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John_and_Yoko
06-06-2008, 10:06 PM
If you saw another post in the Clearing with a similar title, disregard it. It isn't spam, I just wasn't sure where to post, and anyway it explains my problem. Hopefully this lengthy review will be better placed here, though I hope it's not too long. Anyway, here it is:





The Dark Tower: A Mythology for a Modern World



For my birthday this year, I received The Dark Tower by Stephen King, and four and a half months later I finished reading it.

No, not reading. Experiencing.

For The Dark Tower (it’s seven volumes, but one narrative) can only truly be called an experience. It is a very unique tale amongst all fiction, combining the whimsy of The Neverending Story with the sophistication of The Lord of the Rings. Right from the beginning—“The man in black fled across the desert, and the gunslinger followed”—we the readers know we’re in for a ride, as such an opening sentence calls to mind the openings of such popular fantasies as The Hobbit and The Last Unicorn.

And yet from the get-go we’re also prepared for a very different sort of fantasy from the above examples. No traditional elves, wizards, kings, or unicorns to be found here. Those are all staples from the Old World fairy tales and mythologies that have pervaded much of modern fantasy and which, while still popular (note the Harry Potter phenomenon, to be discussed later), are harder to relate to in this day and age, especially in America.
As an American myself, I can vouch for this—while I can describe such above-mentioned fantasy creatures, I cannot truly explain what they are, or why they are said to exist. Like God Himself, they just are, and must be accepted as real in the tales in which they exist, in order for the tales to be appreciated. How are elves immortal? Why can wizards perform magic? How is it that a unicorn has only one horn? I don’t know, and the tales which feature them couldn’t tell me.

Not so with The Dark Tower. While fantastic creatures, such as can only have sprung from the mind of the most popular and successful author of our time, do exist in this tale, all are justified—slow mutants are the descendants of humans who were exposed to radiation, for example, or taheen are a cross between humans and demons from the empty spaces between the various worlds. While fanciful, there is at least a rudimentary scientific explanation for the existence of each, which is very helpful for readers to accept creatures the likes of which are unique to King’s epic.
At any rate it is the human characters who are of prime importance, and here again we have an atypical sort of fantasy tale. No pseudo-medieval setting this—the word “gunslinger” in the first sentence, the first chapter, and the first volume of the tale proves it. This is a uniquely American myth, something for which there is a dearth anymore, but which is arguably needed in our cold, calculating age of computers, the internet, and iPods, technology which leaves little room left for wonder, heroism, God, life itself. All this is addressed in King’s magnum opus as well.

But at the beginning, this tale owes its imagery to the “Old West” of American history, and more notably to so-called “spaghetti westerns” such as Sergio Leone’s film The Good, the Bad, and the Ugly, starring Clint Eastwood as The Man With No Name. King himself has said that it was such a character who inspired his protagonist, Roland Deschain of Gilead that Was, the last gunslinger in a world that has “moved on.” What that means is explained later on, but the point here is that Roland is no paragon of virtue dressed in white who can do no wrong, but this will be addressed later.
While the exact imagery—the desert, the gunslinger, etc.—owe their existence to a period in America’s past, Mid-World (a possible nod to Tolkien’s Middle-earth and the primary setting of The Dark Tower) appears to be set in a possible far future of our world (if it can be said to be our world at all). Technology exists, but primarily as relics from the “Great Old Ones” of the past—even something as simple as paper, which we have taken for granted for many years in our world is scarce in Roland’s, and worth more indeed than gold. And yet gunslingers, in their time, resembled medieval knights such as those of Arthur’s Round Table. Indeed, “Arthur Eld,” as he’s called here, is a legendary figure in Mid-World, and is Roland’s ancestor. Such a unique yet internally consistent blend of the old and the new is only one of many seen throughout the epic.

Returning to the beginning of the tale (itself a theme found within the epic, as we’ll see), the opening sentence deftly introduces the villain, setting, and hero of the tale in such a way that we the Constant Readers (as King calls us) can picture them, but that leaves us wanting more, wanting to continue the trek through 4000 pages which might seem daunting at first. Who is “the man in black”? Where is the desert, and why does the man in black flee across it? And who is the gunslinger, and why does he follow?
All we might guess after this one sentence is that the man in black (a description of several villains in Westerns and other tales) is some sort of villain, and perhaps he flees the gunslinger (presumably our hero) for whatever reason. But no typical hero and villain are these. The man in black, as we come to learn, is a wicked sorcerer named Walter o’Dim, who has participated in the ruination of Roland’s world and his life—thereby speeding up the process of the “moving on” that his world has done. The fact that Walter is a sorcerer already suggests the fantastic element in what might otherwise appear from its opening sentence to be a simple (however well-told) Western tale.

As for the gunslinger, Roland, he is a mystery to us at first. In fact, it is not for a long time that we learn his name or that he is called by his name in the narrative text—initially he is simply “the gunslinger.” He might be any gunslinger, and in light of later developments in the tale, this abstract description is an apt one. Roland is an everyman, defining himself by his job—more precisely, he defines himself by his quest, his purpose in life, namely to reach the Dark Tower of the title. He so defines himself throughout the tale—even as he changes over the course of his story, this fact remains constant. Here again, we have commentary on the real world, in which many people (especially many men) tend to define themselves by their jobs, by what they have chosen to be, and King suggests that this can be to their detriment, as revealed by the surprise ending of his tale.

But at the beginning, even the Dark Tower itself is a mystery to us. Stephen King’s initial inspiration for The Dark Tower was Robert Browning’s epic poem “Childe Roland to the Dark Tower Came,” which ought to give an idea of the tone of the former’s epic prose. The poem ends with the very words that make up its title, with Childe Roland reaching the Dark Tower, the end of his journey. It never tells us what the Dark Tower is, nor why Childe Roland has quested for it in the first place. For Browning, it seems, the question is irrelevant. Indeed, the poem heavily suggests that by now it’s more to do with finishing what he’s started than anything else, as its narrator (the Childe Roland of the title) is the last knight of several who had quested after the tower, the rest having died or else given up already. Either way, the quest took its toll on them, and they were unable to complete the journey.

And should Childe Roland be any different? Without a knowledge of what the Tower is, can we say that it is imperative that he should reach it? Perhaps in a bygone day one might have answered such a question by saying that heroes don’t need a reason to be heroic, but in our jaded world of today it seems futile without a specific reason, and so Browning doesn’t give one. Childe Roland is alone when he reaches the Tower, and while he seems to sense the presence of spirits—those he once knew but have long since left him—really there are none who can bear witness to his having reached his goal. Therefore, what has he truly accomplished? As the koan asks rhetorically, if a tree falls in the woods and there is no one around to hear it, does it make a sound?

It seems, then, that the Dark Tower, for both Browning and King, is akin to the Questing Beast of Arthurian legend. Much was made (especially by author T. H. White, who satirized the legend in his epic, The Once and Future King) of the oddly-shaped Beast, after which King Pellinore quested for no reason other than that it gave him a purpose—gave meaning to his life. While we might laugh at such today, are our own lives really so meaningful that we can judge others for seeking a purpose, even one so futile as seeking a Questing Beast, or a Dark Tower, for its own sake?

And indeed, there is a greater purpose—ordained by fate, destiny, what King calls ka—for reaching the Dark Tower of his prose epic. Namely, the Dark Tower is the hub of the metaphorical wheel of all existence. It is because of the Tower that realities (plural, as there are multiple worlds in King’s tale) are able to exist, and exist independently of each other, each with its own laws of nature and other aspects that make them unique. It is through the six metaphysical Beams holding the Tower in place that energy is sent to the various worlds and their continued existence is assured.

But the Beams are no longer doing their job—they are breaking. More precisely, they are being broken—by telekinetic psychics known as Breakers, recruited from the various worlds (different “wheres” and “whens”) for just this purpose, captured by the minions of the ultimate villain of the piece, the semi-demonic Crimson King. The Crimson King is the lord of chaos—or the force known as the Random, which opposes that called the Purpose—who intends to destroy the Tower and thus unravel the very fabric of reality, so that he might rule over the ensuing chaos. Could there be greater stakes?

And are the Breakers slaves, forced into such an existence by sadistic taskmasters, or are they mindless drones whose identity has been stolen, making them more like robots programmed to do a job? Not at all. Instead, they are ordinary people who—not unlike Roland—seek a purpose in their lives. Having been loser types in their own realities, they are given every comfort and luxury in End-World, and all they must do in return for this apparent paradise is to use their telekinetic powers against the Beams. So grateful are they for being given any sort of higher calling that they ignore the truth of what they are really doing, putting it out of their minds. In this way, they bring to mind, for example, ordinary German people in the Third Reich (not members of the Nazi Party but the common folk) who may not have had hateful feelings towards Jews, but who enjoyed the better lives they were living under Hitler and thus didn’t actively oppose the Nazi regime. Are the Breakers, then, really all that different from people in the “real” world whose luxurious lives come at a great cost to others?

Indeed, they are not even that different from Roland, the proclaimed “hero” of the piece. In the first chapter of the first volume, we discover that he killed—in cold blood—every man, woman, and child in the town of Tull, through which he recently passed. Later in that same volume, he allows a boy to fall to his death in a mine—just so that he can finally catch up to the man in black and do what he intended once he caught up to him. What he intends is not to kill him (which he can’t seem to do anyway), but rather to discover how he might reach the fabled Dark Tower itself.

As uncaring, even anti-heroic, as these actions would indicate, Roland is not a heartless sort. He is a man of honor in a world where honor and civilization have all but been forgotten, repeating the vows of a gunslinger and apologizing for wrong actions with “cry your pardon” and “I have forgotten the face of my father.” Maxims such as these are rare to us in our day and age, and perhaps that is not a good thing for the human soul, as we in our day and age tend to think of ourselves as individuals, completely separate from anyone else. Perhaps we as a society have “forgotten the faces of our fathers” ourselves. Many other pearls of wisdom can be found sprinkled throughout the tale, usually stated by Roland as something he learned from one of his mentors. Therefore Roland is still the hero even in light of what he does, as he represents honor and rightness in a world that has “moved on” from such virtues.

But we don’t learn right away about either the Dark Tower or Roland, who quests for it. Only little by little are we introduced, as is Roland introduced to why his ka is to reach the Tower at all. He has known for years that he must reach it, but even he doesn’t exactly know what he must do once he gets there. It is not until the fourth volume that we get an extended backstory for our gunslinger which gives a better indication of why he is the way he is. Put succinctly, all he has ever been close to has either died or left him (much like the Roland of the Browning poem), and this simply seems to be his ka, just as he learns in that flashback that it is his ka to reach the Tower. The last of the fabled line of Eld (descended from Arthur Eld), Roland’s world is already coming apart in his adolescent years, thanks in part to Marten Broadcloak, another form of Walter o’Dim (he takes many forms, as the true evil sorcerer he is). Not only are the Baronies of old destroyed—and along with it the concept of civilization itself, for the most part—but even the laws of nature are no longer constant, thanks to the Beams being broken and the world moving on. Time speeds up and slows down, and even direction changes (the sun, for example, does not always rise in the east).

Time, indeed, has little meaning in the tale, except as another kind of space—as we know it is today, but perhaps don’t fully grasp what this means exactly. Nowhere is this more evident than in the second volume, The Drawing of the Three. In this volume, Roland must “draw” a new ka-tet (a group of people bound by ka, which is described as a wheel and is thus cyclical, not linear) to join him on his journey. With the worlds “moving on,” the fabric of reality that keeps the various worlds separate is becoming thinner in places, and so it is becoming possible to leave one world and enter into another (as do the Crimson King’s minions when recruiting Breakers).
Throughout The Dark Tower, this is accomplished in many ways, but in Volume II it is done by means of magic doors which Roland discovers on a beach. Each opens onto New York City from the point of view of a specific person, but each also opens onto a different “when.” While the two individuals that he draws into Mid-World from our “Keystone” world in this volume, Eddie and Susannah Dean, fall in love with each other (indeed, Susannah takes Eddie’s last name in a declaration of her love for him), in their own world this might never have been, as Susannah is from 1964 (the year Eddie was born) and Eddie is from 1987 (when Susannah would have been in her late forties).

Indeed, here again we see the theme of people’s lives being given a purpose when previously they weren’t really going anywhere. In his own world, Eddie Dean was a heroin addict and a drug runner for a group of gangsters—a life which claimed his older brother Henry, the “Great Sage and Eminent Junkie” who remains with Eddie throughout the saga by way of memories. But Roland spares Eddie from a similar fate by destroying the gangsters and drawing Eddie into his own world, making him the first permanent member of his new ka-tet. Also, as there is no heroin in Mid-World, Eddie is forced to quit the habit, which only makes him a stronger and better person.

And he also finds love. Susannah started life as Odetta Susannah Holmes, a rich, mild-mannered African-American heiress who was active in the civil rights movement of her time. But ever since a brick was dropped onto her head as a child, she has been the victim of a split personality of which she is not even aware—Detta Susannah Walker, a trash-talking, racist criminal who isn’t aware of her other identity either. As we learn later in the volume, she has also been the victim—twice—of a psychotic, violent criminal named Jack Mort, who was responsible not only for creating the Detta personality (by dropping a brick onto Odetta’s head when she was a child), but also for pushing her in front of a train, making her lose her legs and thus confining her to a wheelchair. As with Eddie, Roland draws Odetta/Detta into Mid-World, not only saving her from Jack Mort, but also saving her soul by forcing her two identities to learn of each other’s existence and therefore to coalesce into a singular, complete human being—Susannah Dean, Eddie’s beloved and his “wife.”

