I was completely unimpressed with The Dark Knight or Batman Begins......I much more enjoyed the first two Burton films.
Christopher Nolan
Steven Spielberg
I was completely unimpressed with The Dark Knight or Batman Begins......I much more enjoyed the first two Burton films.
Sloth Love Chunk
Slightly off topic feev, but you have to watch Stephen Graham's performance as Combo in This Is England to see a performance that matches the magnitude of Heath Ledger's performance as the Joker. To say "he plays a racist" doesn't do it justice: you get one of the most complex performances that you're ever going to see on film. One moment he could be in some crude way seem like a nice person to hang out with, one who's fair and apologises if he feels he's done wrong, but the next moment he could be ready to smash you to a pulp if you say the wrong thing. One truly amazing moment is you don't see him suddenly go from cool to being in a total rage: you actually see the rage slowly but surely building up in his eyes, and you know what's going to happen. To make that kind of emotional range totally believeable is a testament to Stephen Graham as an actor.Originally Posted by feverishparade
Sorry I just went off topic there, I just felt I should make the point that I truly believe there are amazing and varied performances out there to match and possibly outdo Ledger's portrayal as the Joker. Not saying that he wasn't one of the best ones out there, but there are other performances in film that can't be ignored.
Never be cruel and never be cowardly. And if you ever are, always make amends.
You are a walking talking Doctor Who encyclopedia to me. - Melike
Nolan
Only the gentle are ever really strong.
Nolan
Never be cruel and never be cowardly. And if you ever are, always make amends.
You are a walking talking Doctor Who encyclopedia to me. - Melike
Again, Spielberg is a good director but his films lack individuality. You can't credit a director for the writing in a movie he didn't write; you can only look at the direction. And Spielberg's direction isn't different or special, but he's always given credit for it. A lot of it has to do with the strength of the screenplays that he agrees to direct for.
Going back to my music analogy, there is a metalcore band from New Haven (where I'm from) called Hatebreed who have been playing together for about 10 years. Only recently have they gotten critical acclaim and have been recognized as a good metalcore band. However, there are dozens of other bands who have that generic Black Sabbath/Dio sound, so they are given the critical acclaim. Now, are these bands better than Hatebreed? No, they aren't. In most cases, they aren't anywhere near as good or technical as Hatebreed. But these bands got lucky and hit it big earlier than Hatebreed, so they get the attention.
It's the same way with directors: you either get lucky and hit it big or you don't. Spielberg got lucky and hit it big early on. My point is that there are dozens of other directors out there whose movies look and feel exactly the same as Spielberg but aren't given credit because they hit it big after him. You can't say the same of Nolan.
Going back to the Big Three: as you already said, Inception was written by him; The Prestige screenplay was written by him, although he got the inspiration from a short story his brother wrote; and Memento was based off a book but he wrote the screenplay himself with some editing done by his brother (the same one who wrote the short story before The Prestige). So yes, he did write all of his screenplays by himself. And, as such, his direction in the movies was that much better.
Hey, at least we can agree on this !
Finished The Dark Tower at 6:03AM on December 21, 2009.
The man in black fled across the desert,
and the gunslinger followed.
somehow, I didn't expect this...
More Nolan votes, anyone? This is much too close for comfort.Aww!Me too.somehow, I didn't expect this...
More Nolan votes, anyone? This is much too close for comfort.
Five or ten years from now Nolan might have enough great films to make a comparison, but for me he's just not there. I mean I've really enjoyed what films I've seen by him, but I do like a lot of Spielberg's too.
I have to agree with the comments on The Dark Knight being nothing more than a blockbuster. To me, it doesn't even come close to being art. You all know how I feel about it, I think, so I'll not get into it here, but really ... with the exception of Heath Ledger's performance, it's just a big loud movie.
The Man In Black Fled Across The Desert...
...And The Gunslinger Followed.
“I’m always on the Batman rule, sir.” - Kate Kane / Detective Comics 857
"It is the story, not he who tells it." Except to us collectors who have to put limits somewhere. - jhanic
Remember, Remember, The Fifth of November, The Gunpowder, Treason, and Plot.
Hear, hear!
And Batman Begins was a mess. Burton's Batmans were much much better, dark and gothic like they should be.
Spielberg, on the other hand, has made dozens of verifiable masterpieces. His name alone lends credibility to any project in most people's minds. Nolan, while a very good young director, is not there yet. It seems as though he may, as his career goes on, get to the level of the Spielbergs, Scorseses, Scotts, et al - but like I said, he's not there yet.
Vote Spielberg!
