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Matt
08-03-2007, 11:59 AM
For some reason I have been thinking about this and I am wondering if you guys think it is possible.

What I mean is, assuming we could do it would you simply change the past in this timeline or create a new one? The theory being that no matter what you did in the past, it would not effect the present because it would create a different timeline.

Some would believe it is the same and you can totally fuck up the present.

While the Terminator may be a horrible example, lets use it for the sake of discussion.

So, in the first movie. The guy comes back to stop the Terminator from killing Sarah Connor. Was he Johns father the first time around? Not likely because he wasn't born yet the first time through.

So here is the question--did the act of sending the Terminator and the guy to the past create a new time line where Armageddon happened in a totally different way but, of course, John Conner was still the head of the resistance because that's the same no matter what happens.

Daghain
08-03-2007, 12:19 PM
Whatever you smoked at lunch, could you please send me some? Just kidding. :)

I would not change the past in this timeline because you don't know what you may screw up going forward. And if I somehow managed to accidentally stop the Internet from being created, I'd be really bummed. :)

If you instead could create a different timeline, then I guess it would be kind of interesting to see what kind of different outcomes could come from changing a thing here and there.

Matt
08-03-2007, 12:21 PM
:cool:

That is exactly what I mean. I believe that any change to the past simply creates a new time line that includes the change.

That you would not be screwing up the present because the "present" that you left would no longer be the time line you existed on.

Like missing a bus

Letti
08-03-2007, 12:25 PM
I don't think it's possible but I don't say it's bad to play with the idea.
If I could I would never go back... I don't have the right to do such a thing and I wouldn't be able to see the harms I could cause.

Matt
08-03-2007, 12:33 PM
But...what if you could go back and not have to worry about the present you left because no matter what you did, it would not have a bearing on it?

The time line you left could never be once you went back because you weren't in the past in the "present" you left.

I read a book called "Outlander" once about a British woman that went back into the passed several centuries. And changed things of course. When given the oppritunity to go back, she didn't because she figured that her "present" no longer existed on this timeline

I think Michal Criton (sp?) had a book on this subject as well

Letti
08-03-2007, 12:40 PM
If you ask me there is always a bearing whatever you do. If you have power in your hands.. do you see? Does it make any sense?

Matt
08-03-2007, 12:42 PM
Oh yeah, I totally see what you mean.

I believe every decision we make as individuals has a bearing on the future of this time line. So you are correct, we have to be careful with our actions in the present regardless of the answer to this question.

Letti
08-03-2007, 12:46 PM
We can't escape from responsibility. Wherever we step.. we leave our footprint there.
Sometimes it means nothing sometimes it means everything.

Matt
08-03-2007, 12:51 PM
I totally agree, my question was about time lines but you are correct, there will always be a record of our passing.

However, if you went into the past and say...assassinated a horrible dictator, trying to make it so a war wouldn't happen in the present. I do not believe that would be possible because the war happened in the time line you left, no changing that.

What you would have at that point, is a new time line

Letti
08-03-2007, 12:56 PM
Yes... but maybe if you kill one dictator you can give a life (a chance) to another one who ( got lost in the past because others were quicker and they were at the right place and the right time) is foxier much more evil and who can kill more people or who can lead and influance the whole world for much longer...
Hm?

Matt
08-03-2007, 01:10 PM
Yes, that is correct. I think we totally agree Letti.

My question was just weather or not the existing time line you left would be affected by changes in the past or if it wouldn't because any changes you made would create a new timeline.

I love the question of weather or not we should do it but that isn't exactly what I was wondering about here. :couple:

Letti
08-03-2007, 01:20 PM
If you had the chance... would you? *looks at you with big curious eyes*

Matt
08-03-2007, 01:29 PM
If I had the chance? I would not unless I could take my beautiful wife.

However, I would not be concerned with changing the present because I do not believe it would. I would just be concerned about leaving her behind. :(

If her and I could go together, I might.

Letti
08-03-2007, 01:37 PM
And if you could take her why would you try it out? Because of the advantage?