But it is not until the third volume, The Waste Lands, that Roland’s ka-tet is completed. One more is drawn from New York City—an eleven-year-old prep school student named John “Jake” Chambers. Aside from being estranged from his own parents, rich folk who have little to do with their son, Jake has an even greater problem, and here is where the story truly begins to open up beyond conventional fantasy.
When we first met Jake, back in the first volume (The Gunslinger), he had died in his world and entered Mid-World as though the latter were some sort of afterlife. Yet perhaps the truth is not so simple—just before Roland let the boy fall to his death in that same volume, Jake’s last words were “Go then. There are other worlds than these.” Perhaps, then, death is not necessarily a permanent thing at all, what with the many worlds which exist within this epic (although, as we come to learn, only two are of prime importance), and indeed this does appear to be the nature of ka.

But while Roland refrained from saving Jake’s life (as we might expect of one who has killed children in cold blood before), the gunslinger is not a cold-hearted soul. Indeed, he was growing fond of Jake, who is the closest thing he has ever had to being a child of his own, just as Roland is the closest thing the boy has ever had to a father (worthy of the name). And his feelings of guilt at having chosen what he believes to be the bigger picture (locating the Tower via the man in black) over his personal feelings (rescuing his adopted “son) prompt him in Volume II to prevent the boy from dying in his own world. This then becomes the first of many examples of how Roland’s choices influence later events and thus prompt new choices, a theme which pays off at the end of the saga.

This particular choice, however, does not appear to be ideal, as in Volume III we see that it has created a time paradox (a common fear in science-fiction tales, but this is a unique take on this particular trope). Namely, both Roland and Jake have dueling sets of memories, one of which we’ve read about, and one of which is what would have happened had Roland and Jake never met at all. While this threatens to eat away at the sanity of the two characters, it invites us to ponder whether Roland has in fact made the right decision after all.

Is Jake any better off now that he has never died in his own world, never entered Mid-World, never known his “true” father, Roland Deschain? Indeed, is Roland any better off now that one of his sets of memories does not include Jake, his “son,” even if it also does not include the guilt at having abandoned the boy to his death? Not like we might have hoped, quite apart from their dueling sets of memories, although this is enough by itself. It is worse for Jake, as in one of his sets of memories he has died—twice. And while Eddie and Susannah were drawn into Mid-World in ways that might be considered convenient in terms of serving Stephen King’s story, in Jake’s case we get more of a glimpse of what his life (and by extension, their lives) might have been like had he never met Roland and joined him on his epic quest. In this alternate reality in which Jake has never died, Roland, Mid-World, and the Tower, are scarcely more than a vivid daydream—indeed, his teacher gives him an A on an essay he writes about it, which is really no more than him trying to make sense of what is really happening and what his second set of memories really entail.

But it is only such “dreams” that appear to make Jake’s life in New York worthwhile. It appears that it would be much better if the boy could actually experience Mid-World firsthand, and be given a real reason for existing. Thus, the best thing for Jake as well as for Roland is for the boy to be drawn into Mid-World as the others have been, and thereby complete the new ka-tet.

Except it isn’t complete, not yet. Those who primarily know Stephen King as a horror author are likely unaware of just how versatile a writer he is, as the final member of the ka-tet is the least likely member imaginable—and yet, surely the author of such a unique epic tale as The Dark Tower could come up with any sort of idea and make it work. The final member is not a human but an animal called a “billy-bumbler,” a sort of cross between a dog, a raccoon, and a badger that has a parrot-like ability to mimic human speech. The bumbler, named Oy by Jake, was apparently banished from his pack, but follows Jake and the remainder of the ka-tet after the boy feeds him, thus considering them his new “pack.”

While Oy, however lovable and kid-friendly he is, may not appear to be a legitimate member of the gunslinger’s ka-tet (being a “mere” animal and thus not a gunslinger himself), he holds his own with any of the human characters, as we first see near the end of the same Volume III. There, he serves as sort of a “bloodhound,” tracking a group of warriors known as Grays who have kidnapped Jake, thus helping Roland to save the boy from their leader, the Tick-Tock Man. And this is only the first of several adventures the newly-formed ka-tet has throughout the saga.

But it is not just the bumbler who is memorable and lovable—all the characters are, in their own unique ways. Eddie Dean is a wisecracking comedy relief sort at times, but has a deeply human element as well, often serving to balance Roland’s outlook with his own. Susannah Dean is kind and loving as Odetta Holmes had been, but like Detta Walker is able to speak her mind and follow the path of a gunslinger as readily as anyone. Jake Chambers is a boy in a transitional stage of his life, soon to become a man, and unlike his own parents, Roland’s ka-tet recognizes this.

All of these characters literally jump out of the page and enter the “real” world, which while only one of many is referred to as the “Keystone” world in the story and is acknowledged as such by the fact (discovered by Jake in Volume III) that the Tower has another incarnation in our world—a rose that is more pure and beautiful than anything ever grown, in a then-vacant lot in New York City. A rose—a feminine counterpart to the masculine symbolism of the Tower. Thus do Roland’s world and ours complement each other as being of prime importance, even while reality does not limit itself to those two (as Roland’s ka-tet are from a world in which Stephen King does not exist, for example).

Roland’s quest offers meaning and purpose to the lives of his ka-tet, and greatly improves them overall in ways they might never have known otherwise (as is the case with the characters in The Wizard of Oz, which King’s epic directly references), but this does not come without a cost. As mentioned previously, all those Roland grows close to eventually either die or end up leaving him, and as early as the fourth volume (Wizard and Glass—where the Wizard of Oz comparisons are most prominent), it becomes clear that this is so, both to the readers and to the ka-tet themselves. Thus, at the end of this volume, they are faced with a difficult choice: do they continue with him along the path of the Beam towards the Dark Tower, as far as they can, even if it means their untimely (likely violent) deaths? Or do they give it up and return to their previous lives, such as they were (and to the extent they can)?

By now the ka-tet has been through so much together, and grown so close to each other and to Roland (who they now finally understand better), that all agree to see the quest through to whatever end. And this decision based on their newfound knowledge allows them to return to the path of the Beam which they had been following but lost (because Roland needed to come clean with them). Thus do they continue their journey, working under the promise that if they’re to die, they will die as gunslingers.

And die they do, for the most part—one by one. Only Susannah survives in the end, after the Breakers have been stopped, and she is so distraught by the loss of her beloved Eddie, and then the boy Jake, that she swears off the quest (which she’s able to do now that the ka-tet is broken), leaving Roland ultimately to reach the tower alone, as did his namesake in the Browning poem.

But it is not for Stephen King to leave it at such an ending for his own epic. Not only did King publish his tale in seven volumes, but each was published one at a time, so that many of his Constant Readers have followed Roland’s story over the course of the years that it was written. Consequently, King acknowledges in a coda that some readers might feel cheated by such an ending—and admonishes this way of thinking, for indeed that is his entire point. What’s important is the journey, not the ending—as he puts it himself, endings are heartless. He even points out that if an ending is all that’s wanted, one could simply turn to the end and avoid reading the story entirely.

And indeed, this is a reflection of real life, though most don’t think of it that way. Perhaps, as with the Breakers, we put it out of our minds because it is too difficult for us to face. But the truth is that the ending to all our lives—to all our stories—is death. Can that, then, be the point of human life? To reach death as quickly and painlessly as possible? Or is what makes our lives significant what happens on the road to the “clearing at the end of the path,” as Stephen King describes death—even if the only significance we find is that which we ascribe to our lives? These are profound questions which make this tale more than a merely fanciful (and lengthy) work of fiction.

The Dark Tower epic can in fact be divided into two basic groups: the first ends with Volume IV, Wizard and Glass, and is about characters whose lives are going nowhere because they have no purpose in life, and they are being given a chance to discover their own inner heroic qualities by being granted such a purpose. However, the second “half” of the tale, beginning with Volume V, Wolves of the Calla, balances this out by warning not to let a purpose turn into an obsession. These last three volumes are filled with characters who find purpose in their lives but for whom the purpose is detrimental to others and ultimately also to themselves. This brings to mind the Browning poem (overtly referenced in these final volumes), and consequently the vigilant reader must be prepared for the fact that in the end, even our hero, Roland, goes beyond what ka means for him to do.

However, returning to my earlier point, Stephen King notes that some readers will still not have understood this—he suggests that reading The Dark Tower has become a similar obsession for them, blinding them to his entire intent—and so grudgingly carries Roland into the Tower (and the readers with him) and shows what he found there. But here again, readers might be disappointed—indeed, King himself has stated that he wasn’t particularly thrilled about it—but it is the right ending for such a tale, if the Constant Reader has read it thoroughly enough to understand it properly.

In the coda, Roland enters the Tower and as he climbs the stairs to the top, he has a strange feeling of déjà vu, and the space around him becomes smaller, coffin-like—playing into the idea of the end of the journey representing death. Indeed, before he reaches the top, the doors he looks into show him imagery from his past, as though his life were flashing before his eyes (a common phenomenon for those about to die). But then he discovers the secret riddle of not only the Dark Tower, but his own existence—and it horrifies him. He learns that he has been here before, countless times, and will have to make the journey again—he is caught in a loop, forced to make the same quest over and over, and lose his memory of each loop as the next one begins. Effectively he is “reincarnated,” given a new life after his “death” in his old life, and this has been going on for God only knows how long.

Put another way, Roland literally finds himself within the Dark Tower, as it makes sense for him to do given the theme of the story. The reason the journey is more important than the destination is that it allows for characters to discover the greatness within themselves, and thereby be changed somehow for the better--at least this is the goal. This in turn gives hope for the readers who might believe they are nothing special, but perhaps they only need the opportunity to shine. But the fact that Roland has to start over from the beginning indicates that Roland, like the readers who follow him into the Tower, is not satisfied and hasn't yet learned the lesson he must be taught. Consequently he must seek out his own personal "Dark Tower" (in this case, the same literal Dark Tower) once again, as he has done before--however many times it takes for him to get the message.

This means that his existence is not futile, as the entire story up until this point would truly have been done a disservice if it were. In his next loop, Roland has the Horn of Eld, a family heirloom which he had forsaken after the Battle of Jericho Hill (the battle that claimed the lives of his first ka-tet) in his previous loop. This one singular detail indicates that hope is not lost, that Roland has the ability to make different, perhaps better, decisions next time, and at some point he might even be able to break the cycle entirely, as did Bill Murray in the movie Groundhog Day. Thus it embodies the very Eastern concept of reincarnation—Roland gets as many chances as he needs in order to get it right, and is a blank slate each time, having forgotten the previous loop and yet not doomed to the same fate—ka—each time. In keeping with this cyclical concept (ka is constantly referred to as a “wheel”), it ends as it began: “The man in black fled across the desert, and the gunslinger followed.”

But the cyclical nature of the tale means that it hasn’t truly ended, and indeed never can. It is very much an adult answer to Michael Ende’s The Neverending Story, and not only in the fact that it is indeed neverending (the tale even expands beyond the seven volumes themselves, which will be discussed later), but also in terms of the meta-fictional aspect of both stories. In the last three volumes of his epic, Stephen King writes himself into the story, having the characters meet with him—and more to the point, having them encourage him not to give up his endeavor, immense and daunting though it may be.

Indeed, Stephen King compares himself (or at least his fictional incarnation) with Roland—just as Roland seeks to find the Dark Tower, and save it from being destroyed, so too has Stephen King sought to write his epic tale, one which he began as a young man in college, a very ambitious attempt to write the “longest popular novel” ever written. And just as the Dark Tower is the centerpiece of all existence within the epic tale, so too is The Dark Tower itself the centerpiece for Stephen King’s entire body of work (to be discussed shortly). Indeed, the two men are even compared in appearance in Volume VI, where a thirty-year-old Stephen King (referred to in the third person from the fictional characters’ perspective) is described as looking as though he could be Roland’s son.

However, King also contrasts himself with his creation, as the writer is nowhere near as single-minded as is the gunslinger. Twice within the tale, the fictional King has given up on writing his Dark Tower epic and needs to be pushed to finish it. Indeed, King is as afraid of Roland as anyone, and Roland is rather contemptuous of the tale-spinner, even remarking that the only reason people spin tales is because they are afraid of real life. Whether true or not is irrelevant (and in light of Roland’s ultimate fate, it might appear that Stephen King ultimately succeeds where Roland failed), but the fact that Roland makes such a statement gives a clear indication of his personality.

It is Roland who—both times—reminds Stephen King to continue his story, and not to stop until it is finished. In fact, the second time around, the characters (and hence the story) literally save King’s life, preventing him from being killed by a minivan (an accident which really almost claimed the author’s life in 1999). Here King metaphorically indicates how his tale and characters have given his own life meaning and purpose, even to the point where he is spared so that his tale will not go unfinished forever.

And isn’t this the function of mythology? To give meaning to life when life all too often seems meaningless, as it does for Roland’s ka-tet before he draws them into his world? What might have become of Eddie, Susannah, and Jake, had they never met Roland? To be sure, Eddie and Jake would not have died violent deaths, but what about the quality and content of their lives before their deaths? We’ll never know for sure, but it is strongly indicated that they need a purpose. While Susannah ultimately abandons the quest and enters an alternate reality version of New York, reunited with different versions of Eddie and Jake, it is not a happy ending (and King acknowledges this, though he says it is as close as the story can give). After all, this is not her Eddie, or her Jake (they have never met her, though at least Eddie has anticipated her in dreams). King even suggests that a canine version of Oy might join them (a clear indication that it will not be the real Oy, who was not a dog. While it might appear happy, given the deaths of the “real” Eddie and Jake previously (and the fact that their lives seem to be of better quality in this reality), it rings hollow, and this is King’s point. Eddie and Jake (and Susannah) do need a purpose to their lives such as Roland gave—as arguably do the Constant Readers, who live in a world that moves so quickly that meaning and purpose are being left in the dust. Perhaps, indeed, our own world is moving on. Perhaps, indeed, we all need to seek our own “Dark Towers.”

