Obsession

[Letti]

Who is Roland without his obsession?

Who are we without our obsessions?
These questions are running all around in my head for days...

Can we really blame Roland for anything when we think about our own crazy things and manias??
It's a thread about obsession.
Do we create our obsessions or do they create us? Who are we without them? Do we find them or do they find us?
If Roland hadn't got hooked on the Tower... would he have found something else? Another cell?

[Storyslinger]

Obsession is what make us human.

My obsession is writing, hence the name, but even though I may be obsessed, I still find it difficult to pursue it. Ideas come and go like flowing water.

[Mike Beck]

you need to get an idea canteen to catch it all. :D

i'm obsessed with good stories, pizza, art supplies, trying to project my astral body, and coffee.

[Arthur Heath]

I hear what you are saying here Nikolett and I say thankya. In my humble opinion I don't think Roland was obsessed with finding the tower, but I think he knew his sole PURPOSE in life. Maybe their much the same and mayhap you need at least a little obsession to fulfill your purpose but I don't believe so. I think obsession, true unbridled obsession, is unhealthy. Take things in moderation and you will lead a much more healthy life. So I guess my question is can you fill a purpose in life without obsession?

[Storyslinger]

idea canteen

I like that

[Storyslinger]

I hear what you are saying here Nikolett and I say thankya. In my humble opinion I don't think Roland was obsessed with finding the tower, but I think he knew his sole PURPOSE in life. Maybe their much the same and mayhap you need at least a little obsession to fulfill your purpose but I don't believe so. I think obsession, true unbridled obsession, is unhealthy. Take things in moderation and you will lead a much more healthy life. So I guess my question is can you fill a purpose in life without obsession?


Well spoken. I see your point, and say thankya. There is a connection between obsession and purpose, but they don't rule each other. To answer your question, yes, i believe it is possible to fill you purpose without entire obsession, but let's face it, there will be some obsession in your quest to fill it.
Very insightful

[Letti]

I hear what you are saying here Nikolett and I say thankya. In my humble opinion

1. I don't think Roland was obsessed with finding the tower,

but I think he knew his sole PURPOSE in life. Maybe their much the same and mayhap you need at least a little obsession to fulfill your purpose but I don't believe so.

2. I think obsession, true unbridled obsession, is unhealthy.

Take things in moderation and you will lead a much more healthy life. So I guess my question is

3. Can you fill a purpose in life without obsession?

1. What? Oh please tell me about it more. Why do you think so? I think he was absolutely obsessed with finding the Tower. For me it's not a question so I am damn interested in your view.

2. I don't say I don't agree because there is a lot in what you say but I have questions here, too.
Why is it unhealthy?
I think there are things we cannot control. We aren"t lords we are humans.

3. What's your answer to your own question, dear?

[Arthur Heath]

I just never saw Rolands quest to the tower as an obsession. I've always seen it as his sole purpose in life. When I think of obsession, I think Rea of the Coos depleting herself staring into the Pink Grapefruit. Peeking more and more for longer periods of time even though it was destroying her. I see The Prisoner as an obsessed character. I see Eddie on a mission.

[Letti]

Is Roland the exception? Him?
He would have been able to give up everything -e-v-e-r-y-t-h-i-n-g- for it. What is it if not an obsession?

[Arthur Heath]

someone who knows how to get the job done. I do hear what you are conveying, say thankya. I never really saw it that way. You have shed new light.

[Letti]

someone who knows how to get the job done.

Why did he look for the Tower?
Just because.
Because he wanted to see it.
To feel its bricks under his palm.
It's not a job.
Eddie told him once he's a Tower junkie... a prisoner like him. I think Eddie could see into Roland's soul.

[Darkthoughts]

Well I agree it was Roland's obsession - infact, I think J, that the point was conveyed very strongly in the books, but thats whats so great about forums - you learn its never the same perception for two people :)

Without his Tower obsession what was Roland? A man who was passionate about the way of the White. Maybe not always a sympathetic man, but an honest man, and honesty is hard but just as far as I see it.

