Roland's shells - **end of series spoilers**

[ManOfWesternesse]

I'm on a full series re-read at the minute, and was reading the start of Drawing yesterday.
It just struck me, and I don't know why I never questioned this before, but is it really a realistic scenario that one single wetting of all the shells in Roland's belt (+ those already chambered in the guns) would result in such drastic effect on them?
From the moment when Roland felt the first wave hit his boots he was desperate to protect the bullets. HE was immediately convinced it could be a catastrophe. The rounds in both guns he discarded right there on the beach - after attempting to fire 3 of them from one gun, all of which failed.
He then kept the 20-odd 'dry' bullets, and put the rest from the loops (37 or so?) in his purse as 'probable' duds.

Now my question is (and I don't know if anyone here would have a reasonably definitive answer on it):-
Would one wetting REALLY do that?

I know these were presumably hand-loaded shells, but even then I'm sure they'd be crimped pretty tight on the bullet and 'reasonably' watertight?
I would have thought if they were wet like that & left wet it would be a big issue - but if they were wiped right away I'd have thought very few of them would be duds in real life?

[Jean]

It's a good question. I remember asking myself the same thing, and then I forgot it because on the background of the overall intensity of the events - a bite results in nearly-lethal fever, meeting one person entails a shootout with severed heads rolling about, while immediately another person is a mortally dangerous mixture of opposites - that first one seemed quite innocuous... I think I took it for granted, considering the general way things were developing.

[Letti]

Really good question indeed. I took it granted just like Jean.
I cannot wait to get the answer from someone who has enough knowledge.

[flaggwalkstheline]

If theyre hand made custom bullets I would think that were not made in a factory and would probably be more vulnerable to water and the elements

[ManOfWesternesse]

I thought possibly something similar flagg, but it doesn't ring very true to me. I mean Roland (or any gun carrier) would be out in all conditions where the shells in the belt loops would be weather-exposed. Seems unreasonable they might not get wet from time to time (though not immersed).
I'm just thinking it's the usual non-researched-gun-related-question by King.

[lead dealer]

Ok folks, More ramblings from the gun nut....

The problem with non sealed ammo is that it is rather supseptable to moisture. With us factory ammo the bullet is seated and crimped to almost air tight. And the primer (this is the important part) is seated so it is air tight. This is done on percision machinery in controled conditions. The millitary ammo usually goes one step further in painting the necks of the caseings (or puting some sort of sealant) where the bullet meats the caseing. And than varnishes or paints over the primer to air/ water tight the primer pocket. The old warsaw pact nations (+ china) go one step further and laquer the entire round.
Hand loads in my experence are not done to the same exacting standards to the factory presses. there is quite a lot of variences. The more the cases will vary depends on how many times the case has been reused or abused. Generaly these have a shelf life of less than a decade before the powder degrades and produces less power. Or more importantly the fragile primers degrade and no longer produce the spark nessary to ignite the powder.
Roland, who mentions that the rounds he picked up in new york (in jack morts body) were diffrent than the ones he loaded himself. Si King never mentioned Roland caring around a reloading bench, so I can accuratly assume that his reloads were done with a hand press with out the benifit of being able to resize the case. So My dear constant reader that would lead me to the assumption that these were of a loser tolerance , hence the fragile primers more prone to moisture. A dunking in salt water would render them useless quite quickly.
One thing to remember also. When one lives by the gun, even a 30% chance of the round not going off is enough to seperate you from gunslinger to corpse with a useless pistol. I can only assume that Roland knows this all to well.

Hope this helps

"Lead Dealer"
head gunsmith
Old troopoer gunsmiths

[ManOfWesternesse]

Thanks lead dealer, I was awaiting your reply on this.
I figured it would be something like this, with the 'hand loading' being the probable weak point. Whether Roland loaded these himself (I tend to doubt it - it's never mentioned), or they were loaded in Gilead years earlier (this is the most probable I think), or procured in some town along the way (less likely?)
But still, a single dunking from a single wave? I still have my doubts!
Not that it matters greatly in the wider scheme, but it's interesting to discusss/speculate.

[lead dealer]

Thankee Si,

glad I could be of assistance.

One wave; I have my doubts. Laying in wet sand for a wile did not help either.

[wag117]

i tend to agree with lead slinger on this one. being from the south, i know many people who load their own ammo, and while it works, it is never to the same standards as factory made ammunition. Considering the fact that right now, even with all the amenities we have, we can't produce ammo at home as well as in the factory, i think it is safe to assume that one good soaking would have the possibility to render Rolands rounds completely useless.

