That is exactly what I mean. The CK was "trapped" but only in a physical way on the Tower balcony.
However, I believe Linda's point is that no matter what he did or how hard he tried, a being like the CK could never actually climb to the top. Because the Tower is you in many ways and what was inside of him prevented that.
The balcony and locked door are simply ways to physically illustrate the fact.
05-12-2008 12:57 PM
mia/susannah
matt, I think you and alinda had a great answer. I tend to think along the same lines
05-12-2008 03:26 PM
Wuducynn
Its interesting speculation, but I don't see any basis in it. We know that the Crimson King has been trying to bring down the Tower for a long, long time. We know that he snapped when he saw Roland's ka-tet's victory at Blue Heaven, killed almost everyone in his castle, and then rode to the Dark Tower wrapped in a storm, and got onto a balcony of the Tower and was trapped on the balcony.
We also know from events in Black House
Spoiler:
that he was weakened by the destruction of An Tak, his engine for spreading discordia, strong speculation says that An Tak is the same as the King's Forge.
My speculation still stands that Los' was trapped on the Tower balcony because of the re-awakening Beams weakening him and by Gan so that he doesn't climb to the top where there is a real possibility he could destroy the Dark Tower.
So Gan and the Beams have trapped the King until Roland and Patrick come to do battle with him and hopefully win. I am not convinced that Gan holds all the cards and has total control over all events so that it can make sure Roland wins in each loop and stop the Crimson King.
I think the danger to the Tower is real each time.
05-12-2008 03:31 PM
alinda
Maybe it was his KA.
05-12-2008 04:45 PM
obscurejude
Quote:
Originally Posted by All_Hail_The_Crimson_King
Its interesting speculation, but I don't see any basis in it. We know that the Crimson King has been trying to bring down the Tower for a long, long time. We know that he snapped when he saw Roland's ka-tet's victory at Blue Heaven, killed almost everyone in his castle, and then rode to the Dark Tower wrapped in a storm, and got onto a balcony of the Tower and was trapped on the balcony.
We also know from events in Black House
Spoiler:
that he was weakened by the destruction of An Tak, his engine for spreading discordia, strong speculation says that An Tak is the same as the King's Forge.
My speculation still stands that Los' was trapped on the Tower balcony because of the re-awakening Beams weakening him and by Gan so that he doesn't climb to the top where there is a real possibility he could destroy the Dark Tower.
So Gan and the Beams have trapped the King until Roland and Patrick come to do battle with him and hopefully win. I am not convinced that Gan holds all the cards and has total control over all events so that it can make sure Roland wins in each loop and stop the Crimson King.
I think the danger to the Tower is real each time.
I'm very much in agreement with CK on this one. The three Stephen Kings pretty much say the same thing to Roland and Susannah. CK was permanently placed on the balcony once Blue Heaven was destroyed. Fimalo tells Roland that his interest in going to the tower is self serving for the fact that it might give Los an out if he obtains one of the guns of Eld, which would let him leave the balcony. Other than that, the CK is trapped indefinitely.
05-12-2008 10:06 PM
Letti
I don't think CK can/could destroy the Tower.
He is the prisoner of the balcony because... how can I put it into words... it's like when a splinter goes into your finger. Slowly you body throws and pushes it out because it feels it doesn't belong there. A little splinter under the skin can't kill the body but that's how the body works.
I feel something similar happened to CK, too.
05-13-2008 06:26 AM
Matt
Great description of the idea Letti. I agree and I think the CK could be summed up as nothing more than an irritant to the Dark Tower.
It is, after all, the center off all time and space and size.
05-13-2008 10:47 AM
Jean
I don't know if I agree with the idea, but it sure is a terrific metaphor!
05-13-2008 11:07 AM
Letti
Thank you, guys. It came to my mind immediately as I tried to explain how I thought it and I couldn't get rid of it... so I wrote it down.
05-19-2008 12:02 PM
Merlin1958
Quote:
Originally Posted by All_Hail_The_Crimson_King
Its interesting speculation, but I don't see any basis in it. We know that the Crimson King has been trying to bring down the Tower for a long, long time. We know that he snapped when he saw Roland's ka-tet's victory at Blue Heaven, killed almost everyone in his castle, and then rode to the Dark Tower wrapped in a storm, and got onto a balcony of the Tower and was trapped on the balcony.