[Letti]

Without his Tower obsession what was Roland? A man who was passionate about the way of the White. Maybe not always a sympathetic man, but an honest man, and honesty is hard but just as far as I see it.
What a nice answer, Lisa.
I can feel love from your words.

[Darkthoughts]

I have endless love for Roland :rose:

[Letti]

I have endless love for Roland :rose:

You are most similar to Jake.
You have endless love for Roland.
You are hot.


*keeps thinking*

We really must be relatives. ;)

[Darkthoughts]

:lol: sisters is it then! :huglove:

[Matt]

I have endless love for Roland :rose:

You are most similar to Jake.
You have endless love for Roland.
You are hot.


*keeps thinking*

We really must be relatives. ;)

:rofl:

I love seeing stuff like this. You are right Letti, you guys have much in common.

[Mattrick]

SPOILERS


It seem there is a misinterpretation here. The tower wasn't Roland's obsession, it was his addiction. Roland even says 'the tower calls me'. An obsession doesn't call you, but an addiction does. As we all know from the ending of the book Roland continuously seeks the tower. Roland is a slave to the tower, to 'ka' and essentially admits (without outright declaring it) that he is a slave to it's whims. An addict is a slave to their addiction, often resorting to dark deeds to fulfill their needs. As we see, Roland will drop a child down a chasm and permit sacrifices so he can see the tower. Truly, I think much of his 'we have to save the universe' is a guise. If the beams break and the tower falls he cannot see it and touch it. Roland is selfish and Roland is a bad man who will continue in a cycle until he realizes he doesn't need it. When the tower falls he will be free.

[Darkthoughts]

Actually, if you look up addiction in a thesaurus, obsession is a given alternative - as are: compulsion, craving, dependance, fixation and habit.

[Jean]

I don't know yet what I think of the difference between the notions that Mattrick has given (haven't had the time to think), but I am sure distinguishing between notions is good heuristics; very often it, even when seems hair-splitting, in fact helps us understand lots of things previously concealed.

[Darkthoughts]

Well, in this context I think Mattrick's definition of an addict is no different to that of someone caught in the midst of an obsession.
Mattrick, you say: An obsession doesn't call you, but an addiction does. And I would beg to differ. An obsession overrides your mind, it posesses your thoughts, all you want to do is indulge in your obsession - thats pretty much a calling I'd say :)

[Jean]

it's not easy for me, not being a native speaker, but I would say it was obsession rather than addiction; if a distinction had to be made, I would say that you can be addicted to processes (not necessarily having a goal - such as gambling that can go on endlessly), and obsessed with something that can be completed/solved/achieved, like seeing the Tower or saving the world.

[Storyslinger]

Darkthoughts and Jean~ Love the conversation that occured above.
Great insight

[Mattrick]

Well, in this context I think Mattrick's definition of an addict is no different to that of someone caught in the midst of an obsession.
Mattrick, you say: An obsession doesn't call you, but an addiction does. And I would beg to differ. An obsession overrides your mind, it posesses your thoughts, all you want to do is indulge in your obsession - thats pretty much a calling I'd say :)

When half of your friends become addicted to heavy drugs you can then tell me obsession and addiction are the same thing. They clearly aren't. Look at the definitions.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/obsession

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/addiction

Vast differences.

An obsessed fan might so, break into a house and wait for a pop star to sleep before getting a lock of their hair or root through their garbage but there aren't too many of them willing to steal and kill to support their obsession. In the instance of drugs, a junkie may do ANYTHING in order to get a fix.

Eddie called Roland 'a tower junkie' because Eddie understand addiction and being enslaved by something.