And indeed, the epic indicates that, while the Tower is the linchpin for all existence, it is also personal to whoever dares to enter, for what Roland finds within the Tower is nothing more or less than the story of his own life (as it has been lived until now). Thus the Tower is both one and many, different things for different people. In Stephen King’s case, it was a book (or rather, seven books). And it is different things for us his Constant Readers—we all need our own “Dark Towers” to seek, while at the same time not letting our quests blind us to the fact that the journey there is what gives meaning to our lives, drawing out our best qualities, not the “Dark Towers” themselves. Again, King advises against making The Dark Tower into one’s own purpose in life, and if we Constant Readers don’t figure this out by the end, it is our loss.

Some have criticized Stephen King’s decision to include himself in his own story, considering it an act of narcissism, but I disagree. It is clearly stated in the story that Stephen King is not an all-powerful or all-knowing Godlike figure, but simply the medium through which this tale is being told. Indeed, in ancient Greece, storytellers always began their tales by invoking the Muses, goddesses of the arts to whom were credited the inspiration (literally “breathing in”) of the tales. In other words, no story came from a mortal’s imagination, and to believe otherwise was arrogant. Stephen King is not the creator of The Dark Tower (the “Childe Rowland” tale has been around a long time, in various incarnations), but a character in it, as much as any other. His world and ours is a neighbor world of Roland’s, no more or less real than the rest. Even J. R. R. Tolkien refused to call his writings “creations,” but “sub-creations,” leaving true “creation” to God. It is only through our present worldview that including himself in the tale might appear to be the act of an inflated ego.

If doubt of this lingers, it is hopefully dispelled in the final volume, where it is plainly stated that the author was inspired to write the tale after reading Robert Browning’s poem in college—indicating that Browning was his own generation’s medium for recounting the tale. Indeed, the last leg of Roland’s journey follows the poem more precisely than everything written previously—and in fact the characters discover the poem and specific stanzas that relate to their experience. It seems King only stops short of including Browning himself in some form within the tale. What greater denunciation of narcissism could there be than to credit one’s own inspiration so overtly within one’s writing?

Anyway, placing himself into his tale is only the final step in a singular trend throughout Stephen King's tale, namely that of uniting many of his mainstream fiction works into his Dark Tower epic. Not only do characters and worlds from his other books like The Stand and ’Salem’s Lot appear in King’s magnum opus (and in some cases, even the books themselves!), but The Dark Tower’s specific story has a scope that goes beyond even the seven-volume tale itself, spilling out into such mainstream novels as Insomnia and Black House, effectively making these Dark Tower books in all except name.

It is specifically ’Salem’s Lot—and more notably, Insomnia—that actually appear as books within The Dark Tower epic. The appearance of ’Salem’s Lot, which introduced the character of Father Donald Callahan (who appears in the last three volumes of The Dark Tower) paves the way for the final volume. In the latter, Roland is told that Insomnia is the “Keystone book” among Stephen King’s non-Dark Tower fiction, in terms of being related to The Dark Tower tale. And having received the latter novel for my birthday in addition to The Dark Tower—and having read it by now—I can say with conviction that this is indeed the case. Besides the fact that it fleshes out the nature of the Tower and reality itself according to the mythology of King’s epic, to a greater extent perhaps than even the seven-volume epic itself, Insomnia introduces the character that will ultimately destroy the Crimson King, the major villain of The Dark Tower: a little boy named Patrick Danville, who has the remarkable ability to draw things to extremes of accuracy, and even give his art a life all its own. Not dissimilar, in other words, to the magic done by Stephen King in writing his Dark Tower tale. While Patrick is introduced in Insomnia, where he is declared a Christ-like figure in danger of being killed, Herod-fashion, by the Crimson King’s brainwashed lackey Ed Deepneau, it is in the final volume of The Dark Tower that the now teenaged boy fulfills his own destiny and destroys the Crimson King, and Patrick is not seen at all between his two appearances, nor indeed are we given an indication as to his ultimate fate.

In fact, I find myself thinking of how little he figures into the story even while having a crucial role to play. It is he who the Crimson King tries to have killed in Insomnia, and it is he who ultimately destroys (or at least neutralizes) the Crimson King in the final volume of The Dark Tower. Yet we see very little of him in either book. In Insomnia he is a very small boy only seen a few times, very little before it is learned that he is the "chosen one" who must be saved from Ed Deepneau's suicidal airplane. And in the final volume of The Dark Tower, Patrick is introduced very late on, after Roland's ka-tet has begun to break up. And he is the only one left with Roland when he reaches the Tower, and we never learn what becomes of him. I suspect the possibility that Patrick's primary role, then (other than the obvious) is to serve as an outside observer analogous not to Stephen King himself, necessarily, but actually to his predecessor, Robert Browning (which might explain why the latter never appeared in the series).

The fact that the Browning poem that served to inspire King's epic, "Childe Roland to the Dark Tower Came," is only mentioned in the final volume--and after Roland and Susannah have defeated the monster Dandelo, who held Patrick prisoner (how this came about is perhaps one of Stephen King's most interesting untold tales)--and that the poem ended with Roland reaching the tower and going no further indicates (to me at least) that Patrick is effectively substituting for Robert Browning in the epic. Whether this was intentional or not I don't know, and there are some discrepancies, but it makes sense to me at least. Patrick Danville is an artist (admittedly he draws rather than writing poetry), and Roland is alone when he reaches the Tower except for Patrick alone who helps him enter (by doing away with Roland's biggest enemy) and Patrick does not continue to the Tower with Roland but leaves, and we never learn what becomes of him (also a fascinating untold tale). Thus it seems that other than destroying the Crimson King, his only purpose is to give an outsider's view of the end of Roland's journey. And the part that he visits is the part specifically inspired by the Browning poem, from Dandelo to the Tower. In addition, Patrick is mute in The Dark Tower (perhaps because Browning was dead and can no longer speak or write?), where he was not in Insomnia, a change that is never explained. Again, this is just speculation--Patrick is also more mentally challenged in The Dark Tower, something Robert Browning clearly was not--not to mention the fact that Browning's narrator was Childe Roland himself, not an outsider. I can't account for everything, but this at least makes some sense for what is otherwise a rather odd decision on Stephen King's part.

As for the Crimson King himself, he is featured (or at least clearly referenced) in other tales between the two, notably “Low Men in Yellow Coats” (from the collection Hearts in Atlantis) and Black House (co-written with friend and fellow horror author Peter Straub, a sequel to their earlier collaboration The Talisman) before his tale is completed in the final volume of The Dark Tower. In these latter two non-Dark Tower tales, the Crimson King’s minions attempt to kidnap powerful psychics who have the makings of Breakers, and these tales give the first indication of what the Breakers and the Beams are, and how they relate to the Dark Tower. Effectively, then, two separate story threads are being told and ultimately combined, one with a greater scope (the Crimson King/Breaker saga), and one with a smaller, more personal focus (The Dark Tower series proper). They complement each other nicely, and indeed, the first time around it might be easier to read both at the same time, alternating between volumes to follow the two story threads in chronological order.

But the connections don’t end there. Aside from these tales, and those such as The Stand and ’Salem’s Lot, which were “drawn” into The Dark Tower epic and directly influence the plot, there are several “stand-alone” works by Stephen King which touch upon elements from his epic, notably It, which features the Turtle (revealed to be one of the Guardians of the Beam in The Dark Tower). Taken together, then, King’s vision grows far beyond even his 4000-page novel, arguably entering ultimately into his entire body of fiction and even beyond—let’s not forget the fact that Peter Straub co-wrote Black House and its predecessor The Talisman, thus meshing that author’s work with King’s. Clearly, then, what we have is a true work of modern mythology.

And even there it doesn’t end, for King makes references in all his works—not just The Dark Tower—to the writings of other authors, which he has read and enjoyed, and also to poetry and films he's seen. In some cases the characters specifically mention them to serve a purpose, in others he takes direct inspiration from them for his epic. Besides the aforementioned "Childe Roland to the Dark Tower Came" and The Good, the Bad, and the Ugly, these include T. S. Eliot's poem "The Waste Land" (from which Volume III of The Dark Tower takes its title) and Akira Kurosawa's film The Seven Samurai (as well as its Western remake, The Magnificent Seven). But regardless of how they are referenced within his works, Stephen King pays homage to them all while still retaining his own vision. Never do we feel that he is stealing or copying someone else's hard work. From L. Frank Baum’s The Wizard of Oz to Richard Adams’s Shardik to even J. K. Rowling’s Harry Potter books (begun long after The Dark Tower had gotten well underway), an entire gamut of authors are represented by Stephen King, clearly making his epic a true work of meta-fiction, a fiction about fiction itself.

Indeed, his characters wrestle with the meaning of fiction as they come to discover they are characters in a book, even while remaining as real as their “creator.” To use one example, the Crimson King’s final act is to attempt to kill Roland and Patrick Danville with “sneetches,” weapons which very much resemble the Golden Snitch in the game of Quidditch in the Harry Potter books by J. K. Rowling (both Potter and Rowling are subtly referenced themselves as well), and this is but the last of many such examples throughout King’s mythology. I particularly noted that most of the works referenced in The Dark Tower were books that I had already read and enjoyed myself (most recently the Harry Potter series), and so I felt like it was the right time for me to read The Dark Tower, as though ka were working on me the reader as well as the characters. Certainly, then, King’s work can be said to stretch out into the works of these other authors as well (most notably Robert Browning, who wrote the poem that initiated King’s inspiration to write the tale), thus revealing in a more obvious way than any story I’ve read previously (though not interfering with the story itself) the fact that all human storytelling is of a piece, as with Joseph Campbell’s Hero’s Journey. King’s epic might not be the last word on this subject, but certainly it is the longest.

This is not to say that The Dark Tower is in any way perfect, however. The fact that it is not the “longest popular novel” ever written (and the fact of criticisms made by fans and non-fans alike—many of which are the same criticisms made by multiple people) are an indication of this, and Stephen King himself has said he would like to revise all volumes of the tale at some point in the future. Therefore, lest I be accused of idolizing Stephen King or his epic, I shall discuss its flaws now. Most notable among its imperfections are its internal inconsistencies, which are only to be expected in a 4000-page narrative written over thirty-odd years. These are primarily found between the last three volumes (and the revised and expanded version of the first volume) on the one hand, and volumes II through IV (and especially the original version of Volume I) on the other. Perhaps most obvious among these is the nature of Walter o’Dim, the man in black. In the revised and expanded edition of Volume I, he pretends to have died after his palaver with Roland; in Volumes II through IV, he really has died (as he really did in the original version of Volume I); in Volumes V through VII, he is indicated as being the same as Marten Broadcloak (without any big revelation of such) and is killed in the final volume. Another inconsistency is the nature of the number nineteen, which crops up in the revised and expanded edition of Volume I (and the last three volumes), but not in Volumes II through IV (or the original version of Volume I). And there are other, more minor inconsistencies.

While these make it somewhat difficult to interpret Stephen King’s intent (not to mention the fact that the author has not yet revised all volumes to make them internally consistent), these are not by any means detrimental to the story. They are relatively few, and even those that exist are no more than the inconsistencies that pervade, say, the Bible. At any rate, surely even Stephen King can be forgiven for not having gone through all 4000 pages to make them internally consistent, at least not so soon after completing them. And even mythological tales have been interpreted differently by different people anyway—what readers bring to a story based on their own experiences and personality determines what they will take from it, which will therefore be different as well. Thus even the epic’s inconsistencies can be forgiven, as far as they exist for now.

In conclusion, all of the above serves to say (in so many words) that The Dark Tower is a true work of mythology—there is simply no other word inclusive enough to encompass all that The Dark Tower is—in every definition of the word. It creates its own self-contained, consistent world, as real as ours, even while making it only one of many (including ours) which are no more or less real than any other; it uses our knowledge of what the world is like (based on science and history) in order to reflect the beliefs and values of its author, and by extension his culture, a global society (with an American viewpoint) in the twenty-first century; it serves as a guideline for how we might live our own lives in such a culture, with a purpose (while not letting our purpose become an obsession and blind us to the greater picture); it is a literal neverending story, looping back to its own beginning and spilling into his mainstream work; it is a collection of tales not only penned by he himself, but by those he read and admired, all produced by a modern global culture.

The Dark Tower isn’t fantasy, it isn’t science-fiction, it isn’t horror, it isn’t a western, it isn’t even mere meta-fiction, though it has elements of all of those. As Roland himself stated, sometimes the best way to learn about a culture is to learn what it dreams about. An extraterrestrial wishing to learn about our culture would have plenty to learn from reading Stephen King’s magnum opus. Therefore there is no word better suited to the task of describing The Dark Tower than “mythology.”

And there is no work of writing I know of better suited to the task of serving as a mythology for us in our day and age than The Dark Tower. While I read related mainstream works of Stephen King’s between each Dark Tower volume, I feared I wouldn’t remember what had happened in the previous volume when it came time to read the next, but each time I began a new Dark Tower volume it was as though I had never left, but all the same I somehow had the knowledge of the mainstream title I’d just finished (similar to how Roland loops back to the Mohaine Desert but has the Horn of Eld, and the memory of having picked it up at the Battle of Jericho). I can think of no better example of a mythological experience, a communion with a greater force than myself, than to compare my own experience to what I’m reading—and indeed, this was also the case with Insomnia which, along with Black House, are now my two favorite non-Dark Tower works by Stephen King (his magnum opus will of course always be first), and not only because of their relationship to the larger tale.

