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Thread: The Walking Dead *TV Spoilers!*

  1. #3076
    Going Slap Happy Mattrick is a name known to all Mattrick is a name known to all Mattrick is a name known to all Mattrick is a name known to all Mattrick is a name known to all Mattrick is a name known to all Mattrick's Avatar

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    Rick and Co have done far worse things than The Saviors, who, up until the conflict actually started, killed 6 (Denise, Abe, Glenn, Spencer, Olivia, Benjamin) people. In the same time frame, Rick not only stormed their compound for their own benefit (basically taking over The Saviors deal with Hilltop) and began murdering them in their sleep, and then Carol lured some in and burned them alive, and then she killed another five or six of them, all in all upwards of 30 people. All in all, Rick and Co have ZERO moral superiority over The Saviors. Keeping the prisoners is part of them coming out of this not just as victors, but having done it without becoming The Saviors. And now you know Jesus since this action defines his character. He doesn't want anymore people to die than have to die, and he knows you can't just win in this conflict, you have to win like the good guys. What's funny is when he said to Morgan "Once this is over, once we've won. Those who are left over, we have to live with them", is actually what Negan tells ol Rapey Dave in the comics before he kills him. By your own logic, Negan should have killed every single person in the line up, then should have went into Alexandria and burned it and everyone alive, for all the bad things Rick and Co did to his people, so they wouldn't retaliate like they are right now.

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  2. #3077
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    The issue of enslavement is not addressed in the above. Negan and all his followers have used forceful and deadly actions to enslave these communities. The reason Negan lets people live is not because he has good intentions it is because he wants their shit and he wants them to continue providing their shit to him. They can't do that if they are dead.

    The killing of Saviors is the only option unless these communities want to give up their homes and move.
    Move along. Nothing to see here.

  3. #3078
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mattrick View Post
    Rick and Co have done far worse things than The Saviors, who, up until the conflict actually started, killed 6 (Denise, Abe, Glenn, Spencer, Olivia, Benjamin) people. In the same time frame, Rick not only stormed their compound for their own benefit (basically taking over The Saviors deal with Hilltop) and began murdering them in their sleep, and then Carol lured some in and burned them alive, and then she killed another five or six of them, all in all upwards of 30 people. All in all, Rick and Co have ZERO moral superiority over The Saviors. Keeping the prisoners is part of them coming out of this not just as victors, but having done it without becoming The Saviors. And now you know Jesus since this action defines his character. He doesn't want anymore people to die than have to die, and he knows you can't just win in this conflict, you have to win like the good guys. What's funny is when he said to Morgan "Once this is over, once we've won. Those who are left over, we have to live with them", is actually what Negan tells ol Rapey Dave in the comics before he kills him. By your own logic, Negan should have killed every single person in the line up, then should have went into Alexandria and burned it and everyone alive, for all the bad things Rick and Co did to his people, so they wouldn't retaliate like they are right now.
    Yes, that's exactly my point. If I were the Saviors, I would have murdered every single one of them. If you leave one, even just one person alive, they will come back and try to murder you. We're seeing that now. Negan fucked up, he should have bashed all of their heads in.

    It's all relative.

  4. #3079
    Fundraiser Emeritus Merlin1958 has a reputation beyond repute Merlin1958 has a reputation beyond repute Merlin1958 has a reputation beyond repute Merlin1958 has a reputation beyond repute Merlin1958 has a reputation beyond repute Merlin1958 has a reputation beyond repute Merlin1958 has a reputation beyond repute Merlin1958 has a reputation beyond repute Merlin1958 has a reputation beyond repute Merlin1958 has a reputation beyond repute Merlin1958 has a reputation beyond repute Merlin1958's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by Still Servant View Post
    Gabriel is working with Negan. Book it.

    Really? You think they would pull that BS with Gabriel again?


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  5. #3080
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ben Staad View Post
    The issue of enslavement is not addressed in the above. Negan and all his followers have used forceful and deadly actions to enslave these communities. The reason Negan lets people live is not because he has good intentions it is because he wants their shit and he wants them to continue providing their shit to him. They can't do that if they are dead.

    The killing of Saviors is the only option unless these communities want to give up their homes and move.
    Negan and Rick have almost the exact same goals though. They just aim for the same end with different means. Negan's goal is to keep his people alive and use a system of communities to bring back civilization, which he why he calls themselves The Saviors. Rick wants to keep his people alive and use a system of communities to bring back civilization. It's hard to say enslavement is any worse than Rick choosing to exterminate a group of strangers to get half of another community's stuff. It's less a battle of good vs. evil and a battle of two differing ideologies/political systems.

    Mike, glad you feel that way. I totally agree with you. Your post just sounded like many "The Saviors should all be killed because they're evil and Rick is good" posts I've read on the internet a lot. These people can't even see that Rick has done evil or bad things LOL.

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  6. #3081
    Iím not a clown Ben Staad has a brilliant future Ben Staad has a brilliant future Ben Staad has a brilliant future Ben Staad has a brilliant future Ben Staad has a brilliant future Ben Staad has a brilliant future Ben Staad has a brilliant future Ben Staad has a brilliant future Ben Staad has a brilliant future Ben Staad has a brilliant future Ben Staad has a brilliant future Ben Staad's Avatar

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    There are some marked differences between the two ideas of civilization and society goals between the two groups. The line does become blurred as Ricks group did use force to obtain the guns from Oceanside however they did not forcibly compel them to join or produce (beyond the guns) for Ricks idea of society. Still awful business stealing from one group to "feed" another groups needs.

