Black 13 and it's "final" location

[Wuducynn]

Do you feel that King was implying that Black 13's placement in the lock box under the Twin Towers caused the 9-11 attacks? Also, do you feel that it was destroyed in the attacks?
Thoughts?

[Storyslinger]

I think he was just trying to tie in a dark event with a dark object. On the note of whether or not it was destroyed, the balls we're fragile, but 13 had powerful magic. It could have escaped, but if it didn't, it was most certainly destroyed.

[MonteGss]

Maybe he was trying to say that the jihadists were actually of The White and crashed those planes to try to destroy Black 13....? :unsure:

No, I really don't believe that.

I think he was probably trying to make the connection that evil draws more evil and in that sense Black 13 was a contributor to the Towers falling.

[obscurejude]

What about the posters in the New York/ Fedic tunnel. Does that mean that people went to see the towers fall before Black 13 was placed underneath? In this sense, it was just coincidence, mayhap a fitting one, but leaves little causation to Black 13.

[MonteGss]

Damn, that is a good point jude. I forgot about those posters advertising their destruction. Then again, nobody knew Black 13 was there so they could advertise it anyway....not knowing they were destroying something evil like them. :)

[Wuducynn]

That was a good question. My point of view on that is, that the Great Old Ones were viewing various time flows back in their heyday so there is no "before or after" for them, they just chose which event to go see and did so.

[obscurejude]

So, what comes first, the poster or Black 13? I'm going to be thinking about this all day. I got the feeling that the posters were very old, and people witnessed 9/11 quite a few times. Another question, how could events in the Keystone world be witnessed before they transpired- with the whole "time only moves forward" thing.

[MonteGss]

I agree with that, CK. :thumbsup:

[obscurejude]

CK, very interesting. I posted before I read that. I still have a few issues, see above.

[Wuducynn]

with the whole "time only moves forward" thing.

First, you want to remember that the "Time only moves forward in the Keystone Rose world" theory is just that, a theory. It may be true and it may not be.

[obscurejude]

Okay, care to elaborate sir? Why is it only a theory, and if it is only a theory, DT7why is death permanent as in the case of Jake?

[Wuducynn]

Okay, care to elaborate sir? Why is it only a theory, and if it is only a theory, why is death permanent as in the case of Jake?

How was it proven as a fact? Where do we see that Jake's death was permanent?

[obscurejude]

I just read the section last night, and that's what the narrator says,

"I won't move." Every word still clear, still sure. But now Roland could see blood also darkening the bottom of Jake's shirt and the crotch of his jeans, blooming there like roses. Once before he died and had come back. But not from this world. In this one, death was always for keeps." DTVII Hardcover 453-454

Is this proof enough?

[Wuducynn]

I just read the section last night, and that's what the narrator says,

"I won't move." Every word still clear, still sure. But now Roland could see blood also darkening the bottom of Jake's shirt and the crotch of his jeans, blooming there like roses. Once before he died and had come back. But not from this world. In this one, death was always for keeps." DTVII Hardcover 453-454

Is this proof enough?

That narration is coming from Roland's perspective, his belief.

[obscurejude]

CK, I usually have no problem following you, but I'm really lost. Is there a thread or something where the "theory" has been discussed?

[Jean]

fully agree with Matthew here. It's like ka. We accept that it exists within the context of the novel only because Roland or someone else believes so. It's a peculiar case of readers' naiveté. Much the same way we could believe that whippoorwill augured death because Tom Saywer thinks so. There is a context of described beliefs, and a context of described reality; sometimes they are hard to differ (sometimes hardly possible), especially when the reality described is a world that has moved on, and all cultural contexts are confused.

[obscurejude]

What about the Tet's whole preoccupation with getting to the Keystone world before King is killed? Which aspect is "peculiar" Jean. I'd just like to follow you a little better, I understand what you are saying in terms of literary prose, but I'm not sure if I understand how it specifically applies here. Do you kennit?

[Jean]

Yes. I don't even know whether or not they were right in believing that time went only one way there, and Jake had died forever, and all that - but along with Matthew I don't think we have enough conclusive proof. My main point was that TDT is complex enough for us to have to [at least try to] discriminate between the reality (as described there) from the lore, mythology, superstitions, and false beliefs (as described there).

[Letti]

Hey fellas, try to be a bit more careful with the spoilers, please. It's not a spoiler thread but I have seen them everywhere.

[jayson]

How was it proven as a fact? Where do we see that Jake's death was permanent?

especially if you believe the Jake at the end is still the same Jake, which has never been ruled out.

i agree with you and jean. like i've said many times before, i think the reader can often confuse what the characters [especially Roland] believe to be the metaphysical "rules" of the world with the way things actually work. we never received any info about time only going one way from anyone more authoritative than a character, or the narrator on a character's thoughts. they took it as a hard and fast rule, but that doesn't make it true.

however if it is true that time only goes fwd in that world, there are some issues which would be confusing, if not contradictory.

[obscurejude]

I'm really surprised that I never thought about this particularly issue in this light. Thank you Jean, for the suggestions.

So what makes the "keystone" world keystone?

[jayson]

So what makes the "keystone" world keystone?

Stephen King lives there? maybe he falsely believes his own world to be the real one. maybe it's an existentialist tale. well, to me they all are, but you know what i mean.

[obscurejude]

There's a passing comment that is bothersome to me in DT VII, "this is the only world which anything matters, at least in some significant way" I guess its just more reader naivete, but this is really bothering me. Its the difference between co-op city and Brooklyn. This is empirical evidence (at least within the tale). Clear disparity between realities.

Sorry to derail the conversation Mathew. Do I need to start another thread?

[Daghain]

I actually thought it was really clever of King to leave Black Thirteen in the Twin Towers. I took it to mean they would be destroyed when the towers came down.

And jude, that would probably be a really good thread to start. :)

[obscurejude]

Be on the lookout for a new thread.

[Wuducynn]

I actually thought it was really clever of King to leave Black Thirteen in the Twin Towers. I took it to mean they would be destroyed when the towers came down.


So did, as far as thinking it clever of King. But I've got to wonder if the idea was that Black 13 would be destroyed or that Black 13's presence under the Twin Towers would cause 9-11...or both?

[obscurejude]

I wonder the same thing CK and for that reason I didn't really appreciate it. It is definitely presented like a very pronounced statement, yet no one can pick up what King is laying down- at least in this regard.

[Wuducynn]

I wonder the same thing CK and for that reason I didn't really appreciate it. It is definitely presented like a very pronounced statement, yet no one can pick up what King is laying down- at least in this regard.

Why can't you appreciate it? Its a mystery, one of many in the series. Just something to wonder about.

[obscurejude]

I don't like things that are presented heavily with no defined action in mind. That's my philosophy of literature- but that's not to say that I don't appreciate it at all. Its like the Matrix sequels- they are presented in a way which makes you think everything is cryptic, but understandable if you expend the effort. However, that isn't the case, and I don't appreciate expending the effort when the end result is just greater confusion. I'm not saying this is the case with the DT generally, but in this case, I think it might be. Notice the first person pronouns- I am not speaking definitively.

[Wuducynn]

So you don't appreciate anything that doesn't have an immediate, presentable reason behind it happening or possibly happening? The Dark Tower series must be rough for you to read. :lol:

[obscurejude]

Damnit CK, you know that isn't necessarily the case. But you also know from my other posts that I get a little frustrated. I was also using "action" in the Aristotelian sense i.e. praxis - a defined moral impression.

[Wuducynn]

Okey dokey

[Wuducynn]

Damnit CK, you know that isn't necessarily the case. But you also know from my other posts that I get a little frustrated. I was also using "action" in the Aristotelian sense i.e. praxis - a defined moral impression.