We also know from events in Black House
Spoiler:
that he was weakened by the destruction of An Tak, his engine for spreading discordia, strong speculation says that An Tak is the same as the King's Forge.
My speculation still stands that Los' was trapped on the Tower balcony because of the re-awakening Beams weakening him and by Gan so that he doesn't climb to the top where there is a real possibility he could destroy the Dark Tower.
So Gan and the Beams have trapped the King until Roland and Patrick come to do battle with him and hopefully win. I am not convinced that Gan holds all the cards and has total control over all events so that it can make sure Roland wins in each loop and stop the Crimson King.
I think the danger to the Tower is real each time.
This may seem a little simpler than you all would prefer but I think the CK became the prisoner of the Tower for the simple reason that he was crazy enough to enter it. Plus. as previously mentioned in this thread. he removed his mark of Eld. I think that removing the mark trapped him on the balcony itself but had he not removed it he still would not be strong enough to reach the room at the top.
I think the key to the CK be able to "enter the room" was weakening and bringing the Tower down to his level a la Satan in Paradise Lost. Otherwise, what would really have prevented him from entering the Tower long before Roland ever got there? As the comics hint, wasn't the "Evil Plan" to bring forth a child bearing the mark of Eld with Chaos seed from the start? otherwise why the ruse in the court of Arthur Eld (Gunslinger Born)?
Just some thoughts
05-19-2008 12:23 PM
mia/susannah
merlin1958, great post. I don't have the comics to read but I tend to think that CK is trapped on the balcony to keep him from causing more damage to the Dark Tower. I may be wrong
07-30-2008 01:10 PM
pathoftheturtle
Quote:
Originally Posted by Letti
I don't think CK can/could destroy the Tower.
He is the prisoner of the balcony because... how can I put it into words... it's like when a splinter goes into your finger. Slowly you body throws and pushes it out because it feels it doesn't belong there. A little splinter under the skin can't kill the body but that's how the body works.
I feel something similar happened to CK, too.
It can lead to an infection, actually, and end up killing you that way. I may be wrong, and I hate to contradict the positive attitude, because I basically agree about the CK as a threat. However, I have never had the experience, myself, of a splinter just being pushed out. I know the body feels it doesn’t belong there, and it will react, in part by sending you increasing pain signals, but when I get a splinter, I go after it myself, with a needle. In India, they say “It takes a thorn to remove a thorn.” What I mean to say, in essence, is that I think Gan uses Roland.
Quote:
Originally Posted by All_Hail_The_Crimson_King
...I am not convinced that Gan holds all the cards and has total control over all events so that it can make sure Roland wins in each loop and stop the Crimson King.
I think the danger to the Tower is real each time.
Perhaps. You may be right; King does seem awfully fond of that idea that “the column of truth has a hole in it.” I personally do believe it, though... that it is ka, it’s meant to be, all of that...
Quote:
Originally Posted by obscurejude
...The three Stephen Kings pretty much say the same thing to Roland and Susannah. CK was permanently placed on the balcony once Blue Heaven was destroyed. Fimalo tells Roland that his interest in going to the tower is self serving for the fact that it might give Los an out if he obtains one of the guns of Eld, which would let him leave the balcony. Other than that, the CK is trapped indefinitely.
Okay, well, let me just say once and for all that I do not trust Rando Thoughtful. “Stephen King” and “Fimalo” both turn out to be aliases; the only thing from this scene which “we know” for sure is that they were definitely deceptive, offering food that was really foulest poison. Plus, this guy says “The job is done, there’s no more threat, everything is fine,” and then he gets eaten by Mordred. I say that if they’d listened to him, the same (at best) is what would have happened to the multiverse: we all would have gotten eaten by Mordred.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Matt
...I personally believe The Tower is a personal manifestation and so if we assume it is the "CK" Tower than it trapped him because of what was inside himself. Evil
If I understand what you are saying, I don’t quite agree with that idea, either.
