Yes
No
This is America and I'll say whatever I want.
So you expect the dialogue in the movie to have absolutely no change from the book? Every single word MUST be presented exactly as it originally appeared in the book? With NO change, at all, right?
Because if you don't agree with that, then you are basically a hypocrite. Because that's ALL color is - a line of dialogue in a script. In fact, less than that, because dialogue is actually spoken and the audience has to react to it - color, you just have to look at, not even DO anything.
What "fundamental change?" HOW and WHEN and WHY does his color have anything to do with the story? If you can answer that question (spoiler: you can't) then I would agree with you.
It's not "FUNDAMENTAL!!!!" - it's irrelevant - it's a story about magic, and just like real dwarves didn't play Thorin and Gimli, we don't need a white guy to play Roland. Give him blue contact lenses and you have your beloved blue eyes.
I didn't call anybody racist - if you think I did, then you see something in your own heart.
I didn't call you racist - you're being offended because you are annoyed you're being challenged.
Changing Roland's color doesn't change his character AT ALL - not even a little bit. He's a dark-skinned gunslinger instead of a light-skinned gunslinger - if that tiny change affects your enjoyment of the movie and the story, what does that say about you? I'm just asking.
How is it "dramatic?" Seriously - what's dramatic about black or white? If it was Martin Lawrence, yeah, bad actor for the role - if it was Daniel Radcliffe, yeah, bad actor for the role. Color? Your perception of the world is THAT literally skin deep? That's ALL you see? Elba couldn't act his way into the character?
Mind you - were talking a POTENTIAL change and this is how offended people get? And it hasn't even happened? And probably won't happen (because if they make Roland black, then Odetta's got to be white - because God forbid they have TWO black leading actors, and changing Odetta's race would actually change the story in a more significant way).
Why would it matter if I was black or white? Maybe I'm Indonesian, maybe I'm Korean. What difference does it make? I would only be interested in this discussion if I was black? Why?
I'm not missing your point - but your point doesn't matter. It's not 1965, and King's brief flash of inspiration 50 years ago has nothing to do with how Roland has to be presented in 2016. Were you upset when the ending to The Mist was changed, or the ending of The Shining? Maybe you were moderately irked, but I doubt you cared that much - it was a creative choice.
Reading people's reactions here, I'm surprised anybody would ever go see a Stephen King movie at all - since literally ALL of them have changed the stories in pivotal ways....in ways a LOT more dramatic than if a guy was black or white. This "caboose" is actually a great example, because the color of THIS specific character doesn't matter at all - you couldn't find a place in the story where his position as a white man actually affected the narrative one way or the other. He's above race, in the sense that it's not a romance, or a story about his personal life - it's a guy on a quest with his friends.
Race isn't "in the past" - the fact that people cared about this issue, and then were immediate to defend themselves by calling ME a "race-baiter" (when I didn't start the debate) is proof it's not in the past at all.
White people have been cozy and comfortable to see their worldview presented their way - and look what happens when even the SUGGESTION of changing that worldview is made. Even your friends who you grew up, I'm sure you liked them, but why can't they have a hero who looks like them? Because Stephen King saw a movie one time 50 years ago? That's it? That's what you got?
It's not going to be Clint Eastwood - that's not going to happen. So now we have to be stuck with somebody who LOOKS LIKE Clint Eastwood? The inspiration already can't be used - so why would the original inspiration matter anymore. Since it won't be Clint, that inspiration is already irrelevant.
Oh Man! You really are awesome. The gift that keeps on giving.
First up, I said that you inferred that people were racist - as you have clearly done yet again in your last line.
I would say that making a character described as Roland is time and again in the books to be the complete opposite of that is pretty much a fundamental change.
Aside from this allow me if you will to get specific for a second. Gilead, as we know it to be, is based upon the fuedal and knightly society of Ye Olde England with Roland being a direct descendant of Arthur Eld (being King Arthur) - like it or not (and I've got a pretty good idea that you won't) this would mean that Roland's bloodline is of a White heritage. THAT is why, for the purposes of the story it matters what colour Roland is. He is the last of his line. This is also HOW his colour has anything to do with it and also WHEN.
