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mungojerrie
11-10-2008, 07:56 AM
Okay, i put off reading this story for a long time because i was so busy reading all of the DT books and their cousins, and now i'm almost wishing i had never read it. don't get me wrong, it was a great story, fun and scary, but there was this one part that i'm having a problem with. when little sam gets raped. i'm not even sure why but this offended me in a way that stephen king has never done before. did this bother anyone else?

jhanic
11-10-2008, 11:29 AM
I think that the sexual abuse of a child offends ALL "right-thinking" people. I also was upset by this, but I saw it as an integral part of the story--that's what made Sam who he was and what caused his vulnerability. The fact that you were "offended in a way Stephen King has never done before" testifies to his ability to "get" to the reader.

John

The Lady of Shadows
11-10-2008, 06:24 PM
i hate this story. i hate this story so much. i hate this story on every single solitary level of the tower. there is nothing in this story that i like. i don't even read four past midnight anymore because this story is in the book. i have the other stories on audiobook and listen to them but not this one.

i don't read stories about this subject and i was so wounded by what happened to sam. so very wounded. . . .

John_and_Yoko
11-10-2008, 06:37 PM
i hate this story. i hate this story so much. i hate this story on every single solitary level of the tower. there is nothing in this story that i like. i don't even read four past midnight anymore because this story is in the book. i have the other stories on audiobook and listen to them but not this one.

i don't read stories about this subject and i was so wounded by what happened to sam. so very wounded. . . .

Whoa.

Okay...I haven't read the story myself, but isn't that kind of an extreme reaction, to not read the whole book because of one story you didn't like?

If I'd used that logic I would have stopped reading ANYTHING by Stephen King after familiarizing myself with Thinner, because I really didn't like that....

Darkthoughts
11-11-2008, 03:31 AM
I didn't like reading that scene, I knew it was coming, but it was still difficult to read. But, I don't really think any subject should be taboo in literature - these things happen, in real life, and while I don't agree with people sensationalising it I also don't agree with people ignoring it - both things are equally harmful.

However, I didn't really think it was necessary to the story to go to such an extreme to explain why adult Sam was so traumatised. Even abuse that didn't escalate into rape would have been enough.

Woofer
11-11-2008, 03:41 AM
i hate this story. i hate this story so much. i hate this story on every single solitary level of the tower. there is nothing in this story that i like. i don't even read four past midnight anymore because this story is in the book. i have the other stories on audiobook and listen to them but not this one.

i don't read stories about this subject and i was so wounded by what happened to sam. so very wounded. . . .

Whoa.

Okay...I haven't read the story myself, but isn't that kind of an extreme reaction, to not read the whole book because of one story you didn't like?

If I'd used that logic I would have stopped reading ANYTHING by Stephen King after familiarizing myself with Thinner, because I really didn't like that....

I know someone who completely stopped reading King after reading The Library Policeman.

lophophoras
11-11-2008, 04:39 AM
Okay, i put off reading this story for a long time because i was so busy reading all of the DT books and their cousins, and now i'm almost wishing i had never read it. don't get me wrong, it was a great story, fun and scary, but there was this one part that i'm having a problem with. when little sam gets raped. i'm not even sure why but this offended me in a way that stephen king has never done before. did this bother anyone else?

It was very disturbing. Isn't that what SK was trying to do? Disturb the reader so that they would understand what the character was going through?

IMO, the fact that we as readers found it disgusting and disturbing proves that SK did his job well.

mungojerrie
11-11-2008, 10:11 AM
wow, i'm a little relieved to find i wasn't the only one to have a problem with it. i agree that nothing should be off limits in writing, what one finds offensive another finds solace. i just had to speak up simply because i have been reading king since i was a teen and i have endured every abuse and horrible death, namely of children, with a sense that in it all there was a purpose. when roland let jake fall i knew that even though i wanted to scream, this was the only way to show how roland would sacrifice anyone or anything to get to the tower. in other words, i can take a death, but this was so much more. i think the worst part was that it was told through the eyes of sam.

Woofer
11-11-2008, 10:57 AM
Not at all, mungojerrie (Meow?).

BTW, might want to put spoiler tags around that DT spoiler.

John_and_Yoko
11-11-2008, 12:00 PM
I didn't like reading that scene, I knew it was coming, but it was still difficult to read. But, I don't really think any subject should be taboo in literature - these things happen, in real life, and while I don't agree with people sensationalising it I also don't agree with people ignoring it - both things are equally harmful.

Josiah Bartlett on The West Wing said something similar to that, which I liked (I usually like what he says and don't know why I haven't gotten into that series religiously).

Someone was complaining to him about this director's films that had "gratuitous" violence and sex, and this guy believed that it was contributing to the decay of American mores by sensationalizing such, and inspiring real people to emulate the characters in the films.

Bartlett said the real problem with the films wasn't that they had gratuitous violence and sex, but because the films themselves were rotten--he pointed out that there can be good-quality films that nevertheless have violence and/or sex to that degree, but this director's films stunk. But people kept going to see them anyway BECAUSE of the violence and sex they had to offer (in other words, that kind of sensationalism is what was making the films money), and THAT was the real issue that needed to be addressed.