    I disagree that Negans primary goal is to keep people alive. His primary goal is to keep people alive up until the point they stop producing for his needs and idea of society.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mattrick View Post

    Negan and Rick have almost the exact same goals though. They just aim for the same end with different means. Negan's goal is to keep his people alive and use a system of communities to bring back civilization, which he why he calls themselves The Saviors. Rick wants to keep his people alive and use a system of communities to bring back civilization. It's hard to say enslavement is any worse than Rick choosing to exterminate a group of strangers to get half of another community's stuff. It's less a battle of good vs. evil and a battle of two differing ideologies/political systems.

    Mike, glad you feel that way. I totally agree with you. Your post just sounded like many "The Saviors should all be killed because they're evil and Rick is good" posts I've read on the internet a lot. These people can't even see that Rick has done evil or bad things LOL.
    Move along. Nothing to see here.

  7. #3082
    Some doors cant be closed Still Servant is a splendid one to behold Still Servant is a splendid one to behold Still Servant is a splendid one to behold Still Servant is a splendid one to behold Still Servant is a splendid one to behold Still Servant is a splendid one to behold Still Servant is a splendid one to behold Still Servant's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by Merlin1958 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Still Servant View Post
    Gabriel is working with Negan. Book it.

    Really? You think they would pull that BS with Gabriel again?
    Yes. Yes, I do.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mattrick View Post

    Mike, glad you feel that way. I totally agree with you. Your post just sounded like many "The Saviors should all be killed because they're evil and Rick is good" posts I've read on the internet a lot. These people can't even see that Rick has done evil or bad things LOL.
    It's all relative. In the Revolutionary War, American citizens were called rebels. They worked in small groups and employed gorilla-like tactics to engage an enemy from another country. Today, they are championed as patriotic heroes.

    Now, fast forward. In Afghanistan, we've been fighting rebels who work in small groups and engage in gorilla-like tactics. If you take it from the perspective from a person living in Afghanistan, we are the ones coming into their country trying to control things. Now, we know there's a lot more that goes into it, but from the perspective of someone living that life who may not have all the information, you can certainly draw the parallels. Again, it's all relative.

  8. #3083
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ben Staad View Post

    I disagree that Negans primary goal is to keep people alive. His primary goal is to keep people alive up until the point they stop producing for his needs and idea of society.
    You'll learn more of Negan's philosophy as the show goes on. But he became who he did solely to keep people alive because he felt everyone was so weak they were essentially killing themselves. Over time, things got fucked up and he started doing really fucked up things, but his goals were definitely not evil from the get go. He's kind of the opposite of The Governor who had a facade of a nice leader but was really a crazy, murderous fuck in that he's got a facade of being a crazy, murderous fuck but beneath that he's intentions are good (of course, we know the line about bad things coming from good intentions). He could have easily killed all of Rick's people, but he didn't. He sees enough value in life to not want to kill people needlessly. His tactics are to rule with fear so he doesn't have to kill a bunch of people/everyone. Negan rules through a dictatorship, but Rick even once said their group was now a dictatorship led by him...different context. But that's what I like so much about the Negan/Rick dynamic...it's all so morally grey, neither are saints, both have done horrible things, both have brutally murdered to protect their own people, both have similar goals, and they bring the best and worst out of each other.

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  9. #3084
    Some doors cant be closed Still Servant is a splendid one to behold Still Servant is a splendid one to behold Still Servant is a splendid one to behold Still Servant is a splendid one to behold Still Servant is a splendid one to behold Still Servant is a splendid one to behold Still Servant is a splendid one to behold Still Servant's Avatar

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    I want to learn more about Negan before the world went to shit. I'd like to learn more about a lot of these people. One of my biggest problems with the show in recent years is that some of the characters seem like they materialized out of thin air as zombie killing machines.

    We have to remember that these were normal people. They had normal jobs. As for Negan and his crew, they weren't always wise-cracking, quick-witted villains.

  10. #3085
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    I agree. That's one reason why I liked the savior Gavin (the guy Ezekiel was dealing with) because he definitely lends some humanity to The Saviors, erring on the side of caution, looking for peaceful resolutions, only going to a route of violence because he absolutely has to. There are rumours we're getting some Negan backstory tomorrow as Negan has a long conversation with Father Gabriel. I haven't read the Here's Negan comic yet, and I don't want to spoil what I know of how he became Negan as we know him after the apocalypse, but as for what he did, he was a High School Gym Teacher. I don't think their jobs are necessarily that important (unless it's something ultra specific like doctor or engineer or something) because not every job will lend particular insight. But what made The Governor compelling is we had Milton to tell us that he wasn't always like this, that he was just a normal guy who had a wife and a daughter, but he went absolutely crazy. I think a lack of a character like that, to tell the audience who they were, can hurt...but we're also a few years into the apocalypse now and such people would naturally be harder to come by.

    It's hard to talk about Negan and his backstory and when and how it should come up with spoilers.

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