Matt
08-03-2007, 01:40 PM
Oh no, and not to change anything either (because I don't believe you can).

Just for the experience. However, we would have to realize there was no way we would ever see our present again

Just adventure :D

MonteGss
08-03-2007, 08:50 PM
Interesting discussion. I would do it only for the experience. I would do it simply to observe, to see things that happened, live. I would just hope that the simple fact of me being in the past would not alter anything in the future. I would do my best to "stay on the sidelines" and just observe. Perhaps that could be possible...
What a learning experience that would be! Like, World History 101...LIVE! :)

Matt
08-04-2007, 06:16 AM
So you believe it would change the present in your timeline?

MonteGss
08-04-2007, 07:02 AM
Oh, I'm not sure about that. I suppose if there was interaction with others it would change the timeline. My goal/desire would be to not be noticed while I watch from the sidelines and learn. Maybe I'd have to be dim or wear an invisibility cloak or something. :)

Mordred Deschain
08-05-2007, 05:35 PM
Don't you guys all know that we are really hooked up to machines and what you think is real is just computer program. Hey, has anyone seen Morpheus?

On the Terminator. It's an interesting question about the first guy being Conners father. Because it had to start somehow. But, on the different time lines. If other timelines were created, in each movie we were seeing the new timeline after things were changed. Well, and that's if things really did change. The movies might be how it happens everytime. The only have limited information on the events that happend.

I know there is a lot of things that we as humans do not understand or have not unlocked. But I do not think it's possible.

Daghain
08-05-2007, 07:14 PM
My head hurts. :)

Matt
08-06-2007, 07:49 AM
On the Terminator. It's an interesting question about the first guy being Conners father. Because it had to start somehow. But, on the different time lines. If other timelines were created, in each movie we were seeing the new timeline after things were changed. Well, and that's if things really did change. The movies might be how it happens everytime. The only have limited information on the events that happend.

Exactly!! The Terminator basically tells him that in the 3rd movie. The first timeline was changed when she had her baby by the guy--the second was changed when they blew up sysodine. It went a head and happened the third way.

So the "bad guys" who sent the first Terminator to save their cause never would have realized the benefits because nothing can change their timeline. Its already happened.

Darkthoughts
08-08-2007, 05:51 AM
Interesting!...and confusing! :lol:

So really, using the Terminator example still, they were going back in time to change events for an assumed outcome, right? Like, how did they know how things would be if Sarah Connor hadn't of been killed, when in their when she already has been. How did they know she was the one they needed to save (I really need to watch terminator again).

Also what your saying about the timeline not being able to be changed - if you go back and change something to purposely affect outcomes in the time line you came from, and you were sucessful (pressuming in this case you could change the timeline) would you then have to remain in the past as the future you were from no longer existed? Uh-oh...now I've gone all Back to the Future :lol:

Btw, Timeline is the Michael Crighton book, its very good. Also theres a Ray Bradbury short story about time travel (I can't remember the name) that illustrates the possible ill effects of interferring with the past.

Jean
08-08-2007, 05:55 AM
Also theres a Ray Bradbury short story about time travel (I can't remember the name) that illustrates the possible ill effects of interferring with the past.
must be A Sound of Thunder.

Most time-travel paradoxes will be resolved if we assume that every travel to the past creates new timeline (alternative universe). That, however, will create new paradoxes, but at least they will be different.

Darkthoughts
08-08-2007, 05:58 AM
:huglove: I knew you'd know!! Its in the Machinery's of Joy collection I'm sure. (A Miracle of Rare Device is actually my favourite story in there).

Matt
08-08-2007, 01:11 PM
Also theres a Ray Bradbury short story about time travel (I can't remember the name) that illustrates the possible ill effects of interferring with the past.
must be A Sound of Thunder.

Most time-travel paradoxes will be resolved if we assume that every travel to the past creates new timeline (alternative universe). That, however, will create new paradoxes, but at least they will be different.

I agree with this completely

PedroPáramo
08-08-2007, 04:15 PM
For some reason I have been thinking about this and I am wondering if you guys think it is possible.

