"Thee's a good man, Roland of Gilead." *SERIOUS spoilers*

just because roland repents doing it doesn't mean he didn't do it. the fact is he killed jake. he dropped him. the fact is he murdered every person in the town of tull, children included (and there's no sign that he repents that).

as for the rape, he raped sylvia pittston with the gun of his father.

you can repent your actions but that doesn't mean you didn't do them.

i just don't think roland is a good man - YET. but i think the books clearly show that he is becoming a good man

Spoiler:

with every cycle that gan sends him on.

ETA: sorry about the spoiler letti my dear. i'll be more careful next time, i promise!

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Originally Posted by turtlesong

you can repent your actions but that doesn't mean you didn't do them.

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No, but, as I said, within my system of views, the man is not reducible to his actions, nor does his soul equal itself at any given moment of time.

TS, I don't disagree with you, with the exception of the statement that he murdered everyone in Tull. He shot people who were attacking him. That's not murder, it's self-defense. Regardless of how either of us views the depopulation of Tull, I still think the question at hand here is Rosa's perception of Roland, not our own. We are privy to more information than Rosa.

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Originally Posted by R_of_G

TS, I don't disagree with you, with the exception of the statement that he murdered everyone in Tull. He shot people who were attacking him. That's not murder, it's self-defense. Regardless of how either of us views the depopulation of Tull, I still think the question at hand here is Rosa's perception of Roland, not our own. We are privy to more information than Rosa.

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you have an excellent point jayson, and i need to remember it. this is from rosa's perception. and in her view, he stepped in when he really didn't have to and is trying to rid her town and its people of a grave and dangerous threat.

also, she sees him for the man he was when he came to the town. all she sees is the growth he's already gone through.

thank you for pointing this out to me. :rose:

You're quite welcome my turtle friend. :)

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Originally Posted by R_of_G

TS, I don't disagree with you, with the exception of the statement that he murdered everyone in Tull. He shot people who were attacking him. That's not murder, it's self-defense.

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What about poor Alice who only wanted a little loving???

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Originally Posted by LadyHitchhiker

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Originally Posted by R_of_G

TS, I don't disagree with you, with the exception of the statement that he murdered everyone in Tull. He shot people who were attacking him. That's not murder, it's self-defense.

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What about poor Alice who only wanted a little loving???

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And the guys he gunned down as they ran away?

I understand why he did it. He was in full gunslinger mode at that point, the battle rage was upon him.

That doesn't make it any less murder though.

I in his position would have done the same (meaning gunning down the ones running away) I would do this for the main reason of, I wouldn't want them running away and then having the chance to get it back together and then try to attack me again. If they made the initial move to attack me they would die wether running or advancing I wouldn't allow them the chance. It might be "murder" however looking at it from the viewpoint of personal preservation I can understand his actions.
As for what Rosa said to him I do believe she meant exactly what she said as alot of others had said here. Roland is in a way a good man just cold. (that doesn't make sense to me but in a way it's the only way I can say what I feel.:orely:)

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Originally Posted by Hbgunslinger

I in his position would have done the same (meaning gunning down the ones running away) I would do this for the main reason of, I wouldn't want them running away and then having the chance to get it back together and then try to attack me again. If they made the initial move to attack me they would die wether running or advancing I wouldn't allow them the chance. It might be "murder" however looking at it from the viewpoint of personal preservation I can understand his actions.

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My thoughts exactly. Once they attacked, that was their undoing. Given the fact that this was a mob there were no guarantees for Roland that they weren't running to just go around the corner and get something else to attack him with or sneak up behind him or whatever. Once the shooting starts, Roland's policy is always "no quarter" and when an entire town attacks you, I see little wrong with such a policy.

The same goes for Allie. She came to attack with all the rest of the brainwashed lunatics of Tull. What was Roland supposed to do, talk her down from lunacy and hope everybody else just waited for them to palaver before they attacked again.

If you attack a gunslinger, you should expect to get shot.

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Originally Posted by R_of_G

The same goes for Allie. She came to attack with all the rest of the brainwashed lunatics of Tull. What was Roland supposed to do, talk her down from lunacy and hope everybody else just waited for them to palaver before they attacked again.

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She didn't come to the attack, she was taken hostage. Roland just shot her down with the rest. Interestingly, the newer version of the Gunslinger allowed for the fact she wanted to die, having just unlocked the secrets of the beyond from (Nort?) but she certainly wasn't party to the attack, although insane in her own way.

I totally agree Roland's actions were largely understandable (although the Allie death scenes still strikes me as rather cold) but that doesn't make him less a murderer.

Not that I disagree with Rosa's assessment either, but as I said in the other posts, I think she may have said it to bring out the good 'part' of him, as in give him a focus to that side of his nature so he would go on to be good in future. (Not sure that makes sense the way I've written it.)

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Originally Posted by Brainslinger

I totally agree Roland's actions were largely understandable (although the Allie death scenes still strikes me as rather cold) but that doesn't make him less a murderer.