Uhh, I'm not giving any director writing credit when they don't deserve it ... you're the one that keeps bringing up the writing dude
The thing is that being a good writer does not necessarily make you a good director. Look at Shyamalan (who was labeled as 'the next Spielberg', ironically enough) - started off great, had a lot of ideas that he wrote down and transformed into films, but unfortunately those films bombed because he was not able to faithfully recreate the magic of the story in the written word into it's intended format, the visual medium. So he's presumably learning from his lesson now and only writing the scripts, and leaving the directorial duties in more capable hands. Being able to take a good script and transform it into a coherent, compelling sequence of images is part of what makes a good director, and Spielberg has that in spades.
Spielberg has a great artistic vision, and excellent story telling methods. Saying that the only reason his films have any sort of impact is because of the projects he chooses is like saying the only reason Nolan's Batman films are so well regarded are because Batman is a well established character, and not because of Nolan's abilities as a director.And Spielberg's direction isn't different or special, but he's always given credit for it. A lot of it has to do with the strength of the screenplays that he agrees to direct for.
Schindler's List is a very powerful film because it's a story that Spielberg wanted to tell , knew how he wanted to tell it, and was invested in it emotionally -presumably because of his heritage/lineage. The film wouldn't have been been half as memorable if any other director had taken the reigns. Same goes for Nolan and the Batman films. He was invested in the character and his origins, knew how he wanted to tell it, and set it out to do in precisely that method.
The fact that The Dark Knight resonated so strongly with so many groups of people is a strong indication that it's a genuine work of art. It's more than just a 'big loud movie', it's rich with subtext and touches on various themes that can be related to in a human way and is applicable to our every day world - obsession, duality, terrorism (and everything that this term encompasses), large scale cover ups, invasion of privacy, the blurry and often invisible line between good and evil, etc. To say that this film is nothing more than a blockbuster seems like willful naivety to me.
You mean, the same gothic world populated by lackeys that wear sunglasses and purple jackets , a villain that escapes on a 10 foot rubber ducky, or a flock of penguins marching down a street with missiles strapped to their back ?
What makes Nolan's Batman universe so unique is that he didn't create a world for these characters to exist, he made us believe that they could exist in our world.
Is there something wrong with that? Burton's Batmans were fun to watch. They were visually interesting. They had amazing scores, some of the best scores ever recorded, in my humble opinion. They worked precisely because they didn't take in our world. Making Batman realistic was an interesting touch, but for me Nolan's Batmans were not as exciting. Yes, Ledger's Joker was astonishing, but that's just a piece of the puzzle. Everything else was kinda a mess, again.You mean, the same gothic world populated by lackeys that wear sunglasses and purple jackets , a villain that escapes on a 10 foot rubber ducky, or a flock of penguins marching down a street with missiles strapped to their back ?
What makes Nolan's Batman universe so unique is that he didn't create a world for these characters to exist, he made us believe that they could exist in our world.
I'll pretend that this is a rhetorical question.Is there something wrong with that?You mean, the same gothic world populated by lackeys that wear sunglasses and purple jackets , a villain that escapes on a 10 foot rubber ducky, or a flock of penguins marching down a street with missiles strapped to their back ?
So were Nolan's.Burton's Batmans were fun to watch. They were visually interesting.
Yeah, Prince's happy go lucky song Trust went beautifully with Burton's dark, gothic worldThey had amazing scores, some of the best scores ever recorded, in my humble opinion.
The opposite is true for me. Grounding the Batman universe as close to reality as possible make them a more compelling set of films to watch than Burton's renditions.They worked precisely because they didn't take in our world. Making Batman realistic was an interesting touch, but for me Nolan's Batmans were not as exciting.
You keep saying "it's a mess, it's a mess". How is it a mess , exactly ?Yes, Ledger's Joker was astonishing, but that's just a piece of the puzzle. Everything else was kinda a mess, again.
I think Nolan's Batman films are the only legitimate adaptation of what made the comics so great.
I honestly was not interested at all by Burton's Batman.
Big town's got its losers, small town's got its vices...
Feev, I love and respect you, my friend, but we will have to agree to disagree on The Dark Knight. We see it in very different lights and textures.
The Man In Black Fled Across The Desert...
...And The Gunslinger Followed.
“I’m always on the Batman rule, sir.” - Kate Kane / Detective Comics 857
"It is the story, not he who tells it." Except to us collectors who have to put limits somewhere. - jhanic
Ditto.