This only serves to show how gifted Stephen King truly is, and how blessed we all are to share a “when” with him. No mere horror author, he. He was the first modern author writing for an adult audience that I have read—and enjoyed enough to seek out other works by the same author. He will no doubt be remembered long after his contemporaries have been forgotten—remembered as the great classic author of our time, the one even the uneducated can mention and know who is being talked about (and perhaps the one who will suffer most from Bowdlerization somewhere down the line). In fact, I don’t think it is unfair to say that Stephen King is the guru, the shaman, the prophet, of our “where” and “when,” and while he is only a mere mortal, no different than you or I (and thus imperfect and not to be idolized), he is truly blessed to have been touched by whatever angel, whatever Muse, has deigned to confer upon him such a fate.

Thank you, sai King, from the bottom of my heart, for enriching my life (and the lives of others) just as surely as Roland enriched the lives of his ka-tet. Like the gunslinger himself, I shall seek The Dark Tower again and again until I come to the clearing at the end of my own path.

pathoftheturtle
08-17-2008, 11:18 AM
Hey, JaY. :) Not bad; thanks for sharing. It’s nice to see other fans embracing these novels so spiritedly, and trying to comprehend their depths. I really like your central thesis, that “mythology” is the best category for TDT, and I think that with more work, this could be a really great article.

Additionally, you made a number of statements and suggested interpretations that could be opened to debate in separate threads, which I expect would prove quite fruitful on this website. Our community provides some outstanding opportunities for deeper philosophical inquiry to those of us who find such cause appealing. Not to undervalue the many other functions that corresponding here offers for everyone, by any means, but I much appreciate every step that advances that particular area.

• I was especially pleased, personally, to find in your writing some hints of a concept that I’ve lately been trying to promote, around this very forum and with a recent contribution to the Villagers thread, “Is Roland a Hero? (http://http://www.thedarktower.org/palaver/showthread.php?t=1748)”

• I’d say you’re definitely on to something with TDT showing supreme value in purpose and the antithetical hazards of obsession, but it seems oversimple to try to divide these aspects so neatly between volumes. No single one is solely filled with negative examples, really. Consider:

Earlier characters with obsessions detrimental to others and to themselves
Nort
Sylvia Pittston
Gabrielle
Henry
Jack Mort
Elmer Chambers
Tick Tock
Blaine
Hart Thorin
Rhea

Some characters who find more positive new directions later on
Pere Callahan
the breakers (especially Ted & Dinky)
Stephen King
John Cullum/Tet Corp.
Patrick Danville

I also think that you’ve made too much of King’s way of characterizing Susannah’s ending. I’d say that he was only restating points made at the close of Eyes of the Dragon. Like The Last Unicorn’s “There are no happy endings… because nothing ever ends.” I’d definitely still count it as another re-purposing of the ka-tet, and as a validation of the first ones which each had in DT II and III.

Still, some other fates found in the books seem to prove nothing other than one of the ideas that SK pointed out in the series forward-- “…Pride goeth before a fall, Stephen, she said… and then I found out… that eventually you fall down, anyway. …” The most poignant of this type is poor Sheemie.

With Roland, King had to face a double-edged sword, I think, between making the conclusion do a disservice to the tale and making the tale do a disservice to real experience.

• Interesting thoughts, JaY, regarding Patrick. It is explained, on one level, that Dandelo took Patrick’s tongue, though it’s still a significant mystery as to how he got Patrick at all, and a remarkable “coincidence” that he kept him there. In alternative to your theory, what Patrick may represent is presumed further successors to Browning, successors to King himself.

You told me before, on another thread once, that you see specific criticism as a sign that we care. True there, and moreso in this case; I really think that furthering this project could be worthwhile, so I do hope that you won’t mind a few pieces of advice. I, for one, do not find the length of your work to be necessarily problematic in itself, but what it chiefly needs is greater organization. (Especially in this .com context: it’s hard to devise a response when there are multiple topics and somewhat weak direction.) If you’re interested in feedback toward composing a more formal new draft for a stand-alone review, it might help to gather all of the plot recounting you’ve done throughout to near the paper’s outset, or to just refer the audience to another synopsis and thus open space for expanding your main argument.

There are a number of particular re-phrasings that I could suggest to bolster the appearance of a general streamlining. Plus:

• Early on, you describe TDT as a fantasy grounded by science fiction. What fascinates me, though, is that it could equally be defined as science fiction open to fantasy. Another important point on entities in the story comes in King’s background as acknowledged master of horror; those interested in the supernatural often seek explanations more basic than physical law. I’d recommend a fuller accounting of TDT’s broad perspective. Furthermore, it might be profitable to also consider some other contemporary franchises that have been termed mythology fictions, such as the TV series Lost and The Matrix film saga.

• Our world is even more jaded now than it was in Browning’s lifetime. Pellinore does predate T.H. White, but it’s important that the satire his book made of the Questing Beast was aimed pretty squarely at Arthur’s grail. The Tower may well be meant to a similar purpose, but a case for that would benefit from a pronounced chronology of these different authors and more of the relevant stories.

• Later, you say that you mean to show that you do not idolize King, but it remains a bit doubtful when you level no criticism without immediately justifying it, and continue to only apologize his work. You then give an apparently casual discounting of the bible and run the risk of offending some believers. I’m not sure that that is actually the best example to use there. As you note, TDT’s author was writing over the course of forty years, but that’s hardly comparable to forty authors, writing over the course of centuries. Also, while the series does touch on a great diversity of subjects, the nature is more akin to Eliot’s “The Waste Land” – the bible addresses even more issues, and does so with a style that is often directly prescriptive. If you’re sure that you do want to make that comparison, in order to demonstrate the validity of TDT as myth, I think you should state the intention clearly, and be more careful and detailed in presenting it.

These are just a few comments, which I hope you’ll find helpful. I haven’t been around enough to be really sure whether you’re going to post much more, anyway, and it’s actually kind of hard to say whether I myself will be able to come here more often in the near future, or less often. Whatever the case, though, I wish you well, and if we’re able to talk further, I hope that this will help it be productive.

mae
10-06-2008, 10:10 AM
Well, I can't believe it but here it is, I finally started reading DT7. The previous two volumes I read both within a few weeks. Reading DT4 took me a long time. Prior to that I took a long break from reading DT1-3. I never thought I'd get here so fast. I must confess one thing though. I have been spoiled insofar as knowing that the end is the beginning, thus a loop, thus the subtitle of the Revised DT1 being "Resumption." Question, though: is that the main "point" of the series? I hope not. I hope, and I assume, there is much more to it than that. I also knew of Stephen King's appearance in DT6, and it was still a pleasant and fun surprise. I am now about sixty pages into DT7.

John_and_Yoko
10-06-2008, 10:14 AM
I'm not sure if you need to put that in spoiler tags, but....

Could you clarify your question? How do you define "main point", and what do you mean by "more to it than that"?

alinda
10-06-2008, 10:16 AM
Was there a question in there? I am happy to hear your finishing the series.
I have a question though, would you mind marking the above reference with a spoiler tag?
Thanks, and happy reading, I am sure that you'll find your answers, and love the rest of the tale.:)

mae
10-06-2008, 10:51 AM
Sorry about the spoilers. Thought it was okay here. My bad.

The question was, knowing the end, just the fact that it's a loop, is that that big of a spoiler? I'm not too fazed with spoilers in general, but I was somewhat disappointed in finding that out (accidentally). But I think King has given hints regarding that in the Revised DT1, which is what I read, instead of the original.

Jean
10-06-2008, 10:59 AM
in fact, if was ok not to mark spoilers here - it's Baronies, Book 7, so it is a spoiler forum already.

Answering your question: to my mind, no, if you happened to learn about the loop, you do not really lose anything. You may have noticed that there's a lot to the book already; there's going to be more and more, and the "final outcome" is only a small particle comparing with the whole; I believe Mr.King must have meant it when he repeatedly hinted at "how it all ended" in the Revised.

alinda
10-06-2008, 11:01 AM
Thanks Jean for shedding some light here. You always seem to be able to cut to the chase, and make sense of things I somehow miss. :blush:

mae
10-06-2008, 11:08 AM
Thanks, Jean, for putting my mind at ease. :) Can't wait to get off work and get back into the book. I've been reading DT non-stop for a few months now, starting with DT4, whereas I read DT1 then immediately DT2, but took a while to read DT3, and then again a really long time to read DT4. After finishing DT4, it's been marathon reading for me; finishing one book and starting the next the same day. I'm just really pumped because, first of all, I am enjoying the series immensely (feeling bad it took me so long to start reading it - but in my defense I was waiting for King to finish it - anyone else do that?), and second of all, it's always exhilarating and somewhat sad when the end is in sight.

Jean
10-06-2008, 11:10 AM
I really envy you, I do so wish I could read it for the first time again!

http://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k291/mishemplushem/Facilitation/0134-bear.gifhttp://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k291/mishemplushem/Facilitation/0134-bear.gifhttp://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k291/mishemplushem/Facilitation/0134-bear.gif

(warning: this thread is going to be merged very soon http://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k291/mishemplushem/Facilitation/bear_cool.gif)

John_and_Yoko
10-06-2008, 11:24 AM
Now that I understand the question, let me say that I knew the ending before I read ANY of it, and I still consider it one of the best stories I've ever read. :D

The reason being that reading a synopsis is divorced from the actual emotion that goes with it, so that was certainly not taken away from me by knowing how it ended.

Brainslinger
10-06-2008, 11:34 AM
I really envy you, I do so wish I could read it for the first time again!


I know what you mean. I sometimes think it would be cool if it were possible to delete certain memories from one's mind so you can enjoy the experience again anew.

(Ok, thinking it through that wouldn't be a great idea considering all the theories etc, one builds up afterward, but I'm sure you know what I mean.)

Slightly off-topic but that reminds me of an episode of Red Dwarf where the ship's sentient but quirky computer, Holly, asks Lister (one of the crew) to delete all the novels of a certain author (I think it was Agatha Christie) from his memory so he can enjoy them again.
Lister does as he's told and says, "Done Hol!"
"What's done?"
"I deleted all the Agatha Christie novels as you asked."
"Who's that then?"
etc etc.

(Not quoted exactly.)

Brainslinger
10-06-2008, 11:36 AM
As for the ending and what we learn of it being the point, no. I think they emphasized if anything the point is the story itself, so even if the ending is spoiled, the story along the way is still great.

alinda
10-06-2008, 12:06 PM
This is exactly as Sai King said on many an occasion, it is the journey not the destination

Wuducynn
10-06-2008, 12:45 PM
in fact, if was ok not to mark spoilers here - it's Baronies, Book 7, so it is a spoiler forum already..

Thank you. I wish there was a way to make sure everyone knew that in this forum spoiler tags are not needed.

alinda
10-06-2008, 01:34 PM
*ahem* I know know :blush:

Letti
10-07-2008, 11:33 PM
pable - absolutely the same happened to me. Still the this book shocked my whole world... it's my favourite. This book is so... so... so rich and deep and everything that people could talk about it for hours and they couldn't spoil anything.
Because the journey is the main point. And you. And your feelings.
Enjoy the reading and the travelling. :rose:

Sam
10-07-2008, 11:53 PM
And yet, Pablo, I understand your question. In this case though, knowing the end does not spoil the book. You see, the end is not the point. The point of this saga, from my point of view, is the journey itself. Enjoy it, revel in it, let the emotion flow over and through you. Laugh out loud when you want and cry if you need to, but enjoy the journey.

alinda
10-08-2008, 04:06 AM
Roland's story to me is very comparable to our story too. Our love , choices and
ability to further ourselves to wards our goals, often with shocking results to those around us and ourselves. All with the results of blessedly having another go when we err
and stray from our purpose.... lessons learned.

mae
10-08-2008, 06:52 AM
Guys, thank you all for your reassuring words. I am very much enjoying the beginning of DT7. I thought DT6 was probably the strongest, for me, since DT2.

Jean
10-08-2008, 07:01 AM
Guys, thank you all for your reassuring words. I am very much enjoying the beginning of DT7. I thought DT6 was probably the strongest, for me, since DT2.

Now you're talking!

http://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k291/mishemplushem/Facilitation/bear_thumb.gifhttp://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k291/mishemplushem/Facilitation/bear_thumb.gifhttp://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k291/mishemplushem/Facilitation/bear_thumb.gif

<- loves DT6

alinda
10-08-2008, 07:20 AM
:couple:

mae
11-17-2008, 12:35 PM
Ugh, I find it quite sad I started reading DT7 more than a month ago and I'm still not even halfway through (around page 350 or so).

I suck... :pullhair:

Wuducynn
11-17-2008, 02:46 PM
Ugh, I find it quite sad I started reading DT7 more than a month ago and I'm still not even halfway through (around page 350 or so).

I suck... :pullhair:

It's okay, DT7 is the most important book of all of them to take your time with and digest.

mae
11-17-2008, 03:23 PM
Yeah, I know. I just thought I was making good strides, read about 80 pages or so over the weekend. I'm a very slow reader.

Letti
11-18-2008, 02:27 PM
Yeah, I know. I just thought I was making good strides, read about 80 pages or so over the weekend. I'm a very slow reader.

No, you aren't. Many people don't read at all or they read 3 books in their whole life. (There is no problem with that, either.)
Do you like this book so far?

mae
11-18-2008, 02:35 PM
Do you like this book so far?

