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I must have dozed during that part. I was watching it after the Oscars. That makes more sense now.Quote:
Originally Posted by RUBE
The Saviors just collected all of their weapons. Maybe they could have ran and hid in the trash but attacking people that have automatic weapons with your bare hands (or knifes that some surely had) isn't going to work well. The real question is why even leave Jadis alive if you kill everyone else?Quote:
Originally Posted by Still Servant
I enjoyed last nights episode, especially the Gabriel and Carson stuff. It planted a seed for a future plot line, but I really liked how Gabriel had basically instilled some faith in Carson, which got him killed, which shook Gabriel's faith. An unexpected turn of events.
A lot of fans are calling Tara a hypocrite because she told Dwight he can't just switch sides, because she was with The Governor. The two situations are entirely different. Dwight knew what Negan was and what The Saviors were. Tara had no idea who the Governor was, didn't fight, and Glenn was the one who found her and convinced her to come with him. :/
And there really isn't an option on joining Negan.
I'm not reading the new comments but this is the third week in a row that we forgot the show was on.
Matt, you and I have a ton in common, but when it comes to this show, we are often times on completely different sides.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mattrick
I came here to basically mention how the last thing most people wanted was a Gabriel centered episode. :lol:
Again, the other thing that bothered me about this episode is the same thing that continues to plague this show and that's the lack of logic or rational thought. Basically, what I mean is characters not acting the way a normal human would act in a situation.
For instance, Denise takes a stroll through the woods with Dwight. The threat of Walkers isn't great. She walks behind him as he kills the few scattered zombies. Finally, he comes to a stop after finishing off the remaining few. Now, this is when Denise decides to take her shot at him. It doesn't make sense. She could have put a bullet in the back of his head at any point. The show too often treats the viewer like we are stupid. Come up with a valid story device that makes it impossible for her to kill Dwight until that very moment, otherwise you just look stupid.
Lastly, I'm tired of them making us think we're supposed to give a shit about secondary characters that we've barely seen. I don't give a shit about the little kid, I don't remember his brother, I don't give a shit about his brother, I don't give a shit about who killed him. I literally give zero shits about the who story thread. There are so many more important characters and plot points why are we wasting time with this shit?
Yeah, that is probably the biggest thing for me too. The biggest draw to this show was that feeling of plausibility. That, could you imagine being in these situations, feeling. I remember telling friends who had not watched any TWD and saying, it’s much more than zombies, it’s survival. It’s plausible. It had a sense of grit, but an overlay of some realism. Now, I find myself much too often saying, wtf no one would do that.
With all that said, I’m enjoying this bottom half of this season more than the first. But at somepoint, since Negan arrived it seems, the show just went sideways. Not exactly sure when, but I do miss how it was. Maybe after terminus?
Even the last episode and trying to put out the gazebo that was scorched with flames with a couple extinguishers. Really? It’s like cheap shots to try to get that ‘Walkers gonna get you’ feeling.
Also, this whole let’s save the saviors and keep them prisoner. And the tall long hair guy. Really, he wouldn’t have already been one of the ones sent as a message to Negan? Again, I lose that ‘Oh my god, that was brutal but so true, I would have done that. Or that was terrible but the tragic real move to make’ feeling. Now it is like, did seriously everyone just lose their common sense?
Ok, stepping off the soapbox.
The biggest issue since Negan showed up isn't Negan so much, it's that they bloated the All Out War arc with The Scavengers and Oceanside. Oceanside doesn't even enter the comics until after this arc, and the scavengers aren't there. That really drew focus away from the main story: The Kingdom, Hilltop, and Alexandria banding together to fight The Saviors. The only real thing we've gotten from Oceanside and The Scavengers is showing how ruthless Simon is, having killed at the males at Oceanside (not directly states) and killing all the Scavengers. The story would be a lot more focused without all the extra stuff they added in. It was smart of them to introduce hilltop and The Saviors in season 6, and introduce The Kingdom a little earlier, but then they bunged it up.