I'd rather not get into this Burton vs. Nolan discussion. It's all subjective, isn't it? To me, Burton's style spoke a lot more than did Nolan's. Yes, even the Prince songs. In fact, thanks for reminding me, I'll put the Prince album on nowBut I meant Elfman's scores.
Fair enough
Also, the Batman soundtrack LP can clearly come in useful, especially when you need weapons to use against zombies!
Never be cruel and never be cowardly. And if you ever are, always make amends.
You are a walking talking Doctor Who encyclopedia to me. - Melike
Big town's got its losers, small town's got its vices...
I can see where my argument might be a bit confusing; I'm not always the best at articulating everything as we've found outUhh, I'm not giving any director writing credit when they don't deserve it ... you're the one that keeps bringing up the writing dude
What I'm trying to say is that you shouldn't judge an entire film by Spielberg (say Jurassic Park or Schindler's List) against an entire film by Nolan. Someone may have enjoyed Spielberg movies more than Nolan movies, but that doesn't make Spielberg a better director. A lot of what I've been seeing in these threads are people voting for their favorite movies without actually taking into account the jobs/responsibilities the directors held over the film. It's the prerogative of the voter to choose the person they feel is the winner, but the discussions seem to go a bit off-topic and end up discussing film generalizations and not director specifics (which I, too, have been guilty of thus far and probably later in this same post).
I'm not saying that his films only have impact because of the script. What I was saying was that the only reason Spielberg is given more credit than other directors of the same style is because of the films he has signed on to. You can't find a director with the same style as Nolan, but Spielberg-esque directors are a dime-a-dozen. The only difference between Spielberg and the Spielberg-esque directors are the notoriety, which comes from being put on big-budget blockbuster films. By no means am I diminishing Spielberg's abilities as a director; I'm trying to elevate Nolan to a level close to (or, dare I say, above) Spielberg because he is unique, talented, and has not been given the notoriety he deserves for his individualism.
But that's my point: Spielberg's style of direction is generic. He was emotionally invested in it, sure, but that doesn't change the fact that dozens of other novice directors have the exact same style and directorial habits as he does. Granted, the acting was superb; I'm not sure any other director could have gotten such a realistic performance out of his cast in that aspect.
I would put it on a lower level than the Big Three, but I certainly agree with you that The Dark Knight can be likened to a work of art. The direction is obviously what we should be discussing, not the movies in their entirety, and the direction of The Dark Knight is nearly flawless. I never saw a single camera shot/angle, lighting decision, costume choice, or prop/setting choice that didn't fully immerse me in the film.
I couldn't agree more with you on this one, feev. I loved how he was able to bring all of the characters in with a sense of "reality" into a world we already knew and could empathize with. As I've said, Ledger's portrayal of the Joker stuck with me because of the realism I felt emanating from the character.
Finished The Dark Tower at 6:03AM on December 21, 2009.
The man in black fled across the desert,
and the gunslinger followed.
Our posts are getting so long, feev!
Finished The Dark Tower at 6:03AM on December 21, 2009.
The man in black fled across the desert,
and the gunslinger followed.
This.
Ask not what bears can do for you, but what you can do for bears. (razz)
When one is in agreement with bears one is always correct. (mae)
bears are back!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
This is precisely why I prefer Burton's Batman films. I prefer movies with graphic heritage to look that way. I want to be immersed in the fantasy. I want the villains to be larger than life, and the heroes even greater. I don't want Batman to be the guy that lives around the block. And, as far as the gothic appeal of Burton's Batman, I think that this is referring to the gothic appeal of most of his movies. From the color schemes of his cinematography (the drab blues, purple and other dark colors of so many of his movies), the architecture of his buildings, the fact that it was almost perpetually night in the movies, the music. It FELT like a comic book (excuse me graphic novel) which is what I WANT from this type of movie.Is there something wrong with that? Burton's Batmans were fun to watch. They were visually interesting. They had amazing scores, some of the best scores ever recorded, in my humble opinion. They worked precisely because they didn't take in our world. Making Batman realistic was an interesting touch, but for me Nolan's Batmans were not as exciting. Yes, Ledger's Joker was astonishing, but that's just a piece of the puzzle. Everything else was kinda a mess, again.You mean, the same gothic world populated by lackeys that wear sunglasses and purple jackets , a villain that escapes on a 10 foot rubber ducky, or a flock of penguins marching down a street with missiles strapped to their back ?
What makes Nolan's Batman universe so unique is that he didn't create a world for these characters to exist, he made us believe that they could exist in our world.
Sloth Love Chunk
Well, inevitably it seems best almost always degrades to favorite in these things.This.
Oh snaps, we're tied !
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