The Waystation Scene *Possible spoilers for the series within*

This is one of my favorite parts of the book and the series, and I'd like to get your feedback on something Walter O'Dim says -

Callahan - "You're cruel!" he bursts out.
Walter's eyes widen, and for a moment he looks deeply hurt. This may be absurd, but Callahan is looking into the man's deep eyes and feels sure the emotion is nonetheless genuine. And the surety robs him of any last hope that all this might be a dream, or a final brilliant interval before true death. In dreams-his, at least, the bad guys, the scary guys, never have complex emotions.
"I am what ka and the King and the Tower have made me. We all are. We're caught."

Very interesting insight into Walter and into how he views things. Thoughts?

Im finding it hard to really understand what walter is getting at in this scene, i always found it very confuising.

Shed some light on it sai?

I suppose he might be saying soemthing like he's not a stereotype, he's real life. He is what he is and he's what he was made to be by the tower and by ka. He's saying that everything that happens is meant to and that "We're caught", as in caught in the net that is ka, or destiny. everything happens for a reason and it happens no matter what we do. we cannot avoid it.

it's like this movie i saw called the Time Machine (great movie). In the beginning a man is so in love with this girl and he takes her skating. A man robs them and kills her. he builds a time machine and goes back and tries to save her. He brings her to a flower sop instead of the skating pond and leaves her across the street while he goes to buy her some roses. He hears a screeching of tires and turns around to find her dead, hit by a car, at the same moment the man killed her in the previous scenario. this happens a few times and she is always killed at the same moment.

what I'm getting at is that he tried to change what was meant to happen and couldnt. No matter what, she was meant to die, and no matter what, she died.

Dualisms permeate the DT series. There is always a little good in the evil characters and a little evil in the good ones- the ying and yang if you kennit. Its what makes King's villains so effective, they aren't that far removed from tendencies we ourselves have. We have gone over and over in other threads about the complexities of his villains, but this is my take. Walter is definitely my favorite incarnation or twin (whatever the fuck he is Monte) of Flagg. Ka itself, is dualistic, at least in my view as I have expressed elsewhere. The Dark Tower is such an effective cosmological symbol for this reason. Great quote CK.

You won't believe this Matthew but I was planning to open absolutely the same thread with that quote of Walter but I didn't know how to start it.

I think it's a very good and interesting moment of Walter but it's weak as well... he says that it is not his responsibility it wasn't his choice... he is just a victim in fact. It's interesting to see that he thinks this way because I am sure most of the people think the same way about their lives and faults they have done but I cannot agree.
I am sure if someone has a damn hard life it's even much harder to find or to go on the right path but it's not impossible at all. I know people with nightmarish childhoods and they could become good people.

Sorry Walter, I am not buying this but I can understand you.

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Originally Posted by obscurejude

Dualisms permeate the DT series. There is always a little good in the evil characters and a little evil in the good ones- the ying and yang if you kennit. ... Ka itself, is dualistic, at least in my view as I have expressed elsewhere. The Dark Tower is such an effective cosmological symbol for this reason. Great quote CK.

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thanks Ryan, now I don't have to type as much as you put it very close to how I would have. Dualism permeates everything.

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Originally Posted by Letti

I think it's a very good and interesting moment of Walter but it's weak as well... he says it is not his responsibility it wasn't his choice... he is just a victim in fact. It's interesting to see that he thinks this way because I am sure most of the people think the same way about their lives and faults they have done but I cannot agree.
I am sure if someone has a damn hard life it's even much harder to find or to go on the right path but it's not impossible at all. I know people with nightmarish childhoods and they could become good people.

Sorry Walter, I am not buying this but I can understand you.

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Very interesting perspective on this quote of Walter's Letti.. :harrier:

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Originally Posted by obscurejude

Dualisms permeate the DT series. There is always a little good in the evil characters and a little evil in the good ones- the ying and yang if you kennit. Its what makes King's villains so effective, they aren't that far removed from tendencies we ourselves have.

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Also, some very good points. Especially about the "dualism".

The fact he felt guilt and reacts that way to Callahan's accusation is interesting, and definitely humanizes him somewhat, and indeed show he has some good in him. Yet ironically, by blaming ka, and the King (and I'm not clear here if he meant the Crimson King or

Spoiler:

The Author of whom he was certainly aware

) he is making excuses for himself, as Letti said. Certainly a negative trait, yet again a very human one.

On reading the blurb concerning the Last book The Dark Tower, particularly the bit stating something along the lines

Spoiler:

Roland and his Ka-tet would find an ally in an unexpected source, it occurred to me that Walter might be that person.

He seemed to have provided aid in earlier scenes already, and I wondered if he would end up taking a Gollum type role, i.e. an ally, but one with a knife ready to plunge into Roland's back. I suppose it is a good thing that King didn't take it down that route, particularly as it's been done before, but I can't help think it would have been more satisfying than what we did get.

