I think he was wrong.
    Cuthbert was the bestest friend of Roland for long. And we know very well how closed Roland is and he didn't have many people in his life he could love and belong to. It's natural he would like to believe Eddie is not just a new real friend but Cuthbert himself.
    Each person Roland has ever loved and died because of him or not haunts him as long as he lives and exists.

    Just my 2 cents.

    Roland would have understood.

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    fully agree with Nikolett about the difference between Eddie and Cuthbert

    Ask not what bears can do for you, but what you can do for bears. (razz)
    When one is in agreement with bears one is always correct. (mae)

    bears are back!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jean View Post
    fully agree with Nikolett about the difference between Eddie and Cuthbert
    Incredible.

    Roland would have understood.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jean View Post
    fully agree with Nikolett about the difference between Eddie and Cuthbert
    Awhile ago you wanted me to post where I got the idea that Eddie was a reincarnation of Cuthbert...well there you go. I think he is. Doesn't mean he is a carbon copy but I think Rolands old ka-tet go with him in new bodies through the years, because they were never really broken but have always been with him.
    "It's his eyes, Roland thought. They were wide and terrible, the eyes of a dragon in human form" - Roland seeing the Crimson King for the first time.

    "When the King comes and the Tower falls, sai, all such pretty things as yours will be broken. Then there will be darkness and nothing but the howl of Discordia and the cries of the can toi" - From Song of Susannah

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    I remember. I am reading now, and thinking.

    Ask not what bears can do for you, but what you can do for bears. (razz)
    When one is in agreement with bears one is always correct. (mae)

    bears are back!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by All_Hail_The_Crimson_King View Post
    I think he is. Doesn't mean he is a carbon copy but I think Rolands old ka-tet go with him in new bodies through the years, because they were never really broken but have always been with him.
    (Even if I don't agree) I must say it's absolutely possible. I wish we could ask sai King.

    Roland would have understood.

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    I'm calling him up now...but since it's 3:13 a.m. here I doubt he'll be up..oops he's picking up, I'll tell him you guys said hello!
    "It's his eyes, Roland thought. They were wide and terrible, the eyes of a dragon in human form" - Roland seeing the Crimson King for the first time.

    "When the King comes and the Tower falls, sai, all such pretty things as yours will be broken. Then there will be darkness and nothing but the howl of Discordia and the cries of the can toi" - From Song of Susannah

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    The White! MonteGss is on a distinguished road MonteGss's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by All_Hail_The_Crimson_King View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Jean View Post
    fully agree with Nikolett about the difference between Eddie and Cuthbert
    Awhile ago you wanted me to post where I got the idea that Eddie was a reincarnation of Cuthbert...well there you go. I think he is. Doesn't mean he is a carbon copy but I think Rolands old ka-tet go with him in new bodies through the years, because they were never really broken but have always been with him.
    I can buy into this line of thinking. He always has the same ka-tet. I guess I'm not a fan of the word reincarnation. I personally think twin is more appropriate. But, like I said (see below), maybe those two words mean the same in the DT.

    King: "I saw Cuthbert, not you." A pause. "You and Cuthbert broke bread and scattered it beneath the gallows. That's in the part that's already written."
    Roland: "Aye, so we did. When Hax the cook swung. We were but lads. Did Bert tell you that tale?"
    But King did not answer this. "I saw Eddie. I saw him very well." A pause. "Cuthbert and Eddie are twins."
    This is the part that I am relying on most for my interpretation. It takes place the page before CK's quote. I can see reincarnation here but the DT saga has twins in it time and time again. Here we have it from King's own mouth (well, his character anyway). Maybe the concept of twins means reincarnation in the DT world...

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    I think on several layers of "worlds" certain people, and situations
    repeat or play over and over with Rolands loop. (they are "related" and dependent on eachother),and the choices they make , and ka.

    Maybe twinners being alive at the same time is something to think longer about....but the world has moved on and I dont believe in time anyway.....
    I'm at a loss as to how to say this without confusing you, as much as I am.


    If there are other worlds as alike as we've been shown then all things and possibilities are not only possible, but highly likely. I think this idea is close to what we are experiencing now on our own level of the tower.
    But to answer the question of Eddie, and Cuthbert...... Im fairly sure that the "2"( or more) katets are also repeated as nessasary to its conclusion.

    The answer is within

    all matter is energy, all energy is GOD

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    Quote Originally Posted by alinda View Post
    I think on several layers of "worlds" certain people, and situations
    repeat or play over and over with Rolands loop. (they are "related" and dependent on eachother),and the choices they make , and ka.

    Maybe twinners being alive at the same time is something to think longer about....but the world has moved on and I dont believe in time anyway.....
    I'm at a loss as to how to say this without confusing you, as much as I am.


    If there are other worlds as alike as we've been shown then all things and possibilities are not only possible, but highly likely. I think this idea is close to what we are experiencing now on our own level of the tower.
    But to answer the question of Eddie, and Cuthbert...... Im fairly sure that the "2"( or more) katets are also repeated as nessasary to its conclusion.
    Not confusing at all, thanks Linda. Interesting ideas.
    "It's his eyes, Roland thought. They were wide and terrible, the eyes of a dragon in human form" - Roland seeing the Crimson King for the first time.

    "When the King comes and the Tower falls, sai, all such pretty things as yours will be broken. Then there will be darkness and nothing but the howl of Discordia and the cries of the can toi" - From Song of Susannah

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    I wasn't confused either Linda. Great post!

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    Quote Originally Posted by MonteGss View Post
    This has been touched on in a number of threads a few times. I think minor arguments or large disagreements have started as well because of it.