Of course, Stephen King has said that he himself doesn't care what colour Roland is in the films so neither should we except for the fact that we all have our personal preferences and mine would be for the characters to stay as close to as described in the books. There is a reason why Odetta is the colour that she is, it is part of her inherent characterisation and story trait, same for Jake, same for Eddie.
If Roland will be black, I will still go watch the movie and try to enjoy it.
I also try not to think too much about what has and not be changed compared to an original book, but more try to see if the entire thing holds itself and entertain me.
Look at the bright side : one could still go and read the books after seeing the movie, AND create his own pictures in his head!
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It would matter for Odetta and Eddie as her character is fundamentally based on her race and Eddie being white and in a relationship with her also has a bearing on the story. It wouldn't matter at all if Jake was another race.
I am going to agree with Rahfa on the fact that there is little to no difference to the story if Roland is black. The line of Eld being the line of King Arthur is not really all that important and they could certainly have the royal line be one of color in this fictitious universe. From a straight up story perspective it will require little to know changes. Most people are hung up on the description alone.
When they do the Stand or even IT there will likely be numerous changes to sets and story to make them more relevant to modern day vs the 80's and my guess is that everyone would be totally OK with those changes even thought that is not how it was originally described. I don't think anyone is racist but I do believe that most people are very very attached to King's description of his main character.
You just can't read, but that's not my problem. If I called you a racist, you'd know it.
"The complete opposite." So like I said - ALL that matters to you about Roland is his skin color - because you haven't seen Idris Elba ACT as Roland, so you can't say "'HE'S THE EXACT OPPOSITE!!!!" because there is no opposite - he's a light-skinned gunslinger, he's a dark-skinned gunslinger...there is no "opposite." There's a character who looks one way or the other, and it doesn't make any difference to the narrative.
Gilead is a mythology where people look like all sorts of things - I'm not sure what "white" heritage has to do with anything when you're talking about fantasies and fairy tales. But again, if that defense is what you're hanging your hat on, then I expect you to be protesting in the streets if a non-British actor plays him. In fact, I guess the actor needs to be in the royal blood line, otherwise how can we possibly suspend disbelief?
You see only color, apparently - and it's hamstrung your ability to see anything else, or even entertain other possibilities without being defensive. I'm not saying that makes you racist, but it means race matters quite a lot to you. I think that's interesting.
And again - I don't care if Elba's cast or not...I don't think he will be. But if ALL you see is the race of the actor - when EVERY filmed King story has been changed in pivotal ways - then that's absolutely shallow. If you don't see that, I don't know what to tell you.
In fact, it's certainly possible that different members of the royal blood line be of different color, since that's how genetics works - Strom Thurmond fathered a child with a black mother, after all, and she's a granddaughter in HIS bloodline...so if generations before in Gilead, one white knight had an affair with a black court maiden, well there you go - welcome to the world, Baby Roland.
As I said - it's all about imagination...and if people can't get past skin color, that's a lack of imagination. Racist, no. Lazy?
I think they use him exactly for that. Just to create a controversy. Just promo for the movie.
I've sad eight ones, and say it again. They can take Kevin James , Orlando Bloom, Or Rihanna - if they make a movie. As I don't believe that they actually do it as long as I can't buy any tickets.
To announce A black Roland , was a move and I do not believe that he will be it at the end, if they make that move
You most definitely implied racist or bigoted motivations to those who disagree with you.
This whole discussion is hypothetical. It's absurd that anyone is offended or annoyed.
Even when a person's viewpoint is explained to you, you continue to harp about race and color. On the one hand you are justifiably upset (IMHO) about whitewashing and on the other you are strangely defending blackwashing. You state that as long as the character is fictional you are fine with any actor. However the majority of your posts belie that sentiment.
As for me it has nothing to do with race, color, ethnicity, nationality or any of the other strawman arguments that you have made. It has to do with a story that I have taken to heart for 30 years. I would like to see it as faithfully represented as possible.
"One day you're going to figure out that everything they taught you was a lie."
Roland is slightly built, with long thin hair. Elba is a BIG bloke, in stature, mannerisms. A bull to Roland's antelope.