Oh, sure. And I'm enjoying it very much. I'm taking my time because I can't usually devote a lot of time to reading. I'm happy when there's a more or less free weekend and I can sit or lay for hours, buried in the book, engrossed in the story. Like I said, this past weekend was like that. I love times like that. But, sadly, that's rare.

The book is great, though. This is my first time reading the Dark Tower series, and I've been reading the books back to back (to back to back... etc.) for about a year now, I guess. A wonderful reading experience.

Letti
11-18-2008, 02:37 PM
Do you like this book so far?

Oh, sure. And I'm enjoying it very much. I'm taking my time because I can't usually devote a lot of time to reading. I'm happy when there's a more or less free weekend and I can sit or lay for hours, buried in the book, engrossed in the story. Like I said, this past weekend was like that. I love times like that. But, sadly, that's rare.

The book is great, though. This is my first time reading the Dark Tower series, and I've been reading the books back to back (to back to back... etc.) for about a year now, I guess. A wonderful reading experience.

It's the journey of my life. :)
Keep on reading. I am rereading it these days.

John_and_Yoko
11-19-2008, 07:57 PM
Wow. :beat:

I am SO sorry I didn't see this in so long!

Thank you very much for replying, though, and I'm particularly impressed by the length and organization of your reply!

Yeah, you're right, the above review is very raw and disorganized, but bear in mind that I'd JUST finished reading it when I wrote that. I don't have time just at present, but at some point I probably will want to go back and revise it, clean it up, make it generally better quality.

I do appreciate your suggestions, though, and they make sense to me. In the case of the sci-fi/fantasy idea, I'm coming to appreciate the term "speculative fiction" more and more, because it's becoming more and more obvious to me that genre categories (or ANY categories, really) are not hard and fast rules, but very often the barriers are shattered entirely. That was one thing I enjoyed about The Princess Bride, for example, and that I enjoy about The Dark Tower.

Your whole "jaded" commentary I'm not quite sure what you meant by, but I'm interested in going deeper into that as well.

And yeah, I do need to be more objective about the King--while he is the author I'm the most comfortable with and most impressed by at this point, it is a fact that I don't like EVERYTHING he's chosen to do, and I'm not ashamed to admit it. Again, I was on kind of a Dark Tower high when I wrote that review.

I also like your suggestion about Patrick Danville, as it reminds me of Sam in The Lord of the Rings. While Bilbo wrote the equivalent of The Hobbit, and Frodo the equivalent of The Lord of the Rings, Frodo says at the end, "The last pages are for you, Sam." It could even tie into my earlier reference to The Princess Bride, which purports to be an abridgement of an earlier work--at the end of the preface Goldman says "What you do with it will be of more than passing interest to us all," which indicates that he is inviting us the readers to get creative with it, and not feel bound to a particular vision.

And as for the obsession angle, yeah, I see your point--I just think that in terms of the major characters I was seeing more of the "good purpose" in the earlier volumes (like Roland's ka-tet), and more of the "bad obsession" in the later ones. But your examples are the exceptions that prove the rule.

As for the Susannah ending, I'd like to go further into detail about what you mean--if true, that could prove interesting, but I'm not quite seeing it. All I'm seeing so far is a "fake" world that rings hollow as a "happy ending." I'd like to discuss it more at length sometime....

As for "Is Roland a hero?", the recent debate over what constitutes a protagonist in the Best Supporting Character Award thread got me interested in that kind of idea (yes, it's protagonist vs. actual hero, but still).

Anyway, thanks again for replying, and once again I'm sorry it took me so long to realize it. I'd really like to have more such discussions in future. :)

EDIT: By the way, I did an essay about The Shining in that book's thread, if you're interested.... I think it's considerably better....

BoogerSnax
11-19-2008, 08:27 PM
My history with the series is that I read the first book and part of the second, in the early 90's, and lost interest, but recently, felt drawn to it again, and have plowed through everything, starting around 5 months ago. At this point, I'm roughly half way through book 7, and all of a sudden, the going is slow.
What's striking me is that it feels not exactly contrived, but forced, at this point in the story. It feels as if a neverending story is being put to bed, and not entirely by choice. Perhaps when I get to the end, it will feel differently, but I'm suspecting it won't.
The series seems like a total flight of fancy. Meandering wherever the writer's mind chooses to go, at whatever stage in his life. From the early, almost hamfisted, book 1, it rather takes on a life of it's own, dealing with the types of things that a person deals with at different stages of their life, giving the impression that an openended journey is quite possible.
From some of the author's notes in the later editions, it seems like outside forces, and not a need for closure, are what drew the series to an end.

Wuducynn
11-20-2008, 05:10 AM
Spoilers for the series up to but not including DT7, below

















A lot of what King's diary at the end of SOS is actually true from what I've read. The series has come to him in fits and spurts over the years since he was 18. So yeah there is a "stream of consciousness" to it, up to Wolves. It was after his accident that a lot the series finally clicked to him. Which is why he wanted to do a re-write of the series, especially The Gunslinger and Drawing of The Three which is on his backburner for now last I've heard.

BoogerSnax
11-20-2008, 06:56 AM
Part of what spawned this particular train of thought for me, was reading around the forum last night. Something that really got the wheels turning was a long thread about the "rape scene" in Tull.
I chose not to add anything to that one, as I saw that it is a touchy subject for some, and I don't yet know the dynamics of the social order on this site.

However, in seeing how much time and thought had been invested in that discussion, how much symbolism and backstory imbued into the "scene", it really struck me about the stream of consciousness.
I see the first book as a completely different entity from the others. The drug and alcohol fueled beginning of a story that the author was too young to be embarking on.

I saw that scene as a young man, writing about a young man, filled with anger, grief, rage, and a host of other emotions, taking it all out on the embodiment of his nemesis, by simply, sticking a gun up her ****.

No more, no less. In hindsight, tomes of symbolism and metaphor could be ascribed to the scene. But I simply see it the way a young man would see it, and as thus write it in the only way he knew how.

Wuducynn
11-20-2008, 07:41 AM
Don't worry about discussing things that might be sensitive, believe me. I can't think of a topic that hasn't been discussed on this message board.
As far as The Gunslinger goes, King agreed with you and that's why he did a revision to it. Up until the revision it was my least favorite of the series for the reasons you and he talk about.
It felt disconnected from the rest of the series and because of the time between each up until Wolves there was inconsistences in the series, especially noticable in the first two.

pathoftheturtle
11-20-2008, 08:12 AM
No need to apologize; one of the nice things about online forums is that we can get together as time permits... these are saved discussions. :D I trust you'll excuse me, too, if, for example, it takes me a while to get to that The Shining thread. Sounds cool, alright, but I've got a few other things to do already. I'll get there soon enough, though, I hope. :) As a matter of fact, it might be ka that you just noticed this thread; just as I worried when I last posted, I haven't been much available to the site since, but just now I'm trying to be moreso.


...Perhaps in a bygone day one might have answered such a question by saying that heroes don’t need a reason to be heroic, but in our jaded world of today it seems futile without a specific reason, and so Browning doesn’t give one. ...What I was wondering was, first off, whether or not you were right about Browning's motivations for not making clear his Roland's purpose, and, secondly, whether King's form of vagueness really does stem from the same ones.


...Much was made (especially by author T. H. White, who satirized the legend in his epic, The Once and Future King) of the oddly-shaped Beast, after which King Pellinore quested for no reason other than that it gave him a purpose—gave meaning to his life. ...Absolutely. So why did White do that? Do you think that Arthur's own quest for the Holy Grail had any other reason than that? Had our society progressed past such purpose by White's lifetime? Has it done so since? Do you think that that's what Stephen King is talking about?

Again, I just meant it as some things to think about in preparation, if and when you do decide to revise this. Hope it helps. :)

John_and_Yoko
11-20-2008, 12:08 PM
Wow. Thanks for replying so quickly! :D

And that's fine if it takes some time--it IS similarly long, though much more organized and hopefully less unwarranted bias and better quality overall.

I think I'm going to have to re-read and perhaps rewrite (parts of) the essay, because I think I understand the Browning poem a little better now than I did when I wrote that (I won't say I understand it completely). But yeah, I think I need to re-think that claim about the Browning poem.

Also, King may well have had a somewhat different intent in mind (as evidenced by the fact that we find out what the Dark Tower is in his epic, and Roland DOES need to save it). Actually I've recently read a review contrasting the two, and while I don't like to give the author too much credit (he criticizes Stephen King and praises Harold Bloom, for example, so I don't trust him already), I can't help wondering whether he might have a point. He actually suggests that Browning's Roland actually influences his surroundings and so it's at least partly because of him that the setting is a barren wasteland--that he effectively BECOMES the Dark Tower, in other words. This author saw that as a fundamental omission (read "flaw") in Stephen King's epic, since his Roland isn't like that at all.

Even if this is completely inaccurate (as I'd like to believe, considering who it's coming from), it's at least got me thinking about it.

I'm also probably going to have to re-read The Once and Future King again, because now I think about it, I think you're right. The Quest for the Holy Grail in T. H. White was meant to address the stagnation of Camelot now that all rights had been wronged, and the corresponding restlessness of the Knights of the Round Table. In fact, I could have delved deeper into that subject, since some people have suggested that Browning's Dark Tower might have contained the Holy Grail itself. (Not to mention the other obvious Arthurian connections, and not just in Stephen King's epic....)

Anyway, I have a lot on my plate at present, and may well continue to until next summer or so--but at some point I probably will re-read it, and hopefully try to improve upon it. Thanks again for replying, as I really enjoy discussing this with you! :D

John_and_Yoko
11-20-2008, 12:19 PM
Heh....

Now I want to know exactly what those inconsistencies in the first two were....

I mean, I've read Volume II, but I've only ever read the revised version of Volume I, and while I swore I'd never read the original, now I'm curious just to see what's being talked about here.... I know now that Stephen King first become sober around the time Volume II came out, or thereabouts, so he may have been writing "under the influence" for the first two, but I don't really know specifically what that means....

And what exactly are the sources for this information, because I REALLY want to read more about it....

Ves'Ka Gan
11-20-2008, 09:47 PM
Part of the reason I think that the majority of the series meanders and goes where it will is because for the majority of the series, that is (to an extent) what Roland is doing. He only knows to follow the Beam, so he goes where it takes him.

In the last book, he knows he is close, so he trods on, straight ahead.

That's my take anyway.

BoogerSnax
11-21-2008, 04:50 AM
Which is why I feel that the final book is, for lack of a better word, forced. Granted, I'm only half way through it, so my opinion is fluid at this point.

The story was never meant to end. At least that is my feeling. Sure, King may have always been working towards it, but only in as much as one occurance or locale, points to another destination.
It was a totally "safe" zone for a writer to escape to. Where the story was free to roam as it would. Where connections and themes could be explored, with no expectation of actual finality from the reader, and none imagined, by the author.

As was noted above, outside forces in his real world perhaps compelled him to flesh out an ending before it was finally too late. And as my own stream of consciousness has led me through this lateast thought, perhaps that is point of the final book after all.

Wuducynn
11-21-2008, 05:31 AM
I don't feel any of the books feel forced or rushed for that matter. I just feel the pace is different depending on the part of the saga. The pace picks up in the last two books because that's just how the story came to King.

Ves'Ka Gan
11-21-2008, 02:45 PM
Which is why I feel that the final book is, for lack of a better word, forced. Granted, I'm only half way through it, so my opinion is fluid at this point.

The story was never meant to end. At least that is my feeling. Sure, King may have always been working towards it, but only in as much as one occurance or locale, points to another destination.
It was a totally "safe" zone for a writer to escape to. Where the story was free to roam as it would. Where connections and themes could be explored, with no expectation of actual finality from the reader, and none imagined, by the author.

As was noted above, outside forces in his real world perhaps compelled him to flesh out an ending before it was finally too late. And as my own stream of consciousness has led me through this lateast thought, perhaps that is point of the final book after all.


read on. I think you might actually be pleasantly surpised.

John_and_Yoko
11-22-2008, 11:05 AM
I've been thinking it over, and I think what I need is to actually rewrite, rather than simply revise, this thing.

As I said, it's a review written RIGHT after I finished the series, so I was on a post-DT high, really.

But now I've had some time to get over it and look at it in a more objective manner--which means I can write an actual essay rather than a subjective review. And I have had some ideas already....

What I want to focus on is the "Wasteland" mythological motif, because I believe that, at heart, that is the kind of story that The Dark Tower is. The difference is that in this case it is not a king that is ailing but a tower--a phallic (thus male) symbol, and rather than it just being a single land that is barren as a result, every reality is in jeopardy, is "moving on." This latter phrase sounds to me like a modern way of saying "barren" that incorporates the concept of time within it. This motif would allow me to compare the series not only to the Browning poem (and T. S. Eliot's "The Waste Land"), but also the Grail Quest of Arthurian legend and perhaps even the present day.

In fact, I think the Horn of Eld in the next loop is significant, as it's a female symbol, like the Grail itself....

While I'm at it, perhaps I could even get into the paternal filicide motif of Insomnia--I don't know the proper term for that kind of story, but it is at heart the "old god vs. new god" story, which even featured in Arthurian legend with Arthur and Mordred.... Those are father vs. son stories, and I know the Crimson King isn't Patrick Danville's father, but it's the same kind of story, and I think it's worth exploring....

pathoftheturtle
11-25-2008, 11:41 AM
Sounds good.

I think you really got my point about the different authors that time.

I'll give more thought to what I meant about Susannah's ending. Maybe we'll get into that on another thread.

Like I said, I see lots of potential here; definitely like to see what you do with it, ultimately. :)

Letti
11-29-2008, 01:47 AM
I don't feel any of the books feel forced or rushed for that matter. I just feel the pace is different depending on the part of the saga. The pace picks up in the last two books because that's just how the story came to King.