Quote:
Another nineteen steps took him to the second landing and the second room. Here bits of cloth were scattered across the circular floor. Roland had no question that they had once been an infant’s clout, torn to shreds by a certain petulant interloper, who had then gone out onto the balcony for a look back at the field of roses and found himself betaken.
The simplest explanation would seem to be that “the interloper” was petulant over the fact that these rooms are dedicated to the life of Roland. Do you think the torn clout was pure illusion made for Roland? That he sees it as a “translation” of some other artifact, one from CK’s own life, that he had torn up for some other reason? Or could you agree with me that the evil inside him might have gotten him trapped even if The Tower we're shown is a universal manifestation?
I like this thread a lot, Letti, and hope to try to give my own answers for the questions which you started it with, before too long. At the moment, though, I just felt like bumping it, and sharing some opinions about these other theories. Hope it's alright. :)
07-31-2008 03:09 AM
Darkthoughts
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jean
Too bad the comics autors followed him.
But they are led by Stephen King, which is why I take it as canon. I know that you refuse to consider extra material once a series has reached "The End" though :D
Quote:
Originally Posted by pathoftheturtle
Quote:
Roland had no question that they had once been an infant’s clout, torn to shreds by a certain petulant interloper, who had then gone out onto the balcony for a look back at the field of roses and found himself betaken.
The simplest explanation would seem to be that “the interloper” was petulant over the fact that these rooms are dedicated to the life of Roland. Do you think the torn clout was pure illusion made for Roland? That he sees it as a “translation” of some other artifact, one from CK’s own life, that he had torn up for some other reason? Or could you agree with me that the evil inside him might have gotten him trapped even if The Tower we're shown is a universal manifestation?
That's an excellent point! Because I think we generally assume that the Tower is different for each individual that enters it.
Then again, if you need the mark of the Eld to reach the top, perhaps it is only for people of that lineage and the rooms within are only pertainent to those of the Eld.
Or...
...perhaps as Roland is trapped in the loop, the Tower is for him alone (which would mirror his obsession with it) and therefore anyone entering it would see the rooms Roland sees time and time again.
07-31-2008 09:28 AM
Brainslinger
Considering whether the Tower was ever really in danger from the Crimson King...
If the beams had all weakened, certainly. However, ka is such that, I think Roland would prevent that from happening each loop. I might have misunderstood the way ka works, but considering that there appear to have been lots of loops before this, and Roland saved the Beams each time it seems a fair conclusion to come to.
If the Crimson King reached the top room, also very likely the Tower would fall. However, would he ever reach the top, even if he had never been trapped on the balcony? If he had reached the door at the top, couldn't the Tower have just deposited him somewhere in his past like it did Roland? Maybe sticking him on the balcony was just to make certain of his fate with the gunslinger, and er, rubberslinger. (That's eraserslinger in Americanese. I'm not suggesting Patrick flicked condoms at him, although that is a funny image,
Red eyes eh? thought Patrick. How's this for an encore?
Thwack!
"EEEEEEEEEE!") A way of dealing with him once and for all. Well, in this loop anyway. (I think it's still relevant and that time continues even when Roland is sent back. Otherwise Susannah meeting with the new brothers Toren would be short-lived.)
Ultimately, I'm not convinced the Tower would/will ever fall.
07-31-2008 11:33 AM
theBeamisHome
gosh guys... i thought he couldn't go up because he didn't have the guns.. lol
07-31-2008 11:33 AM
Darkthoughts
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brainslinger
If the Crimson King reached the top room, also very likely the Tower would fall. However, would he ever reach the top, even if he had never been trapped on the balcony? If he had reached the door at the top, couldn't the Tower have just deposited him somewhere in his past like it did Roland?
I was thinking this earlier when I was reading this thread. It seems a little contradictory doesn't it.
On one hand we're told that if the CK reaches the top he will vanquish the Tower. But on the other hand, the Tower has the power to throw Roland into a loop each time he reaches the summit - so why not the CK too?
Unless of course, its something to do with the Tower's power only being relative to Roland - which again fits in with the idea that the loop is outside of time and the actions performed in each loop affect nothing but Roland, ie the whole journey is a purgatory (but obviously not an infinite one, as shown by Roland obtaining the horn on the last loop).