The show has become what made season 3 so bad (still the worst season imo), and that's plot-heavy, which isn't allowing the characters to deal with individual situations in a way that feels organic. A show like this having a plot forces characters to make decisions to fit the plot instead of characters decisions driving the plot. Season 2 was entirely about characters decisions (and figuring out what decisions to make) and the consequences of them, which is why I like it so much.
Thankfully, the New Beginning Arc isn't as plot heavy, and unless they make it convoluted, it should feel more like old Walking Dead again. The past couple of seasons what they've gotten right has been great. I know you don't care, Mike, about Henry's brother dying, but that was my favourite plotline from Season 7, with Richard trying to instigate a fight between the saviors by making the drop light, and it resulted in Benjamin getting killed, which made Morgan kill Richard, which is why Morgan has been so crazy because it brought back his grief of losing Dwayne. This was the one story they added to this two season arc that really worked. The whole Morgan arc in the series since his return has just been fantastic. His death in the comics is so bad and him coming back into the story was so pointless. If they hadn't bloated the story with two extra communities and an extra handful of characters, which ate up the better part of 4 or 5 episodes, they would have time to flesh out the secondary characters more.
I think a big thing too is that the show didn't feel comic booky for years (it barely followed the commics the first 4 season), but for this arc they follow the comics really close and not all of it translates to non-comic readers. Having read the comics twice through, I get enjoyment seeing some of my favourite moments come to life that I imagine a lot of TV viewers don't get. Another thing which doesn't help is since some comic characters died early, some comic characters lived way longer than in the comics, some characters aren't in the comics, they force characters into certain roles because those roles are important in the comics. A lot of the odd pairings we've seen are because those characters aren't part of the comics. Carol and Morgan and in the Kingdom? They're dead by this point in the comics; Carol takes on Michonne's role with Ezekiel because Michonne is taking on comic Andrea's role with Rick. Tara/Enid/Aaron with Oceanside? Two aren't in the comics (Enid is replacement Sophia, who is still alive in the comics) and Aaron is injured and not in that part of the story line much. Daryl has basically been the utility player, filling in holes everywhere because he has no comic role. In some ways, it's really calculated, but it doesn't always work.
All I know is that the rest of Season 8 should be nice and focused since we've only got Hilltop and The Sanctuary (and the wildcard of Oceanside). They've been trying to do too much. Looking forward to the focused and slow, progressive build that should be Season 9. Their best character-driven writer is also the new showrunner (i.e., she wrote many episodes people hated because 'nothing happened') so I imagine she'll be the panacea The Walking Dead needs for most people because she's not limited anymore.
Thank you! I forgot I wanted to mention that. It's a perfect example of what I'm talking about. You're going to risk your life to put out a fire on some gazebo just because it has some sentimental value? Give me a break.Quote:
Originally Posted by TravelinJack
I agree with a lot of what you said. Especially the part that the show has gotten too plot heavy, which has hurt the characters dealing with different situations. I honestly can't remember the last time I saw two characters just reminisce about past events, characters or their lives before the world went to shit.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mattrick
As for the comics, I took a break from reading them to read the Mr. Mercedes series. I'm hoping to jump back in this summer.
The comics are pretty okay in the beginning. They start picking up when the prison goes down, and then they just kind of keep getting better and better. You'll have to tell me what you think of the New Beginning arc that begins after the Negan arc when you get to it. The next threat coming up for the show is fantastic. Such a welcome departure from Negan and The Governor.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TravelinJack
I'm only buying the compendiums. I have 1 and 2 so far. Is the New Beginning arc in compendium form yet?Quote:
Originally Posted by Mattrick
Yes (if the compendiums are those hardcovers that are like 40 issues or whatever). From what I know, the third compendium contains new beginning (a six issue volume) and, I believe, ends with issue #144 because I think Kirkman once mentioned that he feels bad for compendium readers waiting after that issue. I started reading the comics during New Beginning and I think issue 134 was the first issue I read upon release, so it's been almost 3 years since I started reading. It sucks waiting a full month for the next issue, but it is a unique way to get a story.