What I mean is, assuming we could do it would you simply change the past in this timeline or create a new one? The theory being that no matter what you did in the past, it would not effect the present because it would create a different timeline.

Some would believe it is the same and you can totally fuck up the present.

While the Terminator may be a horrible example, lets use it for the sake of discussion.

So, in the first movie. The guy comes back to stop the Terminator from killing Sarah Connor. Was he Johns father the first time around? Not likely because he wasn't born yet the first time through.

So here is the question--did the act of sending the Terminator and the guy to the past create a new time line where Armageddon happened in a totally different way but, of course, John Conner was still the head of the resistance because that's the same no matter what happens.
Isn't that the theory of the man that claimed that he was a timetravel?
I mean John Titor.

Matt
08-08-2007, 05:01 PM
John Titor?

OchrisO
08-08-2007, 06:01 PM
John Titor?


http://www.johntitor.com/


It makes for some interesting reading if nothing else, especially given some of the stuff he predicted back then.


He was basically this guy that started posting on a messageboard saying that he was a time traveler and predicted a bunch of stuff in the year 2000-2001 about stuff starting in 2004, a number of which have happened, including the mad cow outbreaks a while back and some other stuff. Here's the section of wikipedia on his predictions:


[edit] Predictions
Although Titor made numerous predictions, he also explained that time travel was also always a travel into alternate universes or "world lines" with a varying amount of alternate history:

"[...]The grandfather paradox is impossible. In fact, all paradox is impossible. The Everett-Wheeler-Graham or multiple world theory is correct. All possible quantum states, events, possibilities and outcomes are real, eventual and occurring. The chances of everything happening someplace at sometime in the superverse is 100%."[3]

Thus, many of his descriptions of the time between 2000 and 2036 are techinically descriptions of the past on his world line and only function as predictions in that he believed that the two were similar enough that he would be more-or-less correct[4].

The most immediate of Titor's predictions was of an upcoming civil war having to do with "order and rights"[5]. He described it as beginning in 2004[6] with civil unrest surrounding the presidential election. This civil conflict that he characterizes as "having a Waco type event every month that steadily gets worse"[7] will be "pretty much at everyone's doorstep"[8] by 2008.

This civil war, according to Titor, will then end in 2015 with a brief, but intense, World War III:

"In 2015, Russia launches a nuclear strike against the major cities in the United States (which is the "other side" of the civil war from my perspective), China and Europe. The United States counter attacks. The US cities are destroyed along with the AFE (American Federal Empire)...thus we (in the country) won. The European Union and China were also destroyed."[9]

.

Since Omaha, Nebraska is the nation's new capital city in John's time[10], it is reasonable to assume that Omaha was spared in this attack.

Titor is vague as to the exact motivations and causes for World War III. At one point he characterized hostilities as being led by "border clashes and overpopulation"[11] but also points to the present conflict between Arabs and Jews as a harbinger of World War III[12]:

"Real disruptions in world events begin with the destabilization of the West as a result of degrading US foreign policy and consistency. [...] The Jewish population in Israel is not prepared for a true offensive war. They are prepared for the ultimate defense. Wavering western support for Israel is what gives Israel's neighbors the confidence to attack. The last resort for a defensive Israel and its offensive Arab neighbors is to use weapons of mass destruction. In the grand scheme of things, the war in the Middle East is a part of what's to come, not the cause."
These are taken from John Titor's original statements and summarized.