07-31-2008 10:59 PM
Letti
Quote:
Originally Posted by Darkthoughts
...perhaps as Roland is trapped in the loop, the Tower is for him alone (which would mirror his obsession with it) and therefore anyone entering it would see the rooms Roland sees time and time again.
Yes, I agree that the Tower is for Roland alone but I don't think CK could have seen those rooms full of Roland's past.
I think he would have seen empty rooms and he would have found a blank door at the top of the Tower (that would have never opened for him BUT for my part I think the Tower forced him to step on the balcony to lock him out. He didn't belong there.
08-01-2008 04:52 AM
Darkthoughts
But the CK had ripped up some of Roland's baby clothes in the room who's balcony he was trapped in...
08-01-2008 11:59 AM
pathoftheturtle
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brainslinger
Considering whether the Tower was ever really in danger from the Crimson King...
If the beams had all weakened, certainly. However, ka is such that, I think Roland would prevent that from happening each loop. ...
Yeah, that's what I think, too. What the CK's minion says is that he has found a way into the Tower's mouth, and holds it against Roland; that if he cannot climb it, he just wants to deny Roland what he wants, and doesn't care at all about understanding it.
I believe that Roland (and his inevitable approach) is what was on the CK's mind when he stepped out to look back. His own fear and apprehension led him to make the choice that ka wanted him to. He's really just there to oppose the hero's entry.
What I don't agree with is the advice to let him have his way in that. Rando Thoughtful says that they'll pass beyond ka if they don't turn back, but I don't think that's true at all. Taking the guns might be the CK's plan, but that doesn't mean that Roland has to be afraid. It comes down to a judgement call, but I think the call that he does make is the one that keeps him under ka's protection.
08-01-2008 02:50 PM
Brainslinger
Quote:
What I don't agree with is the advice to let him have his way in that. Rando Thoughtful says that they'll pass beyond ka if they don't turn back, but I don't think that's true at all.
I agree. I don't think the 3 Kings were lying over a lot of the things they said, (apart from the 'food' and their disguise of course) but I do think they may have been incorrect on some particulars. Particularly that bit about being beyond ka. I don't think anyone is ever beyond ka (in the world of the story), except possibly when they die.... and maybe not even then.
01-24-2009 03:15 AM
Bumbler19
well i thought i understood this well...
CK in a way renounced the tower even when he was inside it, the fact he took a gander outside shows he puts himself before the tower, HE wanted to take one last look outside, or one last look at what he intended to destroy. He was Selfish, therefore barred from reentry.
Its like... you are on your way to heaven, eternal bliss, amazingness, eternal life, everything you could ever dream of you ever wanted you ever needed right there in heaven and you are on your way there, but then being like... I think i'll stop at the red light district to get one last Squirt out on a whore before I go... personally I don't think God is gonna go for that, do you?
Roland wanted to make it to the top... period.
01-24-2009 11:26 AM
Letti
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bumbler19
Its like... you are on your way to heaven, eternal bliss, amazingness, eternal life, everything you could ever dream of you ever wanted you ever needed right there in heaven and you are on your way there, but then being like... I think i'll stop at the red light district to get one last Squirt out on a whore before I go... personally I don't think God is gonna go for that, do you?
Hm, nice thought.
But if you ever can step on the path to Heaven I don't think you are that type of person who will take a short visit at your favourite whore.
CK never had a chance to enter the top room. My two cents.
01-24-2009 11:39 AM
razz
here's a question: Why did he go out ON to the Balcony? was he forced onto it? Because i seriously doubt he became distracted by the beauty of the CanKaNoRe when he looked out there.
01-24-2009 11:53 AM
Letti
Quote:
Originally Posted by razz
here's a question: Why did he go out ON to the Balcony? was he forced onto it? Because i seriously doubt he became distracted by the beauty of the CanKaNoRe when he looked out there.
Because he thought he owned everything and he wanted to feel it with every sick cell of his. You know... when you buy your new castle and you don't give a damn about the view but the money you spent and you feel proud and you step in the balcony and you feel you are the king of the world.
Something like this.
01-24-2009 12:03 PM
razz
So the crazy mofo did it because he wanted to fell like a homeowner? :wtf: