The nature of the Rose *hard spoilers*

I will think of it. To tell you the truth it would be better if I could accept that that piece of paper was important... I am rereading that part and I don't have peace with it.

i def see where you are coming from Letti... why would a person who breaks laws like Balazar respect a piece of paper? techincalities don't seem to phase Balazar.

once Tet Corp was up and running I can see how the Rose is more protected from outsiders, but how long did it take from 1977 when they bought the Lot to build that bldg protecting it?

That is a very good point

it begs the question of whether Sombra really wanted to destroy it, or just own it. we know Roland and Eddie and crew think Sombra wants it destroyed, but we don't know from the CK's side if this is correct, or moreso, if it's even possible.

Thats true, if it was possible to do a direct assault on the tower would the red even bother with the breakers

exactly! i don't think the Tower or the Rose could be directly hurt, but the support structures, that's different. perhaps it's about owning [and then poisoning] the actual soil in which the Rose is growing [attacking it's Beams so to speak]?

Such great thoughts. Keep on writing, guys. :)

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Originally Posted by R_of_G

exactly! i don't think the Tower or the Rose could be directly hurt, but the support structures, that's different. perhaps it's about owning [and then poisoning] the actual soil in which the Rose is growing [attacking it's Beams so to speak]?

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We find out in the comics

Spoiler:

that a direct attack on the Tower is possible, that was what the Great Old Ones pulled

But there is probably different ways of doing it. One of which was owning the land that the Rose was on and figuring out how to destroy it.

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Originally Posted by Letti

...What could (Roland and his tet) have done if anyone had appeared there with their men to destroy it? They wouldn't have known about it at all...

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That's why they appointed caretakers. "The Old Farts of the Apocaylpse," who became the Ka-tet of the Rose. With legal title, they could even have called the police. Having the general public learn about the monsters against them would be hard on the Red.

However, this also serves a symbolic purpose. Even without fantasy elements, rampant development as epitomized by New York City construction can be seen as bad and potentially disastrous.

Still I wonder: are the Rose and the Tower the same thing?
There's really no logical explanation for the idea. It's either a simple metaphor or a purely mystical circumstance. If Tower Keystone was a possible future of Keystone Rose, then saving the latter, removing what small corruption the Rose had in it, preventing its growth, should have automatically meant that the world-shaking corruption levels seen in the Tower would never have come to pass. That's not the case at all, though; as I understand it these are two separate universes with equal claim to "realness." And that is a hell of a paradox if they are also fundamentally the same.

The Dark Tower starts with a grim storyline about a detached gunslinger in a decaying world out to confront his maker. And this line is never lost or broken; the author carries it through to the end. It is complicated, though, by this second storyline. It is as though King were making an analogy to show that there can be another side to something like the Tower, that it might be different from another perspective. And yet, here it is also shown that the character of Roland has another side, as well. To the Rose he is hero and protector.

It is a serious duality. When we interpret the series poetically, looking just at the symbols and their relationships, TDT is a sweet fable about respecting nature. When we interpret it prosaically, however, trying to comprehend the overall plot, it is a horror story about reality gone mad.

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Originally Posted by KO1

In simpliest terms its not the piece of paper that matters, but the legal principles that are enacted by the signing of it. Once either side had legal ownership of the lot they now had access to the rose to either protect it or begin whatever actions would be necessary to destroy it
Time they would not have had had others owned it.

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Originally Posted by pathoftheturtle

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Originally Posted by Letti

...What could (Roland and his tet) have done if anyone had appeared there with their men to destroy it? They wouldn't have known about it at all...

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That's why they appointed caretakers. "The Old Farts of the Apocaylpse," who became the Ka-tet of the Rose. With legal title, they could even have called the police. Having the general public learn about the monsters against them would be hard on the Red.

Still I wonder: are the Rose and the Tower the same thing?


it is a horror story about reality gone mad.

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a few things come to me while reading this thread
firstly, while i agree that the rose could not be destroyed, i feel it could be corrupted. which in turn would harm the dark tower,
i dont feel the rose is the tower - more a representative -an ambassador??
and if the representative is corrupted then this in turn feeds the dark tower.

i am not really talking of corruption in terms of good and evil, as noted on a seperate tread i beleive the tower is above that. no, the corruption i think of is more like a corrosion where the rose and the tower may become husks of what they where - thereby distorting reality

you say true that the rose can defend itself, however constant battering would have worn it down.

i agree that the 'piece of paper that made the contract' in itself could not help protect the rose - how.ever i agree that the time taken to sort this out would help the rose gather itself again

sorry if this is all waffle and does not make sense, trust me it does it my head, its just really hard to try to explain it to you all.

plus its early morning - i shall put my thoughts in order and return

I have the foundations of a theory (and I doubt I'm the first to think this) that every single rose in CAN' Ka No Rey has a corresponding rose in each existing world. While the beams hold up the Dark Tower, each rose connects (in what might be a physical sense) the world its in to the Keystone Tower. If this is the case, then not protecting the rose would have meant not protecting the existence of that world.

I said that I have the "foundations of a theory" because it occurred to me this morning and I haven't had time to really dive into it and see how it fits and relates (or doesn't) to the many enthralling levels of this story. I encourage help from everyone!