[Darkthoughts]

When half of your friends become addicted to heavy drugs you can then tell me obsession and addiction are the same thing. They clearly aren't. Look at the definitions.
Mattrick, my dear, I love to debate - but I'm always wary of debating with someone such as yourself who appears to take everything very personally. You have no idea whether or not my friends have had such battles - yet you assume they haven't and try to belittle my opinion because of it - debate should be objective, that comment was not. As a matter of fact a close friend of mine died from his heroin addiction a few years ago...and still, obsession and addiction are very similar terms in my mind.


http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/obsession

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/addiction

Vast differences.
I wouldn't say vast at all. Also, those sites are wiki type sites that can be edited by members...I prefer to use something more solid for debates:

Encarta World English Dictionary:obsession 1. PREOCCUPATION an idea or feeling that completely occupies the mind 2. STATE OF BEING OBSESSED the state of being obsessed by sb or sth 3. UNCONTROLLABLE PERSISTENCE OF IDEA the uncontrollable persistence of an idea or emotion in the mind, sometimes associated with psychiatric disorder.

addiction 1.DRUG DEPENDANCE a state of physiological or psychological dependance on a substance, especially an illegal drug or one liable to have a damaging effect 2. DEVOTION great interest in sth to which a lot of time is devoted.

So if you check out definition 2 for each (and definition 1 for obsession to also compare to def.2 for addiction), they have a meaning in common - depends on the context.


An obsessed fan might so, break into a house and wait for a pop star to sleep before getting a lock of their hair or root through their garbage but there aren't too many of them willing to steal and kill to support their obsession. In the instance of drugs, a junkie may do ANYTHING in order to get a fix.
So breaking into someones house and taking their hair isn't theft...not to mention mildly disturbing!? Plus, look at John Lennon's murder...the product of a serious obsession. A junkie may do anything, but someone who is obsessive may do anything also - because they are both extremes of behaviour.


Eddie called Roland 'a tower junkie' becuse Eddie understand addiction and being enslaved by something.
Yes, Eddie could empathize with Roland's obsession - Roland was enslaved by the tower Eddie was enslaved by drugs. It doesn't differentiate between the two in this example really.

[Mattrick]

That isn't a wiki type site. It shows definitions from various dictionaries.

Addiction and obsession are similar but separated by a thick line. I know people who are obsessed with things and while annoying and sometimes tiresome it is hardly unhealthy. Some people are overly obsessed which can lead down an unhealthy road.

My best friend for most of my life got addicted to drugs. To the point he started stealing from everyone, every member of my family. It didn't matter what he was stealing, as long as he could get high at the end. Still, to this day since we've broken ties he's no intention of paying us back over a thousand dollars. An obsessed person does not do this. Obsessed people do not share that same desperation that addicts do. That is what separates them and defines them. I've seen a lot of people go down the road to addiction and I know the signs.

King struggled with addictions his whole life; cigarettes, booze and blow. He even alluded to it during his conversation with Roland and Eddie. King made his point to describe how similar the both of them looked. The Tower is Roland's addiction. Until he relinquishes the tower he will continue to loop. Obsession with the tower is one thing. Roland needs it, craves it, just has to see it with his own two eyes. The way Roland walked like a puppet towards the tower when he got close display how powerless he was to the Tower's whims. It's the same with a heroin addict who needs a fix and has no money; they may sell themselves, mug/steal and even go as far as injuring/killing someone. You don't see obsessed joggers mugging people for a new pair of jogging shorts.

[Matt]

What about obsessive over or under eating? That will flat kill you but I guess someone could argue that those are addictions as well.

obsession/addiction--the two seem very close to me.

[Storyslinger]

I feel a merger coming on

[Mattrick]

What about obsessive over or under eating? That will flat kill you but I guess someone could argue that those are addictions as well.



Over/Under eating is often caused by physiological and psychological reasons. Some people eat because it tastes good and thus makes them feel better; others simply have big appetites and learned no discipline. Most undereaters suffer from anorexia and bulemia (both disorders). It falls much more under addiction or habitual practises than obsession.

[Storyslinger]

Mattrick, you should get a job as a head shrink
You seem to know a lot about all this stuff

[Mattrick]

I probably should. I can analyze people and even understand why they behave the way they do. Understanding and decrypting people has always been a hobby of mine, if not my calling. I could go into psychology, already know enough about and love it but I don't think it's for me. I don't think I could listen to people all day, bitch about their problems. I'd end up having my own shrink (like Dr. Melfi) to discuss my own patients.