You didn't knock your monitor off the desk while you were making this post, I hope?

[obscurejude]

:lol:

[Brainslinger]

So, what comes first, the poster or Black 13? I'm going to be thinking about this all day. I got the feeling that the posters were very old, and people witnessed 9/11 quite a few times. Another question, how could events in the Keystone world be witnessed before they transpired- with the whole "time only moves forward" thing.

Some of this stuff deals with the last book, so I'll spoiler tag it...-

Even if we assume that the characters are right in their belief that time only goes forward in the Keystone world, that doesn't mean that the great old ones could not witness the events of 9/11.

Why?

Well, why should we assume the events of 9/11 only happened in the Keystone world? Remember there are many worlds, very close together with very little differences between them. The Dixie pig entrance that Jake and Susannah traveled through was in the Keystone world, it's true, but if I remember correctly there was a whole complex of tunnels and doors in the dogan the other side, and I don't think they all connected to Keystone world. In fact, I imagine the majority of them probably didn't.

Back to the topic, I don't think Black 13 caused the 9/11 events. It was ka's way of ensuring it was destroyed though. Even if we go consider the idea that Black 13 influenced the minds of the terrorists (something that makes me uneasy, those scum were responsible for their own actions),

a) I'm not sure Black 13 would want to cause it's own destruction... unless it's a suggestion that it was setting itself free? Sure you could argue, it's chaotic and evil and that is by nature self-destructive, especially if it got to cause more deaths and chaos in it's destruction... but I'm not convinced. I think the nature of the Wizard's Rainbow is to survive and roll to new people to influence in turn.

b) When you consider that the terrorist attacks were likely planned miles away and well in advance, I think it would be beyond Black 13s influence anyway. Much of the story seemed to suggest that Black 13 needs to be in a relatively close proximity to influence a person.

The team were a few miles from The Callas when it rolled the ka-tet todash (I'm assuming it's ok to leave the spoilers tags out here, since you should have read Wolves before coming to this book anyway.) and in the instances it affected people directly (like Eddie in the cave and Jake and Callahan in this book) they were right in the same room when they were affected.

[Wuducynn]

Back to the topic, I don't think Black 13 caused the 9/11 events. It was ka's way of ensuring it was destroyed though. Even if we go consider the idea that Black 13 influenced the minds of the terrorists (something that makes me uneasy, those scum were responsible for their own actions),

a) I'm not sure Black 13 would want to cause it's own destruction... unless it's a suggestion that it was setting itself free? Sure you could argue, it's chaotic and evil and that is by nature self-destructive, especially if it got to cause more deaths and chaos in it's destruction... but I'm not convinced. I think the nature of the Wizard's Rainbow is to survive and roll to new people to influence in turn.

b) When you consider that the terrorist attacks were likely planned miles away and well in advance, I think it would be beyond Black 13s influence anyway. Much of the story seemed to suggest that Black 13 needs to be in a relatively close proximity to influence a person.

The team were a few miles from The Callas when it rolled the ka-tet todash (I'm assuming it's ok to leave the spoilers tags out here, since you should have read Wolves before coming to this book anyway.) and in the instances it affected people directly (like Eddie in the cave and Jake and Callahan in this book) they were right in the same room when they were affected.

I'm with ya Brainster. I don't think Black Thirteen tried to influence the terrorists into killing it. Doesn't make sense. I don't agree that the terrorists would be beyond its influence though.
In Wolves and SOS I didn't see anything saying that you HAD to be in some proximity to Black Thirteen for it to effect you. Anyway, thats really neither here nor there as the saying goes.
Maybe it knew it couldn't be destroyed by the Towers falling and it drawing the terrorists to the Towers was a way to wreak havoc and to have it go into hiding until it wants to be found again?
As far as the terrorists making their own choices, I don't think Black Thirteen influencing them cancels that fact out. Remember, Black Thirteen is known to use folks best intentions to get what it wants and the terrorists obviously thought they were doing good.