I am with Matthew.
I have favourite parts and less favourite parts still the whole series seems perfect to me.
About the pace... I always felt it damn quick because I had just started to read the book and I got to the end way too quickly.

Glady
12-13-2008, 12:44 PM
In my opinion, The Dark Tower is more than a book and, thus, its journey-feeling is more important than the way the book is written. I think it was an important journey for King himself and that justifies the pace. I think that it was actually meant to be a bit... irregular, it makes it more real.

Matt of Gilead
12-15-2008, 08:09 PM
Which is why I feel that the final book is, for lack of a better word, forced. Granted, I'm only half way through it, so my opinion is fluid at this point.

The story was never meant to end. At least that is my feeling. Sure, King may have always been working towards it, but only in as much as one occurance or locale, points to another destination.
It was a totally "safe" zone for a writer to escape to. Where the story was free to roam as it would. Where connections and themes could be explored, with no expectation of actual finality from the reader, and none imagined, by the author.

Well, SK has said that he hates endings, and it shows in many of his works. In my opinion, this includes DT7.
But only the last chapter. The epilogue and coda are both very good.

nmccready
12-21-2008, 11:54 PM
I finally finished the DT series last night. I just discovered these forums and thought I'd try to rate the books individually and get some of the things that bothered me about the last two books out of my mind by writing them down.

The Gunslinger: 9/10 Great intro to the series, got me hooked.

Drawing of the Three: 8/10 Some parts bored me, King got too caught up on details. But over all another good one.

Wastelands: 9/10 A great adventure, I felt like I was there on the journey to the Dark Tower.

Wizard and Glass: 10/10 My favorite book of the series, I really loved the story of Roland's past.

Wolves of the Calla: 8/10 This one felt drawn out. I was waiting for the wolves to attack from the first chapter. Wasn't a let down though, I thought it ended well.

Song of Susannah: 4/10 What was the deal with this one? King's attempt to place himself in the story felt extremely feeble. This book was hardly worth reading, far too much time was wasted with the librarian and the pregnancy.

The Dark Tower: 5/10 More crap with King's insertion of himself into the story. But once that was done with things started getting more interesting. I was expecting all of Roland's Ka-tet to die before he got to the tower. Instead of helping Roland reach the Dark Tower, face the Crimson King, and deal with Mordrid... Susannah spits in the faces of her dead lover and friend by abandoning the Gunslinger and living the rest of her life happily in an unreal world with phony versions of Eddie and Jake. Awesome. Then, Roland's ultimate nemesis is destroyed by an idiot boy's eraser. Classic. Okay... things can't get any worse. But apparently they can. All we find in the Dark Tower is a trip through Roland's past (which we've already seen) and someone we've never really heard of called Gann. He is the tower/some sort of God? Who knows. King ends it with a pathetic attempt to bring his story full circle at the top of the tower. I wasn't wanting or expecting a happy ending... but this? No questions answered, no nothing. Roland's friends died for nothing, and he is stuck in an indefinite loop. I guess I should have seen this coming... "Ka like a wheel" was to be taken extremely literally.

Anyways, I'll apologize in advance if I made some spelling errors or reached inaccurate conclusions to parts of the story. I listened to the entire series via Audiobook, most of the time when I was rather tired. I've never read a Stephen King book outside of the DT series, and the way this series fell flat for me, I don't think I ever intend to. Does anyone have any thoughts on my rant?

ManOfWesternesse
12-22-2008, 08:22 AM
You need to give it some time to sink in a bit (some people found that helped), but even with that I'm not sure you're gonna come round to it (some don't).
There's a LOT of existing threads here on this whole subject. Have a look at what people have posted and see if it helps. personally I loved the tale all the way - including King inserting himself in the story etc...

.. and no apologies needed, you'll find a lot of differing opinions here on this whole subject.

flaggwalkstheline
12-24-2008, 08:16 AM
re-read the ending of DT7/ restart of DT1 again
you may notice a little teensy detail which blows your mind even more
Roland has the horn of Gilead, meaning it COULD be different this time:rose:

Empath of the White
12-27-2008, 05:51 PM
I share a lot of your sentiments. I recommend putting the books down for maybe a year or two then reread them and see how you feel about the Ves Ka Gan. I'm growing to accept it, though I'm still trying to figure out why its necessary for King to tell their story, in the context of the novels of course..

I do disagree with you about the Crimson King though. I never really felt that either Mordred, the King, or the Ageless Stranger qualified as Roland's ulitmate nemesis. There's two characters I feel fit that title: Sylvia Pittston and Rhea of the Coos. He was more an obstacle, simply a guardian of the Tower (the Crimson King, that is). I do recommend you read Black House. That will explain some of the reasons behind things that occurred in DT7. My gripe with SOS was that instead of heading into End-World, it was back to New York. Perfectly understandable for Susannah-Mio (what pregant woman would want to cross a poisoned wasteland to bear a child? No telling what the air of Thunderclap would do to the mother or child) though.

Darkthoughts
12-28-2008, 01:34 PM
I'm moving this thread to Gilead as it discusses the entire series and not just the last book.

I'll also be merging it with another "review" thread and then giving it a more general title. The reason being that, while you bring up many valid points, there are plenty of existing threads to discuss all aspects of the series and really, if everyone started posting their own reviews of the book the threads would become self serving and would not generate discussion between members :thumbsup:

chris777
04-14-2009, 07:41 AM
**SPOILERS**

First of all, I liked the series as a whole A LOT. Great book. Great ending. It's so hard to have a good ending, and I think SK did well enough. With that said, here are some of my major complaints:

Mordred:
He was supposed to be this Demi-God character. He was a BABY and killed one of the most powerful characters in the story with his MIND. Then he goes following the ka-tet, and wills birds and critters to him, so he can eat them. But for some reason, he can't do this with Deer? Or buffalo? Or any other animal? I'm confused?? And why can he kill walter with his mind...but can't do anything close to that with Roland and Susannah or any of the ka-tet? WHY?! He almost dies pissing, shitting and vomiting on himself..yet he's supposed to be this demi-god character? Every prohpecy came true, as far as a Gunsliger coming to save the tower, etc etc...EXCEPT the one where Mordred would kill his father.

Crimson King:
Why not have mordred be the one to kill Crimson King. That could have been what the prophecy MEANT to say. Because honestly, a little boy drawing him then erasing him is what did it? Seriously? He's an old crazy white haired santa looking guy? And he's like the King of the universes basically.

Marten/Flagg/Walter:
He's been alive forever, was second in command to the Crimson King. Some sort of Demon Mage, but he dies to a baby? One that got sick off a clown, and beat up by a BUMBLER.

Darkthoughts
04-14-2009, 07:54 AM
Welcome Chris!

I've merged your thread with this existing one. Take a look around, we have some great discussions going in here and in the Mid World forums in general :thumbsup:

Randal Flagg
05-05-2009, 01:48 PM
Well, last night I finally read the last words of The Dark Tower. I've been reading the series since last May, and feel like I myself have arrived at the end of a long journey of my own (somewhat fitting that I should finish it right before I graduate college then). Anyway, now that I've officially finished, I can finally rank the books, so here they are, from my least favorite to favorite. I'm also curious to know how you'd rank the books yourselves, and why.

Song of Susannah
Probably my least favorite of the series, but i actually accomplishes its task admirably. That task is to bridge books 5 and 7. Although there isn't a whole lot going on throughout most of the book, it does a good job setting things up for the finale. The emphasis on Susannah is annoying, as I never liked her character as much as Roland, Eddie, or Jake, so I think the book might have been better If I got to spend more time with them.

The Gunslinger
The only book of the series that actually functions perfectly well on its own. It would probably be higher on my list if it was longer. I'm also not sure that it serves as a very good introduction to Roland, since it is so hard to sympathise with him, though I get that we're supposed to see that he's determined and single minded. Although I guess it helps to make his transformation towards the end of the series more dramatic. A good read, but something about it feels a little disjointed, and it feels rather disconnected from the rest of the series.

The Drawing of the Three
This is where the series started throwing curveballs at me. I never expected the real world to play a role in a fantasy series. It ended up working out in the end, with the whole multiple universes thing, but I was a bit thrown off by it at the time. I like that we get to see Roland growing already, as shown when he saves Jake. The only problem with it is that it tends to drag in some places, notably between The Lady of the Shadows and the Pusher.

Wizard and Glass
I thouroughly enjoyed the flashback to Roland's past. This book suffers from the same problem as Drawing but it's made up for by the fact that it answers so many questions, like who Susan and Cuthbert and Alain were, though we got a glimpse at some of them in The Gunslinger. The fact that Roland was so Influenced by the Wizard Glass makes his character more sympathetic in my eyes. The action scenes are exceptionally well written, and I love the scene in the bar where Roland's Ka-tet get the drop on the Big Coffin Hunters, with a slingshot and a couple knives.

The Dark Tower
The finale felt like multiple books really. I thought that it brought the series to a close very effectively. I was tempted to stop reading when Steven King told me to, but I knew that I'd eventually succumb to the temptation anyway. I personally would have ended it before the epilogue. The resurrection of Eddie and Jake cheapens their deaths in my opinion. The book is a bloodbath. I'm somwhat torn on Walter's death though. On the one hand, it's a very graphic scene that provided such a despicable man with a death that is both fitting for his crimes and his character, but on the other hand it seemed like the only reason it happened was to make the reader think "OMG MORDRED IS STRONGER THAN FLAGG AND HE'S JUST A BABY WHAT ARE THEY GONNA DO?!?!?" On the whole though, a quality book. I actually got shivers when Roland entered the tower calling out the names of his friends.

Wolves of the Calla
I like this book for its realism. It feels very weird to say that, but it's true. I like the fact that the book is mostly preparation, and that most of the violence is confined to a single chapter. There were some times when I would have made Roland's "go on" gesture, but it was nice to see how the peope of mid-world live. Also, the large preparation finally gives us a sense of the outright desperation of their situation, the fact that they have so much to do in so little time. I also really enjoyed Father Callahan's character, and I now really want to read 'Salem's Lot.

The Waste Lands
I loved this book. In this book Roland's Ka-tet fights a giant cyborg bear, a haunted house which comes to life, two warring urban tribes, and a demon train who likes riddles. I remember thinking "man this series has everything! The scenes where Jake is running through THe Mansion as it comes to life around him is particularly intense, and the boo was very well written. The cliffhanger at the end didn't annoy me as much as it must have the people waiting for years between books, but I still had to wait for Wizard and Glass to arrive in the mail, so it was still something I had to contend with. Still, it was a very frustrating cliffhanger, which makes it effective.

Those are my views anyway. What are yours?

Darkthoughts
05-05-2009, 02:52 PM
Welcome to the site :rock:

I have merged your thread with the existing one on overall impressions of the series. Take a look at some of the discussions we have going on in each individual book's section...and get stuck in! :thumbsup:

Echof0xtrot
05-12-2009, 10:58 PM
first of all, i'm new to the forums. nice to be here :)

second of all, i just finished the DT series for the second time -- on audiobook, i might add (i hope that's not some sort of mortal sin here). as such, i have questions. muchas preguntas, as our friends in mejis might say. i did a little surfing and thought this looked like the forum to ask those questions and possibly find the answers. please don't prove me wrong.

i was never a big fan of text walls, so i'll break these up into individual threads. either look for interesting titles/subjects on this particular board (Gilead) or just search by my name.

here's the first one...is roland's world our world's future? let me explain...i know there are distinctions between keystone earth and the keystone tower world, but with all the similarities between the two (ex. gas pumps, hey jude, the western motiff, the similarities in spoken and, to a lesser degree, written language, etc.) it's kind of hard to ignore how alike the two are. also, the obvious existence of time travel makes this fact theoretically possible.

are we the "great old ones?" did we go too far with technology, plunging the world into a second dark age from which only a great leader like Arthur Eld could save us? this very site's towerpedia states that the great old ones created north central positronics...yes, i know it's possible for them to have survived all the way from the time of the great old ones, through the great war, through the troubled waters that followed, through the rise and fall of Arthur Eld, gunslingers, and Gilead, all the while, expanding their reach to as many whens and wheres as possible (thus being present in keystone earth and keystone tower at once), but isn't it at least a possibility NCP was incorporated on keystone earth/keystone tower, all this time one and the same?

this concept may be a stretch for some, even myself, but i just can't ignore what roland says near the end of the final book, how he compares the new york skyline to that of Lud. more than comparing, though...he recognizes it as what Lud was in it's prime. according to Roland (and I'd trust him, he's been around the block...and around, and around, and around ;) ) Lud is new york's future. the cities are one and the same, thus part of the same world, thus the keystone earth and keystone tower worlds are one and the same...in theory :)

palaver amongst yourselves and let me know what you think.

mia/susannah
05-13-2009, 02:29 AM
Welcome to the site, I tend to agree with you. it seems as though we could be the great old ones, and Rolands world, or time is our future.

Jean
05-14-2009, 10:24 AM
Echof0xtrot: please mark your spoilers! Thank you http://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k291/mishemplushem/Facilitation/0134-bear.gif

mmagunslinger
05-14-2009, 11:27 AM
I also agree I definetly think we are the great old ones responsible for the great collapse so to speak. Ive always been interested in the post apocolypse type setting but this series goes alot further. I think Kings gives hints to it throughout the series without ever reallly saying it like the Citgo Pumps, hey jude, The posters under the dixie pig about certain dates like sept 11th

Letti
05-14-2009, 01:09 PM
Welcome to the site, Echof0xtrot. Good to see you here. I hope you will enjoy being here. Believe me there are lots of things to discover.