The 2004 Olympics, will be the last held. All others will be cancelled due to rising global tensions.
In the United States, civil unrest will begin mounting in 2004. The people of the countryside avoid open conflict with the federal police and national guard, while the people of the cities abandon civil liberties willingly under the guise of national security.
A Second American Civil War, lasting from 2004 to 2015, will manifest itself in a violent division between the large cities/urban areas against the countryside/rural areas. As a 13-year old, in 2011, Titor himself fought with the "Fighting Diamondbacks", a shotgun infantry of Florida, for at least four years. However, the ferocity of the civil war meant that Titor spent most of this time in hiding instead.
The Second American Civil War has a knock-on effect which destablises all Western Civilization, both in economics and politics. This in turn assists the escalation of global conflict.
When asked about any significance to the year 2012 (in regards to the ancient Mayan calendar which ends and then restarts in 2012), Titor confirmed that something happens but remained vague and only alluded to the parting of the Red Sea.
World War III breaks out in 2015; a gradual global political escalation that was ended by Russia bombing American, European, and Chinese cities (an event referred to as "N Day".
Sometime before this point, China invades and conquers Japan, both Koreas, and Taiwan.
Australia successfully repels a Chinese invasion.
Russia declares war on at least three other world powers; these include the United States, the European Union and China. However it is not made clear what point all four powers enter the war except that China is one of the primary aggressors.
Many major US cities are destroyed (although the only cities specifically named as being ruined are the capital Washington DC, and Jacksonville, Florida).
Titor was somewhere near Jacksonville in Florida when a Russian nuclear warhead fell on it.
Chemical and biological weapons are used, and some "non-lethal" weapons turn out to be quite lethal.
The political and economic structure of the European Union is utterly destroyed in the bombardment, as is also the case in China.
By the end of the war, almost 3 billion people are dead.
Post-war
Communities of survivors gather and grow around universities, renamed to "Forts" due to the presence of army garrisons that are placed there to protect the populations.
The United States splits into five regions based on various factors and differing military objectives.
The US Constitution is changed by a Constitutional Convention.
A President is elected for each of the five major areas of the US on a rotating schedule.
The powers of the union government are more defined and reside at the county and state level.
The Vice President is elected separately.
The US Capital is in Omaha, Nebraska.
Life in 2036:
Society
Military service plays a large part in day-to-day life.
Capital punishment is still implemented.
Communities have returned to a family/community centered state.
Spanish becomes more common in Texas.
Economy
US exports have restarted by 2036. The main trader with the US is their old enemy, Russia.
Religion and Beliefs
Religion is far more personal and plays a major part in day-to-day life.
The Ten Commandments have been "restored to the 10 that God gave Moses."
Sabbatarianism, or worship on Saturday, is a common practice.
Technology
Wireless internet is ubiquitous.
Television and telephony are delivered via the Web.
Books and other hard media are now distributed online and printed from local hubs.
Electric power is generated on a local level with vast improvments in hydrogen and solar power production
Environment
The environment is heavily affected by radiation. The lack of safe drinkable water is the biggest environmental issue.
Global warming has had little effect. Temperature is about a few degrees cooler world wide.
Health
The birth rate is much lower, due to a high number of birth defects and stillbirths.
Mad Cow disease, or vCJD in humans, is a devastating public health problem. Titor stated that even in the year 2000, he would not eat processed meat.
A cure for AIDS had not been found, although large progress in the areas of curing cancer had taken place.

[edit] Time Machine
According to Titor's posts, the basic components of his time machine included:

Magnetic housing units for dual microsingularities.
Electron injection manifold to alter mass and gravity of microsingularities.
Cooling and x-ray venting system
Gravity sensors (VGL system)
Main clocks (4 cesium units)
Main computer units (3)



I'm not sure how I feel about it all, but it is certainly interesting.
Some of the stuff he talks about was wrong, like the Olympics. He also talked about different possible timelines or some such. It has been a while since I looked at it.

Erin
08-08-2007, 06:10 PM
That John Titor stuff is really interesting.

PedroPáramo
08-08-2007, 11:49 PM
I remebered he said something about the day that American's troops went away from Irak.
Anyway I love all the timetravel theories.

Darkthoughts
08-09-2007, 10:53 AM
I find that quite frightening, whether or not I believe it to be true y'know?

Letti
08-13-2007, 01:40 PM
Also theres a Ray Bradbury short story about time travel (I can't remember the name) that illustrates the possible ill effects of interferring with the past.
must be A Sound of Thunder.