[Brainslinger]

Maybe it knew it couldn't be destroyed by the Towers falling and it drawing the terrorists to the Towers was a way to wreak havoc and to have it go into hiding until it wants to be found again?

Possibly. I don't really buy it though, it just seems to me that it was set up by King/ka to be the destruction of the glass... although I agree the relevant passages (not in front of me right now) could be interpreted differently.

Also the very fact that Black 13 was placed under 'towers' suggests that it is tied into ka, or if you like the will of the Dark Tower/Gan (which I think is the same thing) that Black 13 was destroyed. I.e. quite literally the crushing power of a tower... order coming down on chaos, metaphorically speaking.

Something that just popped into my head as I was writing the previous passage. Apologies if someone already brought that up earlier in the thread.

Not that Gan/the Tower/ka is necessarily responsible for the death of so many innocents, (except in the sense that all that happens is ka...) merely that it used those events to bring about it's will. If that makes sense.

[Wuducynn]

Possibly. I don't really buy it though, it just seems to me that it was set up by King/ka to be the destruction of the glass... although I agree the relevant passages (not in front of me right now) could be interpreted differently.

Yeah, I don't really buy my idea either, who knows, I was just thinking out loud with that one.




Also the very fact that Black 13 was placed under 'towers' suggests that it is tied into ka, or if you like the will of the Dark Tower/Gan (which I think is the same thing) that Black 13 was destroyed. I.e. quite literally the crushing power of a tower... order coming down on chaos, metaphorically speaking.

I've never thought of that before. That is an interesting idea.



Something that just popped into my head as I was writing the previous passage. Apologies if someone already brought that up earlier in the thread.

Not that Gan/the Tower/ka is necessarily responsible for the death of so many innocents, (except in the sense that all that happens is ka...) merely that it used those events to bring about it's will. If that makes sense.
This is something I had thought of before...hmmmmmm

[BoogerSnax]

Obviously, the final location where it known to have been, was something only current events could have dictated.
Do you think it was meant to be seen as a dark force that actually drew evil to those buildings, and what do you think it's <13's> final outcome was?

[Savoury]

It might be possible, but I don't think it would draw evil to the towers. If it did, wouldn't that mean that it would potentially destroy itself? I'd rather like to think of it as ka (how lame that sometimes may be).

[BoogerSnax]

Not so much that it intentionally drew the evil, but that it's presnce made the evil manifest itself there.

And, as I believe that book 7 felt forced all the way through, it almost seems like an avenue King meant to explore, but got sidetracked as the story moved along.

[The Lady of Shadows]

i think black 13 is still there somewhere. underneath all that is left, that it got bulldozed under when the final cleanup came. god help the world if anything ever gets built there.

wonder if king will ever work black 13 into a story again. like have something being built there and have it be unearthed?

[Silvermoth]

I would imagine evil people would be attracted there just like good people are attracted to the rose.

and its final location? I must admit, sometimes I wonder if it survived somehow. If its just as cruel and wicked as it always was but in a new location. I guess the best place to find it would be to track where alot of evil is coming from and then start looking. Maybe it'll even turn up in a future SK novel?

[Brainslinger]

That's an interesting idea, but I think the whole point really was that it's ka/the Tower/Gan's way of ensuring the Glass's destruction.

Never say never though... (I think King will leave this one alone though.)

[Darkthoughts]

I've moved this thread from the DT7 book discussion section to here, as it's more relevant to SoS. I've also merged it with CK's thread that posed the same question ;)

[Whitey Appleseed]

Do you feel that King was implying that Black 13's placement in the lock box under the Twin Towers caused the 9-11 attacks? Also, do you feel that it was destroyed in the attacks?
Thoughts?

Reading SOS last night and I had to dig out a map of NYC. Never bothered before. Figured like he said, he took some liberties with the geography, something along those lines. (I guess the Dixie Pig, 61st and 2nd? 3rd? is like Bloomingdale's?) but I was curious about the geography--maybe because there's something about a black needle pointing at the sky...sorry, can't find the exact location--but that seemed like a description of what they want to place at the site, some kind of...needle...? shrug, dunno.