Anyway this whole conversation is ludicrous as is your desire to play the race card. I certainly haven't said that I didn't like Elba for the role because he's black. He just isn't Roland how he is described in the book. He's damn fine actor (and being from the UK we've been privileged to have him on our screens for a long while) he just isn't Roland.
It's akin to casting Tom Hiddleston as Kingpin - a great actor but completely wrong for the role
I most certainly did not - if you took it that way, I can't be responsible for your intepretation. I think it's interesting that people care - I think it's funny that people made the skin color the hill they wanted to die on.
And yet right from the start I was immediately accused of "race-baiting." Interesting. Not racist. Interesting.
There is no "blackwashing." I made the point crystal clear - if the race matters to the story, then use that race for the actor. This isn't that example. Odetta is a black character and her race actually matters to the story that King wrote. Roland's race doesn't matter. Jake's race doesn't matter. Eddie's race does matter, because of his relationship to Odetta (as was pointed out) - having them both the same race would change the actual narrative of the story. Again, Roland's skin color has nothing to do with the story. In "Touch of Evil," Charlton Heston plays a Mexican - does it matter that a white actor played him? Not really - we could easily suspend disbelief...and in that story's case, his Mexican identity still was important. If "Devil in a Blue Dress" happened with a white actor playing Denzel Washington's private eye, then it changes the whole story - it's a black character on the fringes of white society.
I'm really surprised you don't understand the difference.
You don't WANT it to be about race, but people MADE it about race. If you didn't want it to be about race you would see human beings as human beings and that would be the end of it. Roland's skin color does not change the story so it's as faithfully represented with the dialogue and actions.
It's not a strawman argument - it's a real argument. People complained about the mere possibility of a black actor playing a "white" character, and they thought they could have their little circle jerk and people would agree what a terrible choice it was to the "honor" of the story - but everybody doesn't agree and I think getting wrapped up in skin color of a fictional movie character is disgusting.
I don't even think it will be Elba - I think he's one of many "hot" actors who get floated around, probably by his agent to boost his stock ("look, he was being considered for this franchise! Don't you want him too!"), and it will end up being Russell Crowe (ugh) or Jackman (ugh II). I like Elba because it would be different (and you could argue that IS change for change sake, and I guess you'd be right...but I'd still like to see an unexpected take),.
There is no "blackwashing." Point out five examples where a famous white character was changed to a different race and I'll match you 5-to-1.
Did I outright call anybody racist? I did not. If you "infer," as I've said, that says something about what your inner voice is telling you about your beliefs. I'm not in your heart. I dunno. Racist? No. Interesting? Yup.
I don't like Elba for the role of Roland because he's Black. Everyone says he's a great actor and I believe it. But luckily we don't have to pick between a great Black actor vs. a bad White actor. There are enough actors to pick a great actor who's ethnic background doesn't change the whole story.
That's completely valid - I don't see Roland that way, personally (and I don't think Clint Eastwood is slightly built, if that's the inspiration), but that's just a diference of our perception...but you could argue that his long hair is important to the 'personality' of the character. Okay.
You blew in here huffing and puffing like Piggly Wiggly about how I was "RACE BAITING!!!!" and playing the "RACE CARD!!!!" I didn't start the argument - other people brought up the point first, not me. But like I said, I didn't start shit, but I'm here now and I will be talking at the end.
I agree. I think Vincent D'Onofrio is a good Kingpin...and let's say I argued that the late Michael Clarke Duncan would be a good Kingpin - ("He's big and bald!") - I think I'd be wrong, because despite his size he doesn't have the undercurrent of dark menace that Kingpin requires....so how about Ving Rhames? Would you REALLY care if Ving Rhames played the Kingpin? It doesn't matter that he was a white guy in the comics - basically he's a big, dignified criminal overlord. But given the choices, they made the right call with D'Onofrio.
And I didn't like Samuel Jackson as Nick Fury...he's too slick. He doesn't have Fury's gruff mannerisms that I always associated him with. But does it matter that he's black? Becuase it doesn't affect the Marvel movies storylines.
I didn't play the race card - it was already being played at the little circle jerk of a poker game, and people didn't realize they were playing in a wide open room.