While King's general knowledge of guns is on the low side, (I was reading something earlier today in The Talisman that made me cringe, and while this wasn't necessarily King's writing, I think it's safe to assume that he looked it over and found nothing wrong with it) I think this time he is more or less on the money, maybe exaggerating the effect on the bullets a little bit, if at all, to advance his plot.

[ManOfWesternesse]

OK, thanks for the input.
I guess home-loaded-ammo is a LOT more volatile than I would have thought.

[wag117]

I don't think volatile is the correct word to use here, lol. I believe susceptible would be more accurate. Remember, water can get into pretty much any hole, no matter how small. Places nothing else would really be able to.

The powder wouldn't be able to get out, a spark wouldn't be able to get in. I think water is pretty much the worst thing that could happen to a bullet, besides, you know, it accidentally going off.

[lead dealer]

The worst thing you can hear in a gunfight is a sickining "click" when expecting a defffining "bang". When ones salvation depends on the bullet actualy leaving the muzzle, this is bad....

wag117, welcome Good to have more gun junkies here!

[John Blaze]

wag117, welcome Good to have more gun junkies here!

ditto

[wag117]

thanks for the welcome lead dealer.

I know this is off topic, but it is almost, almost on topic.

never been in a gunfight, but it is VERY down heartening to be staring down the sights of your muzzle loader, a deer lined up perfectly, and pull the trigger only to hear a *SNAP*. It's happened to me more than once, (my caps used to have a bad habit of falling off the primer.)

I can't imagine how much that would break the heart of a gunslinger.

[John Blaze]

thanks for the welcome lead dealer.

I know this is off topic, but it is almost, almost on topic.

never been in a gunfight, but it is VERY down heartening to be staring down the sights of your muzzle loader, a deer lined up perfectly, and pull the trigger only to hear a *SNAP*. It's happened to me more than once, (my caps used to have a bad habit of falling off the primer.)

I can't imagine how much that would break the heart of a gunslinger.i know the feeling. I was hunting feral hogs with my sks barely a month ago when i got two dry snaps in a row.

fucken wolf ammo.....

[wag117]

thanks for the welcome lead dealer.

I know this is off topic, but it is almost, almost on topic.

never been in a gunfight, but it is VERY down heartening to be staring down the sights of your muzzle loader, a deer lined up perfectly, and pull the trigger only to hear a *SNAP*. It's happened to me more than once, (my caps used to have a bad habit of falling off the primer.)

I can't imagine how much that would break the heart of a gunslinger.i know the feeling. I was hunting feral hogs with my sks barely a month ago when i got two dry snaps in a row.

fucken wolf ammo.....

ouch. and hunting feral hogs is actually dangerous. Those critters can hurt a man, real bad. My grandfather just traps 'em. A lot safer. Most of the time.

He caught himself in one of his hog traps once. . . .:rofl:

[lead dealer]

Whats even worse is when the lousy 9mm dose go off and the assaliant is hit, yet remains standing......... His hand reaching toward the charging handel of his ak......... :arg:

Never had any issues with the tula arsenel cast offs (wolf ammo inc.) Their 7.62X39 dose have the hard millitary primers. Most sks sereis rifles when they get crudded (offical us gov't term) will soften the blow of the firing pin. Had a yougo m56/66 wander in with that problem. Quick dunk in the parts washer cured that problem.

When hunting something with "2nd strike capibility" ie: anything that can hurt you back, remember the rules for a gunfight.

1: bring a gun, A good one. And plenty of ammo.

2: Bring a back up for the first gun.

3: If you expect to kill anyone with one, bring a pistol where the caliber begins with a "4" or better.

4: Bring freinds that follow the same rules.
:thumbsup:

[pinkymcfatfat]

My dad re-loaded his own shells. I ran this question past him years ago and he always said that even a good drenching from a rain storm could have destroyed Roland's bullets.

[ManOfWesternesse]

Yeah, I guess the evidence is that King researched this one right!
I would never have guessed they'd be so vulnerable to wetting.

[lead dealer]

one of the few gun things he DID reserch well.... Or a rather well placed geuss.

Anyways, since my last posting. I have had some of my reloads start to go "pop" instead of bang..... I geuss this is what I get for casting my own bullets and useing cheap powder..... Thant and forgot about them for a few years....:doh:

[pinkymcfatfat]

My dad didn't cast his own bullets, but he did have a quirk about making re-loads.