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I, on the contrary, think that Roland's actions in the first book, and some of later, too, were, if not unforgivable, totally unjustifiable; which doesn't prevent him from having become - or having been - a good man. All his evil doings come, as it is often the case, from his innocence, which, in its turn, stems from almost total a-morality of his eclectic background. He was raised as an Ubermensch, quasi-demi-god, an upper being, in a society where all conherence of cultural context was lost. He tried his best to redeem his humanity as a historic being, and to my mind succeeded.

Ah, but justifiable and understandable aren't necessary the same thing are they? (Although they're a short hop away a lot of the time.)

Brainslinger (I always type that out bc I don't want to abbreviate your member name to BS :P) - I am not crystal clear in my recollection of the entire Tull sequence, but you are likely correct about Allie. So maybe I will concede he could have killed one less person in Tull.

Jean - interesting perspective. What do you think Roland should have done when the mob attacked him?

I think he should have died.

Well it would have made for a much shorter series, that's for sure. :lol:

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Originally Posted by R_of_G

Well it would have made for a much shorter series, that's for sure. :lol:

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I have to admit that this consideration did cross my mind http://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k2...ear_tongue.gif

well she may think roland is a good man but Farson is The Good Man...

anyway i think that part of the series is rolands redemption by way of his ka-tet (ie family) which is what makes the ending so cruel, he becomes soulless again, in order to gain back his soul he damns himself, its a ka-tastic catch 22

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Originally Posted by flaggwalkstheline

well she may think roland is a good man but Farson is The Good Man...

anyway i think that part of the series is rolands redemption by way of his ka-tet (ie family) which is what makes the ending so cruel, he becomes soulless again, in order to gain back his soul he damns himself, its a ka-tastic catch 22

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I think having the Horn of Eld with him in the next loop means he is not souless again but has actually progressed.

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Originally Posted by Jean

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Originally Posted by Brainslinger

I totally agree Roland's actions were largely understandable (although the Allie death scenes still strikes me as rather cold) but that doesn't make him less a murderer.

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I, on the contrary, think that Roland's actions in the first book, and some of later, too, were, if not unforgivable, totally unjustifiable; which doesn't prevent him from having become - or having been - a good man. All his evil doings come, as it is often the case, from his innocence, which, in its turn, stems from almost total a-morality of his eclectic background. He was raised as an Ubermensch, quasi-demi-god, an upper being, in a society where all conherence of cultural context was lost. He tried his best to redeem his humanity as a historic being, and to my mind succeeded.

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Jean brings up a very good point here (as always). He was raised to in a way to kill first then don't ask questions if being attacked. I wonder if he would have been even colder if lets say he waited longer to go to the test of manhood against Cort. Also if he Never met up with Susan that night on his ride while she was enroute back from Rheas shack. In a way if he had never gone to the test early he most likely would have never been sent to Mejis anyways or if he had it problably would have been sent at a later time. Maybe even

Spoiler:

After Jonas and the Big Coffin hunters had Left with The Good Mans horses and supplies/oil.

Then everything would have changed for Roland in a much much different way.

All Hail brings up a very good point as well. With his restarting with the horn who knows how Tull went down. Maybe Walter didn't

Spoiler:

Raise Nort from death and set the ambush trap the way hid did.

Also Jean when you said he should have died I actually had to re read that twice to make sure my eyes where seeing that correctly.
This also makes me wonder if he

Spoiler:

Had he just shot Sylvia Pittston (or however you spell her name) would the ambush gone down the way it did????

HB, you are the first man in the world so far who presented to me a satisfactory justification of Susan Delgado... Without her, or without all that story, some important seeds - that after Mejis events were dormant for long but later on blossomed into flowers of compassion and love - might have never been planted. I never even thought in that direction, now looks like I have to, and maybe even have to reread W&G (though God knows I don't want to).

And yes, I think he should have died; I suspect it surpasses the limits of the present thread, but I believe this has been brought about elsewhere, too.

I've thought about that several times actually, everything would have been extremely different.

I think the wonder of this quote is that it can have so many interpretations.

The reader who knows about Susan/Tull/Jake etc: Boy, what an ironic statement.

Rosa: Sees Roland as a brave man who has agreed to save the town's children at risk of his own life and his tet, means every word.

I think the key is Roland's response, which indicates that he doesn't think he's a good man (although he may have appreciated hearing it): "I've always had the fastest hands, but at being good, I've always been a little slow."

I think its interesting to compare this quote with one from Jake and Benny when they're discussing Roland. Benny says that Roland scares him, and Jake admits that Roland scares him sometimes too. Coming from Jake, who loves Roland devotedly, I think that says a lot.

As far as what Roland can do as a gunslinger, maybe that is seen as some people see magic or nature, it's not good or bad. His ability is not good or bad, it is the person he wants to be that is good or bad, and he wants to be a good man, so she sees him as a good man.

Just a thought.