How close is the show to where the comics are now...Quote:
Originally Posted by Mattrick
Timeline wise, extremely far apart. After this season's story, the comics have a time up between issues 126 and 127, of about 3 years. Carl's vision in this season was full of Easter eggs for the time jump. It's uncertain if the show is going to do a time jump, but I think it would be for the best since it would age Judith, and allow her to become an active character to fill the hole Carl left. Issue wise, the comics just had issue 177 last week, and the show is at issue 122 as of the last episode.
Awesome thanks. I am looking forward to the Whisperers. Looks like Negan was foreshadowing that eh?Quote:
Originally Posted by Mattrick
If you've seen the mobisodes, I think those are foreshadowing them, at least that's my theory. I guess we'll see in volume two.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W-svB5rNGqg
I'd be careful with a time jump. Those are tricky to pull off on TV shows. Depending on how far you go, you have worry about making the characters look older.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mattrick
I'm interested to see what they do with Morgan knowing that he will be transitioning over to Fear the Walking Dead.
More of what we've been talking about last night.
First let me say, I'm disappointed we didn't get to see more of the car chase. I also felt cheated to not see the actual moment where Rick presumably gets Negan to wreck his car. Game of Thrones has fucking dragons, I'm pretty sure Walking Dead has the budget for a car crash.
Anyway, Rick Grimes is officially one of the dumbest characters in TV history. He for some reason decides to mindlessly shoot Negan's car, which A) wastes precious bullets, B) makes Negan aware that Rick is alive and well and C) attracts those pesky walkers.
Then, as if that wasn't dumb enough, he chases Negan into a dark building and rushes through the doorway without any caution. Then, in the dark let's not forget, decides to use his remaining bullets.
Don't worry, at least he still has a weapon ah fuck he just threw it at Negan. Well, there goes that. Oh, shit, nevermind, Negan just so happens to be the clumsiest human still drawing breath.
At this point, I want Negan to kill him so bad, but the worst part is that Negan is such a little pussy. I thought he was supposed to be this huge badass, but all I see is a wrestling heel that turns into a little bitch as soon as the face gets the upper hand.
Don't even get me started on the resolution of the Rick/Negan fight. I'm assuming Negan falls through the window. 12 seconds later, Rick goes outside and he's gone. Either he survived the fall with no injuries and was able to get away in that amount of time or weird Mad Max woman found him, picked him up, loaded him in the car and sped off in 12 seconds. Both are impossible. Sloppy.
People are still watching this? I hear the ratings are falling faster than, Trumps' approval rating!!! lol lol
It's a shame Walking Dead seems to have so many issues lately with filming action sequences. Think back to the episode JSS in season 6 when The Wolves attack Alexandria. That stuff was so good! Even when Rick and them attacked the Satellite Station later in season 6, that was well done too. I loved the dialogue between Rick and Negan, and how Rick vs. Negan allowed Simon to take over and go too far against The Hilltop in this next episode. But like I was saying about plot...the whole fight was nothing more than a vehicle to make sure Negan learned about Simon and The Scavengers, and to get him into the hands of Jadis, and so Simon could make his power play...characters do what they need to do to serve the plot. Whoever is plotting out The Walking Dead should be more concerned with justifying the characters decisions to get them where they need to be. Like with Jadis: her people are dead, so her nabbing Negan makes sense. I have to assume Jadis didn't snatch up Negan really fast like, but when Rick jumps out the window, she was there, and he let her take him in exchange for something else? Not sure the reasoning for that.
I'm lenient on Rick shooting and throwing his hatchet because he's not supposed to be thinking straight right now.