This is why I decided to write and hopefully direct. I'm writing a book about addiction now because of my experience with it. At least with writing I can create it all, down to the last detail. However, I wrote it with a certain ambiguity so the reader has to try and understand why the character behave the way they do through their actions and small, very breif backstory information.

Shit, I should stop now. I could talk for days about the human mind and it's workings. Or what I call (I'm sure its been dubbed before) The Human Condition. Maybe I should write a non-fiction book about it. But that would take having a doctorette, a reputation and people willing to be subjects or me.

I believe when every child is born they are blank, empty. Their initial personality is molded in infancy, mimicing their own surroundings. This is probably why personality traits of mother and father primarily, siblings secondary will imprint on a child. I always wonder how a child would turn out if you never told him Santa or related things existed. It's become that learning Santa is fake has become a stepping stone, a rung everyone must pass on the ladder of life. It's a small, almost insignificant fact in the big picture but would it make a difference in life? How would they react to holidays as a kid, would Christmas matter? What would a childhood be if Christmas was meaningless? Big wonder of mine. I'm almost afraid that if I have kids I'll be analyzing them the entire time and even more araid I'll do experiments on them. I would end up like the Chenowith family (five points if you know the reference, bonus points for knowing who Dr. Melfi is :D)

EDIT - Well, I've had my own battles with addiction, have researched it and have seen friends degrade. I've seen a lot of drunks and enough crack addicts (I live in the crack capitol of Canada, yippie) to be able to spot them on site. Right now I'm quitting the nearly six year habit of smoking. I'm not so sure what is so hard about it. I guess if you've been smoking for ten+ years. I just don't think people can tell themselves they don't need it. I've also been overweight for the last ten years of my life (though killing at the gym now for months) and knew what I had to overcome, learning self-discipline.

[Jean]

http://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k291/mishemplushem/Facilitation/backtotopic.gif
http://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k291/mishemplushem/Facilitation/thank_you-1.gif

I also wish Mattrick would be more careful about his spoilers in the future.

http://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k291/mishemplushem/Facilitation/thank_you.gif

[Brice]

I'd suggest that addiction is a form of obsession. They are similar in some ways, but have subtle differences. I think the former exists within the latter. An obsession can become an addiction. These are just my initial thoughts on the matter though.

Without question, I think Roland was addicted and had progressed past mere obsession.

[Jean]

I think - in addition to what I said here (http://www.thedarktower.org/palaver/showpost.php?p=38151&postcount=22) and Brice said in the post above - that obsession has to do with the content, and addiction with the modus operandi. You're obsessed with hope to win a million dollars, and addicted to the process of gambling. (again, if/when we have to discriminate. The two very much overlap) Or, one may be obsessed with the goal and addicted to the means of its achieving.

[Matt]

Perhaps the devision occurs at the level of a physical change. You are "addicted" to the white stuff and if you stop using it, it causes a physical change in your body.

I would be willing to draw that line but that throws out anything like sex and gambling. But I really agree that obsession is certainly the road to addiction.

[Darkthoughts]

I know people who are obsessed with things and while annoying and sometimes tiresome it is hardly unhealthy.
Thats rather a fad than an obsession - yes, there are degrees of obsession but when you go on to say this: Some people are overly obsessed which can lead down an unhealthy road. - its contradictory to the point you're trying to make. You ignored all the points I made in my last post, so I'll repeat; what of obsessive fans who murder their idols (John Lennon, example) what of spurned lovers who kill...? Obsessive compulsives whose lives are ruled by irrational behaviour? Obsession is not unhealthy? As I also said before, obsession is an extreme behaviour, by its very nature its not normal.


Obsessed people do not share that same desperation that addicts do. That is what separates them and defines them.
Not really, you're simply defining addiction as drug addiction. I'm trying to argue how similar addiction and obsession are - I don't deny they are separate - but they are both desperate states, both with potentially harmful consequences.