    I'd like this thread to be used to discuss who you thought they were. For example, imo, Marten is a twinner of Walter. Also, I believe that Eddie is the twin of Cuthbert. For me, they aren't twinners (like Sloat and Morgan) because they are not living at the same time.

    Now some people think that Eddie is Cuthbert's reincarnation. I disagree and I think that it is a different occurrence entirely.


    So, I know we are getting into semi-existentialism and such but I thought this could be the place for it.
    What do you guys think? Also, why?

    Let the discussion begin!

    OK - Just my 2 coppers - for what they're worth:

    The concept of Twinners and twins as it relates to King's tales and thus the Dark Tower is pretty plain. Twinners exist simultaneously on different planes of existence/ worlds/ wheres. Some of them are able to migrate into those other worlds by hitch hiking onto/ into their "twinner" - a type of benign possession is how I believe Morgan described it. The exeption to that rule is those who are of a singular nature. They do not have twins on these other planes of existence - ie. Jack Sawyer and Roland (among others I am sure).

    In the case of Eddie - in fact let's expand this to include all of Roland's Ka-tet - I don't think that they are twinners, twins or even reincarnations of Cuthbert, Alain and Susan - but they are filling those roles for Roland. That goes I think to his power to Draw. Roland's period as a true gunslinger was that time between the exile to Mejis and Jericho Hill. In Mejis he had his 1st ka-tet and it was those he loved the best - so when it comes time for him to "draw" another ka-tet from the door on the beach - he is going to be drawn to people who have the capacity to play those roles. I believe that he always draws a different three - but they are always similar in character to those 1st three in Mejis.

    Marten/ Walter/ Flagg is a bit trickier because they were seemingly merged by King into one character in The Dark Tower. I have said before - though - that I think it entirely plausible they began as seperate entities. Let's look for a moment at the meaning of ka-tet: One from Many. That can also apply to demons - ie Legion. One demon composed of many. And this is a name that is used in connection with just about all of King's evil magicians. It begins with Flagg in the Stand and continues on with Linoge (duh) and others in King's books. I find it most telling to observe Flagg's power of being able to send his ka out into the night and into others - physically possessing them (ie Nadine) in a manner that is anything but benign. It is possible (and I say even plausible) that as each of the wizards sent against Roland were defeated - their physical and mystical being was obsorbed by the next. So Marten is consumed/ possessed by Walter who is in turn consumed by Flagg. The ka's (or spirits) of each remaining in the single host body - Legion.

    A quick summary of my take on it anyway.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Childe 007 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by MonteGss View Post
    This has been touched on in a number of threads a few times. I think minor arguments or large disagreements have started as well because of it.

    I'd like this thread to be used to discuss who you thought they were. For example, imo, Marten is a twinner of Walter. Also, I believe that Eddie is the twin of Cuthbert. For me, they aren't twinners (like Sloat and Morgan) because they are not living at the same time.

    Now some people think that Eddie is Cuthbert's reincarnation. I disagree and I think that it is a different occurrence entirely.


    So, I know we are getting into semi-existentialism and such but I thought this could be the place for it.
    What do you guys think? Also, why?

    Let the discussion begin!

    OK - Just my 2 coppers - for what they're worth:

    The concept of Twinners and twins as it relates to King's tales and thus the Dark Tower is pretty plain. Twinners exist simultaneously on different planes of existence/ worlds/ wheres. Some of them are able to migrate into those other worlds by hitch hiking onto/ into their "twinner" - a type of benign possession is how I believe Morgan described it. The exeption to that rule is those who are of a singular nature. They do not have twins on these other planes of existence - ie. Jack Sawyer and Roland (among others I am sure).

    In the case of Eddie - in fact let's expand this to include all of Roland's Ka-tet - I don't think that they are twinners, twins or even reincarnations of Cuthbert, Alain and Susan - but they are filling those roles for Roland. That goes I think to his power to Draw. Roland's period as a true gunslinger was that time between the exile to Mejis and Jericho Hill. In Mejis he had his 1st ka-tet and it was those he loved the best - so when it comes time for him to "draw" another ka-tet from the door on the beach - he is going to be drawn to people who have the capacity to play those roles. I believe that he always draws a different three - but they are always similar in character to those 1st three in Mejis.

    Marten/ Walter/ Flagg is a bit trickier because they were seemingly merged by King into one character in The Dark Tower. I have said before - though - that I think it entirely plausible they began as seperate entities. Let's look for a moment at the meaning of ka-tet: One from Many. That can also apply to demons - ie Legion. One demon composed of many. And this is a name that is used in connection with just about all of King's evil magicians. It begins with Flagg in the Stand and continues on with Linoge (duh) and others in King's books. I find it most telling to observe Flagg's power of being able to send his ka out into the night and into others - physically possessing them (ie Nadine) in a manner that is anything but benign. It is possible (and I say even plausible) that as each of the wizards sent against Roland were defeated - their physical and mystical being was obsorbed by the next. So Marten is consumed/ possessed by Walter who is in turn consumed by Flagg. The ka's (or spirits) of each remaining in the single host body - Legion.

    A quick summary of my take on it anyway.
    I'm not sure i agree with this . Although Eddie and Cuthbert are similar Susannah and Jake are not like Alain and Susan. They don't have much in common. I've always thought that ka chose the people Roland needed the most to fulfill his quest, not Roland himself, and that King left the meaning of Eddie and Cuthbert's similarites, (coincidence or not) ambiguous so that the reader could decide for him/herself..

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