I agree with you. Some of those episodes were very strong. I especially loved the raid on the satellite station. That being said, that whole incident is one of the more hypocritical moments in the show that is really driving me crazy. Rick and his crew went in there and ruthlessly killed those guys in their sleep. Fast forward a season plus and now we have to save everybody? Morgan is being stopped from killing people left an right. Carol is reluctant. Rick has been reluctant. Why? What changed? You went into the station like a well-oiled killing unit and came out a bunch of pussies.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mattrick
Honestly, the biggest culprit for the state of The Walking Dead is Gimple. He's just not that great of a producer and I still don't understand the hiring. They made this guy the Producer of the biggest (at the time) show on the planet. His previous Producer credits were a forgettable animated show in Fillmore and a paint by numbers TV series in Chase that lasted 12 episodes. That's the guy you gave the keys to the franchise to? It doesn't make sense.
But Negan wakes up and seems to be surprised to see Jadis. If he allowed her to take him then he shouldn't have been surprised to see her when he wakes up in the car.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mattrick
I understand that line of thinking, but don't we expect more from our hero at this point? Even with the loss of his son, I feel like Rick is still one of those guys that would stay cool under pressure and get the job done.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mattrick
Haven't watched TWD in months... is Negan dead yet?
I actually think I've done a good job with that raid. Negan has expressed several times how reasonable he is considering Rick and his people slaughtered all his people without provocation, and he only killed one. It also makes sense why Simon hates them so much since that outpost was his. They also thought back in season 6 they were killing them all in one fell swoop. And if you look at this way, Rick and Co were basically the villains back in Season 6, but they have to learn from that and be better people. I think it's the balance between kill them all, like Daryl when he didn't care if non-combatants would be hurt or killed when he tried to end it, and trying not to hurt any non-combatants. They could probably hit the moral ambiguity better than they have been, but it's definitely there, like in Simon being more evil and ruthless than Negan.Quote:
Originally Posted by Still Servant
I'm still not sure where it went wrong with Gimple. He took over in season 4, which is my favourite season. Season 5 was strong as well, and Season 6 was uneven, but was fantastic when it hit its mark. With him being promoted to CBO (Chief Brand Officer), he's going to have a more passive, executive role over the entirety of The Walking Dead. I have high hopes with Angela Kang taking over. At least she understands how important character is.Quote:
Honestly, the biggest culprit for the state of The Walking Dead is Gimple. He's just not that great of a producer and I still don't understand the hiring. They made this guy the Producer of the biggest (at the time) show on the planet. His previous Producer credits were a forgettable animated show in Fillmore and a paint by numbers TV series in Chase that lasted 12 episodes. That's the guy you gave the keys to the franchise to? It doesn't make sense.
I think you misread what I said. I meant that Rick jumps out the window after Negan, and Jadis is already there. They make some kind of deal and Rick tells Jadis he can take Negan.Quote:
But Negan wakes up and seems to be surprised to see Jadis. If he allowed her to take him then he shouldn't have been surprised to see her when he wakes up in the car.
I think there is a lot of wanting to give it as good as he took it with Negan. It wouldn't be enough for Rick to kill Negan, he wants to humiliate and break him down first. Maybe he lets Jadis hold Negan prisoner just so when Rick wins, Negan can see he's lost everything.Quote:
I understand that line of thinking, but don't we expect more from our hero at this point? Even with the loss of his son, I feel like Rick is still one of those guys that would stay cool under pressure and get the job done.
https://i.ytimg.com/vi/sEDAaaPaXzA/maxresdefault.jpgQuote:
Originally Posted by fernandito
I see what you're saying now. They have to be really careful with that scenario though. I can't think of any deal Rick would make with Jadis that makes any kind of sense. As you mentioned, Rick doesn't want to just kill Negan, he wants to humiliate him. I just don't see him letting Negan out of his sight, especially in the case of leaving him with some low life like Jadis.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mattrick
Might be done to parallel Rick being held by Jadis in the first half of the season, with Negan held in a container while he's naked. Short of them showing us Jadis following Rick for a bit to know where they were, it seems far too coincidental that she's just there. I'm sure there is a reason, it depends how plausible the reason is. Chances are we won't find out tomorrow night though as it seems the attack on the Hilltop will be the episode.