How would any part of his ethnic background (in this case, he's from GILEAD - he's NOT AMERICAN, so there is NO "ethnic background") affect the story? Forget "change," it would not even affect the story unless you want it too, unless you are incapable of seeing how a knight of Gilead might have dark skin. There were Moorish knights in real life.
Yes, there are always enough white actors to fit conventional white parts - because God forfend we ever get a different take on anything. Oh noes, whatever will we do?
It would change the whole story. Why do we need a different take on The Dark Tower before the movie comes out? The goal should be to stick to the source material and see if we can get people to start reading the books we love so much. Race is part of the subject matter in DT. To be honest, I don't think the World is ready for DT films. But I don't want a movie to come out that's so different from the books that I'm going around telling everyone "no, but you gotta read the books, they're different from the movie." That's crap, let's put the books on the screen and see what people think!
What part of the story would it change? Give me an example.
How is it "different from the book" because a character is dark-skinned? Are you thinking the reader paid THAT much attention to when he got called "white" on page 95? "So much different" -in WHAT way does Roland's skin color affect the events of the story?
Does he get treated differently by the crab chopping off his hand? Did the mutants say "if only you were a black guy, we wouldn't attack you." Did Jake say "if you were a scary black man, I would have run the other way."
Seriously - you got eight books to work with, so find me any part where Roland's "white identity" affects the actual narrative of the story from Roland's perspective - not a physical description, but an actual event. Show me that the story would be "so much different" with a dark-skinned character vs.a light-skinned character.
If what you're saying is that the movie won't be as "accessible" to your friends with a hero that doesn't look like them, that's something else entirely. Is that what you're saying?
I submit this entire 3 to 4 pages of discussion as evidence that it would change the whole story. You seem to be arguing that I'm a bad person if I feel that way and that if I was a good person it wouldn't be an issue (is that what you're saying?). But that argument is invalid. I'm a good person and it would change the whole story.
Once again, it is not about any one instance where the color of his skin mattered.
Some of us wish for the films to stick as close to the source material as possible. That's it.
Because of the way he was written in the stories. Because of the countless art / renditions (in the novels and in the graphic novels/comics) where Roland has been portrayed a certain way, we wish for Roland to be portrayed by an actor who approximates that description.
Again, this is not an issue of race, ethnicity or nationality.
I don't know how many different ways I can convey this.
Btw, I'm Hispanic. I'm as brown as they come. Please stop with this "you want to see someone who likes you" shit.
I've heard a lot of people saying they hope Roland has the horn with him at the beginning of the movie and that it's the next iteration. To me, that's a more significant change than anything else, because i means anything at all could happen. Anything.
Author of The Road to the Dark Tower, Stephen King: A Complete Exploration of His Work, Life, and Influences and The Dark Tower Companion. Co-editor with Stephen King of the anthology Flight or Fright.
Ah - so you couldn't come up with one, so you'll just try to change the debate.
No - I asked for one example, and you can't give me an example - because there isn't an example. It doesn't matter.
Do I even care if Elba is the actor? Not especially - but I think it's funny that a skin-deep interpretation of the character is SO important - it's shallow and absurd. Just because some comic book artists interpreted a character one way does not mean that every other artist in perpetuity must use that same interpretation...that's ridiculous. Comforting and stable and conservative, yeah, sure, but shallow and absurd and ridiculous.
Did Alan Alda have the same mannerisms as Donald Sutherland to play the same character in MASH? I don't think so, but it worked out okay, so there are always subtle differences. People get wrapped up in something as meaningless as skin color (at least in a role like this one), and then calls anybody who calls them out on the shallowness a "race-baiter." Hilarious.
Just because you don't want it to be an issue of race, ethnicity or nationality (which is also hysterical because we're talking about a 'citizen' of Gilead), doesn't mean other people didn't make that choice - maybe not you, but others. For the umpteenth time, I didn't make that choice. Sorry to put a cloud on the little henfest.
Yeah, I just want to see the books on the screen. Everything matters, every detail. If I give you an example where his skin color "matters" (something that has been discussed here extensively) then I could be attacked for saying it matters. I want to see the Dark Tower not the Dark-skinned Tower in Universe A-Prime, Multiverse B or any other Dark Tower. If they're gonna do it they have to treat the books as the script.