But to answer the question, no. The magic has gone out of the world and men have replaced their lack of faith with rational thought--funny how that scene with Mia and Susannah on the allure echoed the scene in Book I, Walter lecturing Roland on stuff, metaphysics I guess. Slap me if I'm wrong. Do it with feeling and win a Kewpie doll.
The towers fell because the magic is gone.

And yes, it was destroyed. We would have seen it on Geraldo if it was still around.

[pinkymcfatfat]

I have to admit, I was rather freaked out over the passage when I first read it.

More because I had been in and out of the WTC on numerous occasions then anything else.

You are right, Whitey. The geography is indeed off. Plus there never were any storage lockers in the WTC.

If Black 13 wasn't destroyed, there's a good chance it made it to a landfill in Jersey.

[pinkymcfatfat]

I forgot to mention...several times while in Manhatten I've spotted the tag of 'Bango Skank' on different locations. Next time I'm in the city, I'll grab some pics if I spot them.

[flaggwalkstheline]

I think he was probably trying to make the connection that evil draws more evil and in that sense Black 13 was a contributor to the Towers falling.

Yup
Just like the marsden house

though it does make me a little bit uneasy when an author connects one of their plot devices to real world tragedies, not that it wasnt clever but yeah...

[lordmerchant]

It just occured to me the other night, before Jake and father Callahan had their showdown in the dixie pig they stored black 13 away in a locker in the WTC (thats where I seem to remember the locker being anyway) Later in the series when roland travelled to new yorks future to meet with the leaders of the tet corporation I expected this to be brought up but it wasnt, I cant remember what the year was at this point (99?) Are we to assume that the tet corporation had not discovered black thirteen, or it ended up in the hands of NC posotronics...Or did the presence of black thirteen in the WTC have something to do with 9/11? :orely:

[flaggwalkstheline]

I don't know if in that reality black thirteen had an influence on 9/11
though it would fit the idea that an evil house attracts evil men:orely:
but I did assume that it was destroyed when the towers fell

[Seneschal]

.Or did the presence of black thirteen in the WTC have something to do with 9/11? :orely:

i never even questioned this inference, truth be told.

[lordmerchant]

@Seneschal - that was my initial thought too, but then again the pieces of maerlyns rainbow do have a tendency to "find new owners" and with black thirteen being the most powerful of the pieces o' rainbow you have to wonder if it be destroyed so easily. Anybody else have any thoughts?

[Brainslinger]

You have a point, but I don't think King would have had the glass stored in the two towers if he hadn't intended for it to be destroyed, or at least buried for a long while...

The rainbow might find new owners, but I think they're very patient as to when this happens. They can sit idle for years, even centuries before they roll into some poor blighter's path (so to speak). And I'm not sure prophesy was amongst Black 13's powers. (Some of the orbs do have that power though, but Black 13 is all about the todash I think.)

[Seneschal]

You have a point, but I don't think King would have had the glass stored in the two towers if he hadn't intended for it to be destroyed, or at least buried for a long while...

The rainbow might find new owners, but I think they're very patient as to when this happens. They can sit idle for years, even centuries before they roll into some poor blighter's path (so to speak). And I'm not sure prophesy was amongst Black 13's powers. (Some of the orbs do have that power though, but Black 13 is all about the todash I think.)

i agree on all accounts. like i said, i never even thought to question these points either. which of course doesn't mean i am right, but i have a good inclination to believe many readers don't really question it. the way it was presented in the story seemed to be in a "take this at face value" sort of fashion.

[pathoftheturtle]

@Seneschal - that was my initial thought too, but then again the pieces of maerlyns rainbow do have a tendency to "find new owners" and with black thirteen being the most powerful of the pieces o' rainbow you have to wonder if it be destroyed so easily. Anybody else have any thoughts?Are you kidding?