Soon we will merge this thread with this: The DT Series - your thoughts.

pathoftheturtle
05-17-2009, 09:27 AM
first of all, i'm new to the forums. nice to be here :) ...Nice to have you here. Welcome. :D

...is roland's world our world's future?...No, I don't believe so.

...according to Roland (and I'd trust him, he's been around the block...and around, and around, and around ;) ) Lud is new york's future. the cities are one and the same, thus part of the same world, thus the keystone earth and keystone tower worlds are one and the same...in theory :)...That's not necessarily so, or even necessarily what Roland was thinking. They could be twinners. Just because two universes have some things in common doesn't prove that they are one and the same. If Keystone Rose and Tower Keystone are the same world, that means that the Tet Corp was unsuccessful in the long run at stopping NCP. That would beg the question of what the point of their mission to "the past" was. If they couldn't change anything, then why bother?
If they did change the future, on the other hand, and Roland's world is their future, then his world should not have stayed the same.
What I think is that these are similar worlds with distinct time-lines and relatively separate destinies. Of course, they still do tie together because of the inter-universal powers in these stories, so that question of what the big point was in saving "keystone" Earth, nonetheless, is an important one.:pullhair:I have been talking a lot about this topic lately, if you're interested. Please check out recent threads in the DT7 Barony, the thread The nature of the Rose *hard spoilers* (http://www.thedarktower.org/palaver/showthread.php?t=2179), and various other quotes like this one:
...Early on, we readers wondered about the social elements of our Earth that turned up in the books... the idea that Mid-World was literally the same "universe" as The Stand, further into the future, seemed fairly plausible. Now, it appears more likely that it's the mystic connection that is the real, main explaination: things like those recur between timelines because all of them share a common origin and guiding center. ...That is to say, The Tower. :orely:

Echof0xtrot
05-21-2009, 06:40 PM
SPOILERS

i guess we're putting all new questions in this one thread, so ill pose my newest one in a reply here and hope it gets seen by enough to get a response.

it is hinted on and off how old roland is...he's the last living member of a long-lost civilization that died out thousands of years ago. that in itself lends evidence to roland being that old, or more. but then the notion of "time slipping forward" rears its ugly head. no one knows how old they are or how long they have been somewhere or when their next dental appointment is because time is always slipping and is never constant. i get that. here's my question -- how old is roland really? disregarding time slipping forward (if that's possible) about how old do we think he is? try to incorporate how old his gunna(sp?...i listened to the story, didn't read it) looks to eddie and susannah, especially the bottomless money bag, as well as the instantaneous aging of the revolver susannah takes through the final door.

also, does his age have anything to do with the fact that <<SPOILER>> roland keeps reliving the same story. do we think his age carries over each time, making him older and older each trip though the mohaine? does he possibly not only gain new pieces of his past (i.e. the horn at the end of book 7) but possibly retain his age? could this possibly be putting a time limit on his quest? maybe he only has the ability to relive his story until the climb up the tower's barrel finally kills him.

lastly, if roland really just is THAT OLD, then who's to say there aren't more like him? more survivors of the fall of gilead wandering the wastes...certainly a possibility if the sole reason for his longevity are the ever more prevalent time slips.

pathoftheturtle
05-23-2009, 10:35 AM
...i guess we're putting all new questions in this one thread...Actually, we prefer to NOT do that. This is a fairly broad topic, but it is really just a place to collect general reviews of the series from those who haven't gotten into the separated lines of inquiry. Aside from making the thread harder to follow, posting all of your thoughts on various questions here would make other existing threads poorer, since people reading them won't know that more has been said on their topics. Please read How old is Roland? (http://www.thedarktower.org/palaver/showthread.php?t=7692) and copy the points you just made onto it. In future, try looking for keywords with the "Search" function on the top menu. For simple questions, we also have this Quick Q&A regarding The Dark Tower (http://www.thedarktower.org/palaver/showthread.php?t=1229) thread.


...also, does his age have anything to do with the fact that roland keeps reliving the same story. do we think his age carries over each time, making him older and older each trip though the mohaine? does he possibly not only gain new pieces of his past (i.e. the horn at the end of book 7) but possibly retain his age? could this possibly be putting a time limit on his quest? maybe he only has the ability to relive his story until the climb up the tower's barrel finally kills him....You'll see how to properly mark spoilers if you hit the Quote button on this post. You could hit the Edit button on your own post to correct that, but it's no big deal: although this is a no spoiler board, this thread is marked for spoilers. (as is that existing How Old Is Roland? thread) Even here, though, you should mark spoilers for any non-DT series books or other works which you might mention; there's a special button on the new post menu for labeling what you spoil. Example:The planet of the apes is Earth!!!

jayson
05-23-2009, 10:39 AM
...there's a special button on the new post menu for labeling what you spoil. Example:The planet of the apes is Earth!!!

Best illustration of spoiler function ever.:clap:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eVr1n1ha-LA

Echof0xtrot
05-23-2009, 07:21 PM
sorry about that, i have spoilers figured out now. as for posting here rather than creating a new thread, i chose here because my previous thread was moved here (and to me it seemed like it needed its own thread) so i just thought thats how it was done. ill search more, and decide if i should start a new thread or add to this one in the future. sorry, again.

pathoftheturtle
05-26-2009, 08:33 AM
...my previous thread was moved here (and to me it seemed like it needed its own thread)...Well, keep at it. :) It can take some time for the moderators to feel that you know how to contribute to this site. You may have a point; I can't say exactly why it was merged here. However, I'm sure that no one meant to make you feel unwelcome or to dis your input.
It might have helped if it'd been in a spoiler forum.
Then again, I know that I am not the only one who has discussed that issue at length before. Might be a good idea to read more of the threads we already have.
Anyroad, tho, thanks for being here and sharing your perspective.:clap:

Echof0xtrot
05-26-2009, 12:01 PM
the last thing i want is for the moderators (or anyone else, for that matter) to feel like they are making me feel unwanted. that's not it at all. i'm just new and, as you said, might not have the insight as to where threads need to be posted. give me a bit, i'll turn out all right ;)

jayson
05-26-2009, 12:04 PM
Echof0xtrot, it's a big place around here. I'm sure you'll find your way around just fine. Just keep posting. It's good to have you here. :)

Darkthoughts
05-30-2009, 02:43 PM
Hey Echo! We love new members who jump right in - the reason your thread was merged in here was that, if we saved each individual "I read the series and have a few questions..." thread, there would be thousands of them. This thread is for people to give their own reviews/philosophies etc on the books in general, for more specific discussion (as Path has said) try checking out Gilead/The Baronies/Town Commons etc, as this section of the site (the Mid World forum) is dedicated to DT discussion.

We have covered many topics, if you read through you may find points you have bought up being discussed in exactly the way you wanted to discuss them.

:thumbsup:

pathoftheturtle
10-09-2009, 12:32 PM
Moving to here interesting comments made on a non-spoiler thread.

...Book I is more about mood; Book II is about action; Books III and on are very poorly written and for some reason obsessed on putting the world of The Dark Tower together with every other book King has written. ...I think that you need to realize that there is actually a good reason that Book III was named for T.S. Eliot's "The Waste Land."
I agree that King did not so much continue his great creation of the first book with the rest of the series as thereafter increasingly to write about it, but I'm not so sure that this can be so easily dismissed as just "poor writing."
As I've pointed out before to others, at least as early as the first appearance of Jake, King was already stretching boundaries.
One's take on what he did with TDT largely depends, IMO, upon one's fundamental ideas about literature. Love it or hate it, we should all recognize, at least, that it was deliberate.

woodpryan
03-30-2010, 07:25 AM
I attempted to post this last night. After a couple of edits, the forum seemed to just disappear. I'm not sure what happened to it, so here it is again.

Note: the following essay contains spoilers of every Dark Tower book in the series, including the end of the series.

After completing "The Gunslinger" for the fourth time in my life (my first time reading the revised version), I was compelled to write this essay. It is about Roland's loop and whether or not that loop is endless. I'd love to get some thoughts on this from other Dark Tower readers. "The Gunslinger" is such an amazingly thought provoking book. Bare with me, as the essay is a bit lengthy (1100 words).

.. .... ..

“The man in black fled across the desert, and the gunslinger followed.”(3) The opening line to the greatest tale I have ever read. The first time I read through the long novel “The Dark Tower”, I loved the first four volumes. I liked the last three up until the last hundred pages or so of the final volume, and I hated the ending. After a few years of having put the series down, I have picked up the first volume The Gunslinger again. Now that I know the ending of the series, this volume has raised many questions in my mind. At the end of the series, it is revealed that Roland must repeat what we have read over and over until he can do it without damning himself. So the biggest question is, can Roland get to the Dark Tower without making those mistakes, or is he destined to repeat these events for all of eternity?
The mistake that Roland makes, which is most emphasized in The Gunslinger is that Roland allowed the boy, Jake to fall to his death. But is this really a mistake or is it a single chain in a long chain of events that allowed him to reach the Tower? Could he reach the Dark Tower without dropping the boy? When Roland visits the Oracle in the mountains she tells him “The boy is your gate to the man in black. The man in black is your gate to the three. The three are your way to the Dark Tower”(138 ). This line of text seems to suggest that Roland must let the boy die in order to get to the man in black , that Roland must speak to the man in black in order to get to the three, and that Roland must draw his three in order to reach the Dark Tower. But how can we know that what the oracle says is the definite truth? She, herself said, “We see in part, and thus is the mirror of prophecy is darkened.”(138 ). This suggests that the prophecy is not definitive and that the Oracle does not see everything. Then comes the moment of truth in which the boy, Jake is suspended over his doom and Roland must make a choice between saving Jake and catching the man in black. The man in black says “No more games. Come now, gunslinger. Or catch me never.” Again, it is suggested that Roland must let the boy fall to his doom but has Stephen King not already told us that the man in black is full of tricks? King says, “it occurred to him later that this was when he began to love the boy – which was, of course, what the man in black must have planned all along. Was there ever a trap to match the trap of love?”(96). There are many quotes like this one throughout the book, illustrating how tricky the man in black can be. The gunslinger wrestles with himself throughout the last half of the book, trying to decide weather or not to let the boy die. At one point he thinks “The Tower did not have to be obtained in this humiliating, nose rubbing way, did it? Let his quest resume after the boy had a growth of years, when the two of them could cast the man in black aside like a cheap wind-up toy” (197). Could he have done just that? Could he have gone back and trained Jake as a gunslinger, waited ten years, and resumed the quest? Ten years seem to pass after Roland palavers with the man in black in the end anyway. Why not spend it training Jake to be a gunslinger?
Most importantly, there was the prophecy of the oracle. She said the man in black is Roland's gate to the three. But is that also a lie? The man in black, himself negates this at the end of the book when he says, “No one wants to invest you with power of any kind, gunslinger; it is simply in you, and I am compelled to tell you, partly because of the sacrifice of the boy, and partly because it is the law; the natural law of things”(229). This suggests that Roland has the power to draw his three without ever meeting the man in black. In that case, he didn't have to catch him in the first place. He and Jake could have gone on to the beach and drawn the three together. But would Roland have been able to draw his three without the knowledge of his ability to draw them? This is not explained.
But was Jake Roland's only mistake? Roland later saves Jake and spends the rest of the series making up for allowing him to fall in the first place. So didn't he atone for that mistake before reaching the tower? Roland made more mistakes along the way. He made a tactical decision which led to the death of his beloved Susan and the child she carried in Wizard and Glass. He gunned down his mother. He killed every man, woman and child in Tull without a second thought. Later, he regretted it, as is illustrated by him getting the story off his chest when he speaks to the Dweller, Brown. But in the moment, he didn't even think about it.
Roland's quest for the tower is nothing if not noble. He seeks the tower, not to rule over everything like the Crimson King, but to reinstate order in a world of chaos. He seeks the tower to right the wrongs in his world. Do the ends justify the means? It does not appear so, as Roland must repeat these events. But does Roland not do enough good to make up for his mistakes? He saved the boy, Jake in The Wastelands and he saved an so many lives along with Jake, Susannah, and Eddie in Wolves of the Calla. He saved the rose from being demolished in Song of Susannah. He did so many great things along the way during his quest that it is hard to fathom he is not a good man. I think he is a good man. He is the anti-hero. But he is still a hero in his own right.
Because the loop starts at the beginning of the events of The Gunslinger in which he lets the boy die, rather than Wizard and Glass in which he allows Susan to die and kills his mother, one could assume that Jake is the essential reason he must repeat until he does not make the mistakes. Before he forgets everything, Roland thinks it will be different this time because he has the horn of Eld. But, the horn has nothing to do with it. It is the boy, Jake. I believe that, if Roland saves the boy, rather than letting him fall, he can draw his three and reach the Dark Tower without damning his own soul. If he can stand and be true. Be true to Jake.

*all quotes are taken from "The Gunslinger", revised, in trade paper back format.

Jean
03-30-2010, 07:36 AM
Apparently, you couldn't see your post because it took it some time to get past our spam filter. Now that it has been approved, you can see it here (http://www.thedarktower.org/palaver/showthread.php?t=10332) where you posted it.

Now, this thread is likely to be deleted, and the other one will stay for some time, then be merged.

Merlin1958
03-30-2010, 08:49 AM
I just don't buy the "dropping Jake is why he repeats" theory. As you stated he later rights that wrong (Jake does tell him to let go "there are other worlds than these".), which in fact was originally perpetrated by the MIB/Mort. Roland actually prevents the entire series of events that lead up to the cave and eventually draws Jake willingly into Mid-World, more like destiny. Also, the folks in Tull were trying to kill Roland so it was really self-defense, not wholesale slaughter.