He rarely made any from about April to October. Pennsylvania is notorious for incredibly humid summers. He thought it made a difference in the powder. From November to March he'd check and see what the weather forcast was going to be for the day before and after he was re-loading.

Our local TV weather got cursed out and things thrown at him well more than once.

[DoctorDodge]

You know, it's times like these, when i'm on a board about my favourite book series, learning a lot about guns, how they work, and just how easy it is to end up down shit's creek without a paddle if you've got soaked hand made bullets, that remind me why this board is so fucking brilliant!

Cheers for the info, lead dealer and wag117! Seriously, being a Brit where guns are rarer than quarters (which, funnily enough, i actually have one of the latter, though i don't know how!), it's nice to know a little information about that kind of stuff.

[lead dealer]

we try... that was the intended intention for theses forums: the exchange of good information! Trust me, you have any gun questions, there are a few of us that can answer them...

[Myrtok]

Yes, Mr. King got it right when he ruined Roland's bullets by wetting them, but I think it was more blind luck than research. He makes a big mistake when he lets Roland go to New York City later on and buy modern bullets for his gun.

In the "cowboy era" cartriges were loaded with black powder, which is far less powerful than the modern "smokeless powder" which would have been in the four boxes of modern bullets Roland "purchased." While it's possible that Roland was using modern smokeless powder all along, it's highly doubtful since his society lacked the tech base for the chemically sophisticated process of manufacturing it (black powder is relatively easy to make). It also seems unlikely that he had smokeless powder bullets left over from before the world moved on, since even modern bullets do have a shelf life.

When Eddie saw Rolands guns, he thought they looked like antiques. This further suggests that they were designed for use with black powder. If Roland had fired modern shells from a revolver designed in the black powder era, the worst case scenario would be that his gun would be destroyed by the far higher pressure exerted by modern rounds. At the very least, he would have had to learn to aim all over again, since his rounds would have flown much farther using modern ammunition.

Mr. King's biggest oversight, which made me cringe every time Roland did it, was that Roland routinely threw away the expended brass or dud rounds from his gun. Surely someone in his position would have saved every brass for future reloading.

[Letti]

While it's possible that Roland was using modern smokeless powder all along, it's highly doubtful since his society lacked the tech base for the chemically sophisticated process of manufacturing it (black powder is relatively easy to make).

I am not sure about that at all. Okay, there were nor cell phones neither cars in Roland's world but there were some very intelligent robots. Technology used to be on a very high level over there. It was different from ours but still very modern.

(Anyway I don't doubt SK made mistakes while he was writing these parts.)

[lead dealer]

yet Roland was using shells that were loaded in our world in the 1970's. They were probably not black powder. Just because it looks old dose not mean it is necessarily black powder. The colt in my avatar is made in 1917. yet looks like a western gun.

When I bring my ww1 guns out to the range most of the shooters that were brought up in the "black rifle/ synthetic" era think I am shooting a civil war gun.. No accounting for taste I suppose. Not what your used to and has wood on it= antique.

In the grand scheme of things smokeless powder is not that much more difficult to make. The french made the first smokeless rifle cartage in the 1880's. In the era of our single action colt, black powder handguns.

[Brice]

Mr. King's biggest oversight, which made me cringe every time Roland did it, was that Roland routinely threw away the expended brass or dud rounds from his gun. Surely someone in his position would have saved every brass for future reloading.

Really I would expect him to throw them away. They were excess useless weight. He had no way of knowing when/if they could be reloaded and he could just as likely find new bullets as find what he'd need to reload I would think.

[Savvy]

I don't think Roland would have put his life at risk or the tower by seeing if the bullets worked...make sense? :(

[Myrtok]

Mr. King's biggest oversight, which made me cringe every time Roland did it, was that Roland routinely threw away the expended brass or dud rounds from his gun. Surely someone in his position would have saved every brass for future reloading.

Really I would expect him to throw them away. They were excess useless weight. He had no way of knowing when/if they could be reloaded and he could just as likely find new bullets as find what he'd need to reload I would think.

Working my way through a re-read of the series, and came across this in Wizard and Glass:

When the ka-tet is walking down the turnpike that is surrounded by a thinny, Roland removes some of the old wet bullets to put in their ears. The bullets from New York don't work, but Roland's do because they are from his world, even though they have been reloaded many times over the years.

[Brice]

Hmm...I hadn't noticed that reloaded part before.