Most time-travel paradoxes will be resolved if we assume that every travel to the past creates new timeline (alternative universe). That, however, will create new paradoxes, but at least they will be different.

I adore you, Jean. :lol:

Erin
08-14-2007, 03:48 PM
Most time-travel paradoxes will be resolved if we assume that every travel to the past creates new timeline (alternative universe). That, however, will create new paradoxes, but at least they will be different.

If anyone is interested in reading something about what Jean just mentioned, check out Chuck Palahniuk's newest book, Rant: An Oral Biography of Buster Casey. It's incredibly interesting.

Aesculapius
11-22-2007, 10:17 AM
If I had the chance? I would not unless I could take my beautiful wife.

However, I would not be concerned with changing the present because I do not believe it would. I would just be concerned about leaving her behind. :(

If her and I could go together, I might.

I may be misunderstanding this hypothetical, but, if you and your wife left this present timeline, that would change the present for the ones who know you and your wife, correct?

Matt
11-22-2007, 10:22 AM
Well..."the present" is a term really up for discussion anyway isn't it?

But the future of the present timeline would be disrupted because we left it for sure.

Aesculapius
11-22-2007, 10:30 AM
I think any term is up for discussion. :lol:

Mister E
11-25-2007, 08:50 AM
I think any term is up for discussion. :lol:

"If Marge marries Artie...I'll never be born!" -Homer :D

Aesculapius
12-04-2007, 01:00 AM
^:lol:

Kalachakra Mandala and Time Machines / Time travel:


Tibetans revere this ephermeral Particle Mandala as a sacred object in itself. The believe that it is healing to the ordinary person, and is the subliminal trigger of the visualisation power of the initiate. They believe that anyone who beholds it withgood will and faith will be reborn during the Tibetan "New Age" time of fruition, known as the Golden Age of Shambala. And, most generally, they believe that just to behold it plants a genetic impulse toward enlightenment in the mind stream of any sentient being.

In texts, it is said that Mandalas can be painted, made of particles, made of samadhi - of the subtle stuff of inwardly visualised imagery- or made in the visionary restructuring of the human nervous system. The first two of these are two-dimensional blueprints, and the latter two are three-dimensional, imaginary models of the spatial environment that is the actual Mandala. In the special case of the Kalachakra, there is a fifth type of Mandala, the architectural, three-dimensional Mandala made of wood jewels, clay, or other substances. It is believed that the two-dimensional Mandalas have a remarkable power to intensify the power of the Imagination of the beholder, to stimulate the confident creativity needed by the practitioner to visualize the three-dimensional Mandala. In looking at such Mandalas, it is helpful to remember that they are models for contemplative visualisation practice.

The adept develops the ability, through stabilised concentration and cultivated inner vision, to see him or herself as present within a perfected environment, a majestic palace made of pure jewel-light substance, surrounded by Perfected companions, and completely secure from any ordinary disturbance and interference. This kind of ideal aesthetic environment is not considered an end in itself, but is only the physical situation needed for the perfection-stage yogas of unfolding the deepest inner sensitivities of the central nervous system.

Of the four main types of Mandalas, the particle Mandala is deemed most essential for the purpose of initiating or anointing practitioners, thus enabling them to engage in the study of the Tantra. Tantric monastic universities in Tibet had to maintain the artistic traditions needed for making particle Mandalas. The keys to the intentionally cryptic, precise geometrical instructions for the ground plan had to be memorised and transmitted from generation to generation. Monk-artists of talent had to be selected and trained. And the techniques had to be constantly refined.

While more research needs to be done on the early development of the particle Mandala, it is likely that the earliest form in India was made by hand with coloured chalks on the ground by a tantric guru as part of the ritual of initiation of his or her disciples. Sometimes it may have been a large, simple sacred circle, which would actually be entered during the ritual. Thus the actual forms of the Mandalas must have been fairly crude, although the ritual itself infused each line with mystical energy and profound significance. The basic purpose is to create a sacred space within which the creative imagination can assert its power over substance. Within the world of the Mandala, the guru is no ordinary human, but becomes indivisible with the Buddha paradigm, here the Buddha Kalachakra-Vishvamata couple. When initiants are brought in blindfolded, they are instructed to set aside the conventional imagination of the ordinary world and the ordinary self and to visualise themselves as the Kalachakra Buddha. The whole experience is enormously detailed, taking months to prepare and several days to perform, and the initiant ideally should enter prolonged contemplative retreat afterward.