To me, it seems that the events prior to "The man in Black fled........" go more toward making Roland the chosen one or emissary, since he repeats the loop from that exact moment in time, which would seem to indicate that it is something he does from that point in his quest and forward that will determine whether or not he will reach the Tower. If he has done something prior to that point in time that damns him (like the Susan debacle) then the story really has no chance for a point as he has no control over those past events.

I still remain baffled by the loop and especially the Horn. Why would an item from a past event (prior to the desert and MIB) have significance? Unless his entire quest is some sort of simile for his original sins and each choice he makes on his quest to the Tower rights a wrong (or confirms it) from his past and the fact that he gets the Horn in the end shows that he has made progress in this loop.

I've read the damn thing 4 times as well and though I love the story and all its twists and turns I still always end with the feeling that King was stuck for an ending. LOL Actually, if you have read all his books, that's kinda his M.O. Great stories, lousy or questionable endings. Still you just gotta love the ride!!!!

Anyway that's just my humble and simple opinion on the matter.

:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:

woodpryan
03-30-2010, 02:35 PM
well, there are two things about Tull that I noticed to be mistakes. In the original text, Roland kills Allie, who has been taken prisoner by Sheb. She could have been spared. In the revised version, this killing is made out to look more human, as she has already been driven insane by the time he guns her down (a change I was unhappy with, by the way). The other thing is that, the last few people he killed in Tull were attempting to flee when he began shooting them from behind. So the last five or ten people could have been let go with no harm to Roland. Those two things were mistakes. The rest of it, I agree, was self defense and justified. However, Roland knew a trap had been set for him in Tull and that if he stayed too long, it would be sprung. Yet, he stayed anyway. That was another mistake. I can get quotes if that needs to be supported directly from the text. On the whole, Tull seems to be another one of those unfortunate events for Roland that could have been avoided and was not.

woodpryan
03-30-2010, 03:24 PM
On the other hand, Tull happened before the loop begins anyway. So that can't be part of it either. If Tull is a part of it and the events of Wizard and Glass are a part of it, then Roland is stuck in an endless loop... which really sucks.

SynysterSaint
03-30-2010, 05:59 PM
woodpryan:

Tull seems to me to be a representation of Mejis. Sheb is the best example; he is even the piano player in the tavern! Along with Sheb, you have the witch who is clearly a throw-back to Rhea. When Roland entered the town of Tull and encountered the citizens, I believe that he had horrible flash-backs of Mejis and the time he had spent there. With everything that we learned about in Wizard & Glass I think it is totally understandable that Roland would have gone a bit insane and murdered everyone, including those citizens who were trying to flee. Can you tell me that if you were in his position you would have done anything differently?

An interesting side note: if I remember right, the man he met on the out-skirts of town that owned the raven Zoltan was also the first man to throw husks at Susan as she was being ridden into town for charyou tree. In my opinion, Roland acted like a saint under the circumstances for as long as he could. I would have been shooting much faster than he had.

woodpryan
03-30-2010, 06:14 PM
Interesting. I never noticed that. Now that you mention it, that seems to make quite a bit of sense.

osseolax28
03-31-2010, 07:38 PM
can u get the page number for that? Was it really Brown who cast the first husk?

woodpryan
03-31-2010, 08:20 PM
I can't find information that would lead me to believe that Brown threw the first cornshucks at Susan. It appears that some of the women came and dropped them at and on Susan's feet. Some of them slapped her and one spit in her eye. Red paint was thrown onto her hands by Cordelia. I don't see Brown anywhere though.

Jean
04-01-2010, 12:40 AM
I think this is what you mean:


Nothing was clear to Susan until she saw the man with the long red hair and the
straw hat which did not quite obscure his lamb-slaughterer's eyes; the man with
the cornshucks in his hands. He was the first, just a farmer (she had glimpsed
him in the Lower Market, she thought; had even nodded to him, as countryfolk
do, and he back to her), standing by himself not far from the place where Silk
Ranch Road and the Great Road intersected, standing in the light of the rising
moon. Until they came upon him, nothing was clear; after he hurled his bundle of
cornshucks at her as she passed, standing in the slowly rolling cart with her
hands bound in front of her and her head lowered and a rope around her neck,
everything was clear.

woodpryan
04-01-2010, 07:15 AM
Found it. If you're looking at the first plume edition (red cover) trade paper back, it's on page 602. I was thinking I knew it was there, but I just couldn't find it for some reason.

SynysterSaint
04-01-2010, 07:19 AM
Thank you very much, Jean! :rose: That's exactly what I was referring to. Isn't Brown described as having almost the exact same features (even the red hair)? I'm in lecture so don't have my books available at the moment or I'd look it up myself ><

osseolax28
04-01-2010, 08:31 AM
WOW thats really interesting. In my opinion i agree with you that the man described is in fact Brown. Thats a great find! Not sure what it means though.

Jean
04-01-2010, 10:32 AM
Thank you very much, Jean! :rose: That's exactly what I was referring to. Isn't Brown described as having almost the exact same features (even the red hair)? I'm in lecture so don't have my books available at the moment or I'd look it up myself ><

always welcome, Synyster! I remember always thinking (not guessing, but kinda knowing) that it was Brown; there must be something in the text that either explicitly says so, or maybe hints at it very clearly. I'll look for it later, if you don't find it first.

Canada
04-01-2010, 11:48 AM
I flipped through my Gunslinger real quick and found the (brief) description of Brown. I thought I'd put these "side-by-side" to see if a link is definitive.

Descriptors marked with Italics.

From Gunslinger:

The dweller, a surprisingly young man with a wild shock of strawberry hair that reached almost to his waist, was weeding a scrawny stand of corn with zealous abandon. The mule let out a wheezing grunt and the dweller looked up, glaring blue eyes coming target-center on the gunslinger in a moment.

And then a bit down from that (still in Gunslinger):

The little of his face visible between beard and hair seemed unmarked by the rot, and his eyes, while a bit wild, seemed sane.

------------------------

And then from Wizard:

Nothing was clear to Susan until she saw the man with the long red hair and the straw hat which did not quite obscure his lamb-slaughterer's eyes; the man with the cornshucks in his hands.

In my personal opinion, the two men are similar, yes, but not the same. Firstly, the man is described as being young. "Shockingly" so, I might add. But if he was living in Mejis at the time of WAG, he would be much older by the time Gunslinger rolls around. Not an old man persay, but in his 40s or 50s, most likely. Definitely not young.

Also, and this may be entirely opinion, Brown is described as having "strawberry" hair. Now it may be that being out in the sun so much would have faded red hair to strawberry, but generally it's a much lighter (or darker, sometimes) color than red and is distinguishable as a different hue.

Also, Brown is not described as having "Lamb-slaughterers eyes" (even though I concede that I thought he was described as having such, to be honest. However I couldn't find this in the text of Gunslinger.)
and while Brown's eyes are wild, they are not lamb-slaughtering wild, apparently.

And lastly, perhaps the most important reason. Roland doesn't recognize him. Remember, Roland used the grapefruit after susan died, to see the events which had led to her death, therefore he saw this man, and didn't recognize him years later in the Mohaine, and just like he remembered Sheb, he would've remembered him. Plus, when Roland mentions sheb and Mejis, there's no sign of recognition from brown at the mention of the names.

The only possible way they could be linked is if he was indeed the MIB, since Roland was suspicious of Brown almost the entire time, and thought he might be a glammer. If this is true, then yes, they are linked. However, I think it's merely just a case of two similar-looking people in a series of books. It happens. Sometimes things ARE just a simple coincidence, and not Ka.:P

woodpryan
04-01-2010, 12:31 PM
yeah, i didn't look at it that way. all I remembered from Brown's description was the long, red ("strawberry") hair. But yes, that makes sense. Anyway, the biggest question I have for you all is whether or not you think Roland could have either gone on to the beach without having met the man in black (with jake) or if he could have waited "after the boy had a growth of years", confronted and killed the man in black ("Cast him aside like a cheap wind up toy") and still have drawn his three.

Canada
04-01-2010, 02:24 PM
I think he could've waited until Jake had grown a little bit and became a full gunslinger. He was going east of the mountains anyways, he probably intuited that was the way to the tower, and he would've come across the beach just by virtue of going east. The only place where he might've gotten stuck was with the drawing. But then again, the oracle told him about the three, didn't it? He might have gotten the connection, and drawn them. He might not have. So, to sum up, he could've done it, but it would've been more difficult.

Qazeleus
06-01-2010, 06:46 AM
Hi

I have known of The Dark Tower series for years now actually, but I had always been more interested in Stephen King's Horror writing as opposed to the 'Fantasy' stuff which I always assumed The Dark Tower was.

Anyway, having always been a big fan of the TV series Lost, and hearing that The Dark Tower served as inspiration in many ways for Lost and they feature some similarities, I decided to give the series a go, and I wasn't dissapointed.

Having just finished reading The Gunslinger, my opinion of it is that it is a superb book. I always hear of many people saying that The Gunslinger is the hardest Dark Tower book to read, and in some cases King's hardest book to read as it is one of the first that he wrote. It does take a few chapters to get going but once it does, it doesn't let up.

I'm going to be picking up The Drawing of the Three soon, I decided not to buy them all at once in case I didn't like The Gunslinger or I couldn't get into it but now I can't wait to read the next one. I think this is a series which I will definitely enjoy.

One quick question I have though, is the series completed now? As in, is it totally finished? As I read that King has another Dark Tower based book due out at some point, but I always hear people talking about the ending, not literally talking about what happens at the end but just referencing whether they liked the ending or not, which has led me to assume that the series has finished.

Anyway, I just thought I would share my thoughts considering I am new to the series and the forum itself.

Thanks.

DoctorDodge
06-01-2010, 06:54 AM
Hi there, Qazeleus! Glad to hear you've joined us fellow Tower junkies!

In answer to your question, yes, the series is essentially finished, but Stephen King has released details of a new novel set between two of the volumes in the series, with a working title of The Wind Through the Keyhole. Honestly, I don't know much about it, just that King has only confirmed that he plans to write it, so it won't be out for a long while yet.

disel24
06-01-2010, 04:22 PM
King has basically said he's going to write another book that will fill in some events in time within Roland's world. Roland will PROBABLY be in it and it will probably deal more with Roland's life before we meet him in Book I than anything else. So enjoy the series without worrying about something new coming in and making you scratch your head....too much :)

Randall Flagg
06-01-2010, 04:30 PM
Welcome to the site.
To begin with, I'll help by putting your post in the
Introduce yourself (http://www.thedarktower.org/palaver/showthread.php?t=67) thread. Take a tour and I'm sure you will find areas to your liking.

pathoftheturtle
06-02-2010, 12:50 PM
Hi

I have known of The Dark Tower series for years now actually, but I had always been more interested in Stephen King's Horror writing as opposed to the 'Fantasy' stuff which I always assumed The Dark Tower was.

Anyway, having always been a big fan of the TV series Lost, and hearing that The Dark Tower served as inspiration in many ways for Lost and they feature some similarities, I decided to give the series a go, and I wasn't dissapointed.

Having just finished reading The Gunslinger, my opinion of it is that it is a superb book. I always hear of many people saying that The Gunslinger is the hardest Dark Tower book to read, and in some cases King's hardest book to read as it is one of the first that he wrote. It does take a few chapters to get going but once it does, it doesn't let up.

I'm going to be picking up The Drawing of the Three soon, I decided not to buy them all at once in case I didn't like The Gunslinger or I couldn't get into it but now I can't wait to read the next one. I think this is a series which I will definitely enjoy.
...Yar, welcome to TDT fandom, and thanks for posting. This is quite lucid as a reaction. I'm pretty sure you'll like tDoTT lots. Godspeed, and don't forget to stay on guard against spoilers on threads like this. Nice to meet you. :)

John_and_Yoko
06-02-2010, 01:17 PM
I think I forgot this thread existed, sorry about that.... Welcome, Qazeleus, glad you enjoyed the first DT volume and hope you like the later ones better! :D



On another note, I made another thread on this topic here that can be deleted now, sorry.... :blush: http://www.thedarktower.org/palaver/showthread.php?t=10664



As we know, the subtitle of The Waste Lands is "Redemption," and "Redemption" is also in the four-word subtitle of The Dark Tower VII.

Obviously we know that the former redemption refers to Roland's relationship with Jake, and the latter to the fact that clearly Roland has redeemed himself somewhat by the end of the loop that we read about (call it "loop #99"), at least enough that he now has the Horn of Eld when he starts the next loop ("loop #100"), where he didn't before. This leads one to wonder if the two might be linked--if they're not identical they must at least have something to do with each other, surely.

Anyway, I wanted to take this a step further and into speculative territory--I don't even know if Stephen King himself has definitive answers either way. I'm specifically speculating on loops #98 (the one BEFORE the one we read about) and #100 (the one AFTER the one we read about) with regard to Roland's relationship with Jake.

Since Roland achieves "redemption" in The Waste Lands with regard to Jake, this suggests to me what might have happened in the loops before and after. Perhaps in loop #98 Roland abandoned Jake to his death in the mines and didn't allow himself to feel guilty enough about it (though that's not to say he felt NO guilt at all) to try to "undo" what he'd done. Hence in that loop, Jake never officially became part of the ka-tet at all, and later members never knew him personally. Hence why a new loop was needed.

That being the case, perhaps in loop #100 Roland did not abandon Jake to his death in the mines at all, and Jake survived throughout the loop to whatever end, in which case no redemption was needed as far as Jake was concerned when the ka-tet found the Path of the Beam. And that being the case, plus having the Horn of Eld, it might be that loop #100 would be his last, Roland's final "redemption."

Thoughts?