I could talk for days about the human mind and it's workings. Or what I call (I'm sure its been dubbed before) The Human Condition.
:D Yep, sorry to burst your bubble, but it sure has been "dubbed" that before...only for the last 100 years or so.

I believe when every child is born they are blank, empty. Their initial personality is molded in infancy, mimicing their own surroundings. This is probably why personality traits of mother and father primarily, siblings secondary will imprint on a child.
Er, yeah, this too - being one of the basic principles of behavioural psychology!


I think - in addition to what I said here (http://www.thedarktower.org/palaver/showpost.php?p=38151&postcount=22) and Brice said in the post above - that obsession has to do with the content, and addiction with the modus operandi. You're obsessed with hope to win a million dollars, and addicted to the process of gambling. (again, if/when we have to discriminate. The two very much overlap) Or, one may be obsessed with the goal and addicted to the means of its achieving.
I agree. Infact, to conclude my views on this subject I'd say that all addicts are obsessive, but not all obsessives are addicts. Therefore Mattrick, I think Letti's title for this thread - in the context of what we're discussing re: Roland and the Tower - is just as valid as it would be if she'd named it "Addiction".

[Jean]

Obsessed people do not share that same desperation that addicts do. That is what separates them and defines them.
Not really, you're simply defining addiction as drug addiction.
that was a very shrewd observation. I believe it alone could put an end to that particular argument between you two.

[Darkthoughts]

:lol: Never fear, I am now done with this argument.

[Mattrick]

Thats rather a fad than an obsession - yes, there are degrees of obsession but when you go on to say this: Some people are overly obsessed which can lead down an unhealthy road. - its contradictory to the point you're trying to make. You ignored all the points I made in my last post, so I'll repeat; what of obsessive fans who murder their idols (John Lennon, example) what of spurned lovers who kill...? Obsessive compulsives whose lives are ruled by irrational behaviour? Obsession is not unhealthy? As I also said before, obsession is an extreme behaviour, by its very nature its not normal.

Though I do not know if the person who murdered John Lennon had been stone cold sober for weeks prior to shooting him that obsession led to that alone. Drugs/alcohol can change perception, miscontrue facts and cause people to do things they wouldn't normally do. Obsessed people who commit violent acts already often have personality and mental disorders which makes them more prone to such acts. Obsession forms a much finer line with insanity than addiction.


Not really, you're simply defining addiction as drug addiction. I'm trying to argue how similar addiction and obsession are - I don't deny they are separate - but they are both desperate states, both with potentially harmful consequences.

Because in the case of Roland and the Tower it is drug addiction. The Tower is Roland's SOLE reason for existing. In the mind of a drug addict the drug is their SOLE reason for existing. It's what they think about over 80% of the time. People get addicting to everything; fast food, gum, cigarettes, coffee, toy trains, video games etc.

It doesn't make sense to be obsessed with the outcome of your addiction. That would mean you're just plain addicted. No spin on words available here.


:D Yep, sorry to burst your bubble, but it sure has been "dubbed" that before...only for the last 100 years or so.

I'm pretty well aware of that. But see, I talk from observation not a textbook. Not sure how you burst my bubble as I even said it's probably been said before.


Er, yeah, this too - being one of the basic principles of behavioural psychology!

Except for the fact it's commonly believed that genes modify behaviours, that alcoholism is passed down genetically than say, atmospherically.



I agree. Infact, to conclude my views on this subject I'd say that all addicts are obsessive, but not all obsessives are addicts. Therefore Mattrick, I think Letti's title for this thread - in the context of what we're discussing re: Roland and the Tower - is just as valid as it would be if she'd named it "Addiction".[/quote]

All addicts are obsessive but not all obsessives are addicts? I've still never met anyone that would allow kids fall into chasms because they are obsessed.

http://thesaurus.reference.com/browse/obsession

I find it funny how Obsession is a synonym for addiction but addiction isn't a synonym for obsession. Obsession = fixation, Addiction = Habit and as we all know Roland perpetually quests for the tower. Sounds more of a habit than a fixation to me.