At some point in the tradition in India, great masters such as the pandit Abhayakaragupta began the practice of making miniature Mandalas, too small for persons actually to enter, but provided a vivid blueprint for a three-dimensional visualised Mandala within which the ritual is imagined to be taking place. This miniature Mandala, undisturbed by physical entrance, could be rendered in much greater detail, with much finer technique. It is fairly certain that this type of sand-particle painting was done with the fingers in India. Tibetan practitioners today demonstrate extraordinary skill in making delicate details using just their fingers. However, it seems that only in Tibet was the cone-shaped, fine-tipped funnel employed to make a line of extreme delicacy and flexibility. With this instrument and extreme patience and skill, Tibetan artists have been able to make these amazingly complex and vivid particle Mandalas. [...].

In this Kalachakra Mandala, the central chamber is a circle containing a vajra with an orange dot at the left, which symbolise Kalachakra and Vishvamata (Time Machine and All-Mother) archetype Buddhas. Around the circle are eight lotus petals, on which dots stand for the eight Shakti goddesses, symbolising the compassionate energies of the enlightened heart. Other little flowers and dots refer to the other deities of the mind Mandala- palace, the first of the three concentric buildings in the Mandala. This building can be recognised by the three-storied arched gates that are depicted two-dimensionally, lying down outward from the actual doorways of the building.

The next building, moving outward, is the speech Mandala-palace, which has eight eight-petaled lotuses, on which stand the sixty-four speech goddesses, eight per lotus. Each group is ranged around a center, supporting a divine couple in which the female deity is the dominant partner. The third and outermost building, the body Mandala-palace, has twelve, twenty-eight-petaled lotuses, on which the three hundred sixty deities of the days of the years are dancing, each lotus supporting twenty-eight goddesses dancing around a deity couple in the center, with the male deity as the dominant partner. The lotuses represent the twelve months. Outside of that is a ring composed of various elements, on which eighty-eight mantric, Sanskrit seed syllables refer to eighty-eight deities associated with the planets, lunar mansions, zodiacal signs, and mythical pantheons common to a number of Asian civilisations. Sanskrit syllables standing in white galleries outside the walls of the speech and body palaces represent various offering deities. The entire Mandala contains a divine community of seven hundred twenty-two deities, all of whom are emanations of the central archetype Buddha couple.

There are said to be three levels of interpretation of the Kalachakra symbolism, the "outer," the "inner," and the "other." The outer level relates to the entire universe as understood in ancient India, hence it incorporates many elements of Indian astronomy and astrology. Thus the Mandala becomes a simulacrum of the universe, through which cosmic energies can be turned toward the good. The inner level relates to the subtle nervous system of the yogic practitioner, incorporating the inner landscape of nerve channels, energies, and essences. It thus serves as a template for the aesthetic restructuring of the enlightened sensitivity. The "other" level relates to the stages and practices of the path from ordinariness to Kalachakra Buddhahood.

The Kalachakra perfected universe or Buddha land is intended to provide the ideal symbolic environmental matrix, built from transcendent wisdom's five jewel-coloured, laserlike energies from which universal compassion can most effectively reach out to all sentient beings to nudge their histories in the direction of evolutionary progress toward complete enlightenment. As its name indicates, it is a Time Machine - the Sanskrit chakra, "Wheel" is used by extension to mean "machine" - not in the science-fiction sense that it travels through time, but in the special sense that it is the artistic creation with which universal compassion turns time into a machine to produce the enlightenment of all sentient beings.

http://tom.bremen.de/info/nepal/Gallery-2/Wrathful/5-15/Chak-SW.JPG