I totally agree with the theory, I believe the roses at the base of the Dark Tower are not only worlds but Universes!

The Dark Tower being central to all. Welcome to the site, I love the insight.

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Originally Posted by AlChron77

I have the foundations of a theory (and I doubt I'm the first to think this) that every single rose in CAN' Ka No Rey has a corresponding rose in each existing world. While the beams hold up the Dark Tower, each rose connects (in what might be a physical sense) the world its in to the Keystone Tower. If this is the case, then not protecting the rose would have meant not protecting the existence of that world.

I said that I have the "foundations of a theory" because it occurred to me this morning and I haven't had time to really dive into it and see how it fits and relates (or doesn't) to the many enthralling levels of this story. I encourage help from everyone!

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You have a very good point there. It was very necessary for the rose to be protected.

Right, but it is especially heroic of Roland to protect that rose (and thus, that world) if it has no actual direct effect on him and his world.

Wow AlChron77, I love this theory to pieces.
Is it possible that there are more of these special roses in New York? Or in our world? If there is only one.. why not more? I can understand that there are tons of roses with universes inside around the Dark Tower. But why does our world have one?
Yeah, I know I am much better at asking than answering, sorry. :rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by pathoftheturtle

Right, but it is especially heroic of Roland to protect that rose (and thus, that world) if it has no actual direct effect on him and his world.

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Good point. It makes me think twice about the theory because Roland said that protecting the beams was just a means to an end; that he didn't do it to secure the existence of the multiverse but did it to make sure the Tower didn't fall which would ensure that his life's quest of climbing to the top would still be possible. He did it for purely selfish reasons (so it seems).

If this is the case then why would he go to so much trouble to protect a world that is not his? Maybe because the other members of his ka-tet came from that world?

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Originally Posted by AlChron77

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Originally Posted by pathoftheturtle

Right, but it is especially heroic of Roland to protect that rose (and thus, that world) if it has no actual direct effect on him and his world.

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Good point. It makes me think twice about the theory because Roland said that ...he... did it to ...ensure that his life's quest of climbing to the top would still be possible. He did it for purely selfish reasons (so it seems). ...

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Only if that life's quest is purely selfish, I'd think.:orely:

Letti: Good questions! :) For my own part, I tend to believe that the rose is one of the beam portals in natural, unaltered form.

I think the Rose in New York is the "other end" of one around the Dark Tower...two sides of the same thing I think.

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Originally Posted by Letti

But he himself said that the Rose might be a door to the Tower... to the top of the Tower.
Why didn't he give it a try? I know he didn't have a lot of time...

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Maybe he didn't have the key? Maybe he didn't know how to open it?

Maybe ka willed it that he follow a certain path - the paths of the beam - and that the only way for Roland to get to the tower was by following that path.

To have just gone to the rose would have been to cheat, and would also have not enforced the structure of the beams, thusly making the tower fall and all worlds die... Maybe he was on a one-way street, unless he gave up the tower, then all things were possible.

Just a crazy idea from my muddled be-rains...

Maybe he was protecting the rose so that someone else along the way could come to the tower and take his place as guardian? There are so many ideas I have rambling through my head that I can't even get them out...

regarding the importance of the ownership contract... I believe that the legality of it in our terms is unimportant. i tend to believe that it is more important what the rose itself thinks. The CK thought that by reaching the top of the tower he could gain dominion over it and all it controles. i think that, as the rose is our level of the tower's representation of the tower itself, by claiming ownership of the lot the CK hopes to master the rose as he did the tower. While the CK isn't in "ownership" the tower will take steps to protect itself, as it did by rejecting the CK onto his balcony. i believe without the contract the rose would act in much the same way.

Just a thought. guess you guys will rip it to shreds, but there you have it.:orely:

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Originally Posted by Matt

I think the Rose in New York is the "other end" of one around the Dark Tower...two sides of the same thing I think.

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That is very similar to what I believe. Maybe the rose can be used as a portal to get from this world to the Dark Tower somehow, but more importantly the rose tethers this world to the keystone world and the Tower. Each rose in CAN' Ka No Rey tethers a different world, keeping it connected to the keystone world and thus protecting its existence. If a rose is destroyed, its world no longer has a connection to the Dark Tower or the keystone world and therefore no longer exists.

Again, isn't that the purpose of the Beam portals? Same thing, right? It could be that the many worlds connected to each of those is also tied to a single rose at the Tower, but if that theory is correct, then what effect did Roland picking one for Patrick have?

In regards to the importance of the contract, I would agree that the actual piece of paper was of little importance, BUT what it represented to Calvin Tower, as a fulfillment of the duty placed upon him was important. Don't forget it was this piece of paper that brought the NY ka-tet together. It brought all the old men together and gave them purpose. While I agree that the paper may not keep the CK at bay the NY tet could and did, but they would not have come together if not for the contract

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Originally Posted by jayson

exactly! i don't think the Tower or the Rose could be directly hurt, but the support structures, that's different. perhaps it's about owning [and then poisoning] the actual soil in which the Rose is growing [attacking it's Beams so to speak]?

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I like this concept.

just wanted to bump this for fun:)