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Originally Posted by Brainslinger

The fact he felt guilt and reacts that way to Callahan's accusation is interesting, and definitely humanizes him somewhat, and indeed show he has some good in him. Yet ironically, by blaming ka, and the King (and I'm not clear here if he meant the Crimson King or

Spoiler:

The Author of whom he was certainly aware

) he is making excuses for himself, as Letti said. Certainly a negative trait, yet again a very human one.

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It seems clear to me he is meaning The Crimson King. Usually

Spoiler:

Stephen King is described as 'King' not as 'The King'.

I do agree it humanizes him.
The whole blaming "ka, the King and the Tower" for everyone being caught, I think is definitely him not wanting to take ownership for his actions but also a real belief that nothing he can do can change anything.

And you know what? I think it was a confession. Walter believes in Gan even if the doesn't serve him. In fact Callahan is a priest. Walted wanted to say out these things loudly for long and then he could at last. He could get rid of it. He could share it.
He might have stepped on the dark path because he couldn't forgive Gan.
Now he might think Gan can't forgive him. There is neither return no hope.

Okay, I have stopped I may have gone too far. :)

Not too far Letti. That was a beautiful post. Thank you so much for that. :thumbsup: It already made my day (its 8:30 in the morning where I live). :)

Thank you. :blush:

Thank you ma'am. :)

Good thread.
I found it quite disturbing that Walter even tried to 'justify' himself to Callahan like that. Why does he give a damn that Callahan thinks him 'cruel'? Why dos he not revel in that cruelty? (... well, maybe he does? but why try to justify it - or deflect it from himself?)

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Originally Posted by Letti

And you know what? I think it was a confession. Walter believes in Gan even if the doesn't serve him. In fact Callahan is a priest. Walted wanted to say out these things loudly for long and then he could at last. He could get rid of it. He could share it.
He might have stepped on the dark path because he couldn't forgive Gan.
Now he might think Gan can't forgive him. There is neither return no hope.

Okay, I have stopped I may have gone too far. :)

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I don't agree, Letti. I think he was surprised by Callahan into telling him but I don't take it anywhere near as far as a confession. I don't see any evidence throughout the series that we could make a judgement one way or the other about Walter and forgiveness or lack thereof from Gan.
To me this is a window into his belief that he isn't in control of his actions entirely, and like you said there is some self-justifications for his actions in his mind. Blaming it on higher forces etc.

It's not a judgement and you are right there is no proof it was just my opinion. No more.

Of course its an opinion, most of this is afterall. What I'm saying is I don't see any evidence throughout the series to back up your opinion, about this scene being a confession involving Walter not being able to forgive Gan. So is this just a feeling of yours that you were going by, I'm assuming?

What resonated with me in Letti's post is exactly what CK is disputing. Its interesting that Los nabbed Walter when he was young and vulnerable after having been raped as a young teen. I'm sure Walter has resentments toward Gan, who didn't reach out to him. Letti's post offers more of a motive for Walter's desire to gain the tower than anything else I have read.

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Originally Posted by obscurejude

What resonated with me in Letti's post is exactly what CK is disputing. Its interesting that Los nabbed Walter when he was young and vulnerable after having been raped as a young teen. I'm sure Walter has resentment's toward Gan, who didn't reach out to him. Letti's post offers more of a motive for Walter's desire to gain the tower than anything else I have read.

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Its definitely an intriguing supposition alright, if there was some real evidence pointing to unforgivness of Gan etc. Walter does say he started serving the Crimson King fairly late in his life...so it wasn't when he was young.

No, Mathew, I think he says something about how the CK first sent him dreams when he was young. He was older when he sold his soul, but the seeds were planted when he was a youth.

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Originally Posted by All_Hail_The_Crimson_King

Walter does say he started serving the Crimson King fairly late in his life...so it wasn't when he was young.

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this is what i thought as well. Walter may have turned his mind towards selfishness and even "evil" after he was abused as a child, but that is different than outright service to the Crimson King.

Different than outright service, agreed, but King's characters are made, not born.

:looks for reference:

Los' came to him in dreams when he was a youth, but his actual service was a late thing. Thats from what I understand.

I think its evidence that might suggest what Letti posted. When I read the passage about the dreams, and then about the rape, Letti's post is almost verbatim what I was thinking. I'm just saying that I the fact that the passage quoted at the beginning of this thread is even more significant because it is in the revised edition. King understood Walter as a character more and his statement to Callahan is very evident of that. I immediately thought of the rape scene and the dreams when I read that passage for the first time. Letti was right on when she brought out the significance of the Callahan being a priest.

I think of the Dark Tower, at times, as a comparison between Roland and Walter in the sense of two characters with similar aims and drives, but ultimately good or evil because of divine influence (Roland and Gan, Walter and Los).