[Jean]

this thread is soon going to be merged with that one (http://www.thedarktower.org/palaver/showthread.php?t=6072)

[Avin_River]

Ahhh. Well in my mind here my answers. SK spent many years writing about the tower and its imminant fall. To see the Towers fall must have been disturbing on a singular level to him His decision of whether or not to mention it must have been difficult and uncomfortable. BTW ib W&G he describes how the tower would fall and the WTC fell just as he described it. I always assumed that the WTC towers fell in earths other than the keystone earth. The door probably led to the events of 9/11 where the folks of New York drank Noz-a-La and drove the Takuro Spirit. As far as the right or wrong of it? Well I guess he felt it eas a poetic way of destroying 13, acknowledging the WTC, and doing so as briefly as possible to avoid chances of hurting anyone with his words.

Take Care

Avin

[Avin_River]

Ahhh. Well in my mind here my answers. SK spent many years writing about the tower and its imminant fall. To see the WTC Towers fall must have been disturbing on a singular level to him. His decision of whether or not to mention it must have been difficult and uncomfortable. BTW in W&G he describes how the tower would fall and the WTC fell just as he described it not to mention the eerie death of the villain in Insomnia. I always assumed that the WTC towers fell in earths other than the keystone earth. The door probably led to the events of 9/11 where the folks of New York drank Noz-a-La and drove the Takuro Spirit. As far as the right or wrong of it? Well I guess he felt it was a poetic way of destroying 13, acknowledging the WTC Towers falling, and doing so as briefly as possible to avoid chances of hurting anyone with his words.

Take Care

Avin

[Avin_River]

Wow I feel a little icky having discussed that. I have been following the WTC Memorial Project for years now and I try to help when I can since this is a non-proft trying to raise all the funds for the memorial privately. It will honor all those killed in the WTC complex passengers on all four flights those at the pentagon and those who died in the 1993 bombing. It is set in the voids footprints of the two towers and in the surrounding area. It will have a walkthrough memorial and a museum as well as private seperate areas for greing families. Give or even just vote for the memorial torecieve a grant. Visit http://www.national911memorial.org. Thanks. :rose:9/11:rose:

[SolomonsGal]

i think black 13 is still there somewhere. underneath all that is left, that it got bulldozed under when the final cleanup came. god help the world if anything ever gets built there.



I completely agree!

What is the timeline of the story from book 1-7? It seems shorter than a year, but maybe it's longer? If so, if Roland is repeating his life journey since the following Walter across the dessert , Black 13 would survive 9/11/11, continuing to spread darkness throughout Roland's life. Keeping his Hell alive.

If the timeline is less than 3 years, then I don't know... Maybe Roland didn't get it right this time around- again! And he has to repeat it again, and again...

All I know, is I think that Black 13 survives.

I don't think the terrorists were influenced by Black 13. Instead I think its just one of the coincidences of Ka. Because why not?

[Sai Sheb]

OK, stay with me. There is only one 13 do even though we could walk through a door in the Dixie or fedic to watch the Towers fall, 13 still ain't under there because it was in keystone which means time does run one way otherwise (if it draws evil) Walter, RF, Crimson King, whoever, would be drawn back to 'rescue' it. As far as we know that never happened. B13 Drew itself to Callahan, and Roland so it think it draws itself to good people,not bad, to make them do bad with good intentions!!! Also if the 'movie' is suggesting a second time around then even keystone is getting a reset!

[Cland1931]

i think the reader can often confuse what the characters [especially Roland] believe to be the metaphysical "rules" of the world with the way things actually work. we never received any info about time only going one way from anyone more authoritative than a character, or the narrator on a character's thoughts. they took it as a hard and fast rule, but that doesn't make it true.

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[thu2921996]

I think he was probably trying to make the connection that evil draws more evil and in that sense Black 13 was a contributor to the Towers falling.