Anyway, back on topic.... :blush:

@Woofer: Well, some people are like that. I'm glad I'm letting less and less fiction fare offend me, though, because I would have missed out on a LOT of greatness if I only focused on King's profanity, or sexual references (which sometimes don't even seem to merit being present), to say nothing of the violence in a lot of his works (and the meanness of some of the characters)....

Those things used to bother me (and the meanness still does), but I'm able to make myself understand that it's part of the story he wants to tell, and so am able to plow through it. I don't like EVERYTHING he's written, and I don't have to. But I'm glad I haven't missed out on the many works of his that I DO like.

Darkthoughts
11-11-2008, 12:02 PM
Hmmm, I never watched The West Wing...I may have to give it a try :thumbsup:
/off topic replyishness :D

Woofer
11-11-2008, 12:28 PM
J and Y (and others), I understand your points. I, personally, have no trouble with this particular work, but I do not dismiss anyone who does. I had many an earnest conversation with my friend regarding why that scene was critical to the novel, and he, in turn, explained why it ruined King for him. We must all try to remember that taste is individual and each of us brings a different background to the books we read. It is presumptuous of us to assume that because something did not affect us that strongly that no one else should be affected either.

Darkthoughts
11-11-2008, 12:31 PM
I didn't have a problem with it in that I couldn't read it again, infact it was my favourite story from the collection. I just didn't see why it was necessary for Sam to be raped to make the point - he was already utterly traumatised through the pursuit alone.

John_and_Yoko
11-11-2008, 01:01 PM
J and Y (and others), I understand your points. I, personally, have no trouble with this particular work, but I do not dismiss anyone who does. I had many an earnest conversation with my friend regarding why that scene was critical to the novel, and he, in turn, explained why it ruined King for him. We must all try to remember that taste is individual and each of us brings a different background to the books we read. It is presumptuous of us to assume that because something did not affect us that strongly that no one else should be affected either.

I'm not dismissing anyone either, and I've probably done likewise for other authors (I can't say for sure because I don't know what I'm missing). Everyone likes what they like.

I'm just saying that, since I know better, I personally (can't tell others what to do) would give it a try once, at least. If I don't like it then that's fine, but it has happened in the past that I've ended up liking something I didn't think I would.

Anyway, I don't think that what happened with this particular person has happened with me--there was a time I was really into Neil Simon plays, for example, and some of the scripts he wrote I HATED, but it didn't turn me off to Neil Simon himself for good. And Stephen King is such an eclectic writer that it just seems a shame to turn off him because of one thing he wrote (as I said before, I was turned off him from Thinner, and am glad I was turned on to him again).

Again, not trying to tell anyone else what to do, or to judge, I just think it's kind of a shame....

Brice
11-11-2008, 01:15 PM
I do also. I read the book when it first came out and have read it many times since. I saw nothing in it that was not necessary to the story. THough I think that if the story shocks or elicits any reaction other than boredom in you King would be greatly pleased.

John_and_Yoko
11-11-2008, 01:16 PM
I do also. I read the book when it first came out and have read it many times since. I saw nothing in it that was not necessary to the story. THough I think that if the story shocks or elicits any reaction other than boredom in you King would be greatly pleased.

Couldn't have said it better.

You may like it, you may hate it--but to be boring is the cardinal sin.

Brice
11-11-2008, 01:19 PM
Precisely! :)

Woofer
11-11-2008, 04:40 PM
Oh he read it all the way through. He just made a decision not to read King anymore after reading that story. It's not a decision I agree with, but I respect it because it is his choice.

The Lady of Shadows
11-11-2008, 05:11 PM
i hate this story. i hate this story so much. i hate this story on every single solitary level of the tower. there is nothing in this story that i like. i don't even read four past midnight anymore because this story is in the book. i have the other stories on audiobook and listen to them but not this one.

i don't read stories about this subject and i was so wounded by what happened to sam. so very wounded. . . .

Whoa.

Okay...I haven't read the story myself, but isn't that kind of an extreme reaction, to not read the whole book because of one story you didn't like?

If I'd used that logic I would have stopped reading ANYTHING by Stephen King after familiarizing myself with Thinner, because I really didn't like that....


i think it's because of my background. i had read the sun dog first (i tend to read his short stories and novellas out of order, and i thought - oooooo a doggie story :lol: ) and so the library policeman was actually the last story for me. and yes, king probably handled it brilliantly but i couldn't finish the story because once i got to that point that was it for me. it was over and i had nightmares for weeks.

i've got the langoliers and secret window, secret garden on audio. now if the sun dog would just get released on audio i'd have everything from that book. but no, i can't pick it up. even that makes me shake. but it's still a first edition, and it's still in my collection.

Woofer
11-11-2008, 05:15 PM
i hate this story. i hate this story so much. i hate this story on every single solitary level of the tower. there is nothing in this story that i like. i don't even read four past midnight anymore because this story is in the book. i have the other stories on audiobook and listen to them but not this one.

i don't read stories about this subject and i was so wounded by what happened to sam. so very wounded. . . .

Whoa.

Okay...I haven't read the story myself, but isn't that kind of an extreme reaction, to not read the whole book because of one story you didn't like?

If I'd used that logic I would have stopped reading ANYTHING by Stephen King after familiarizing myself with Thinner, because I really didn't like that....


i think it's because of my background. i had read the sun dog first (i tend to read his short stories and novellas out of order, and i thought - oooooo a doggie story :lol: ) and so the library policeman was actually the last story for me. and yes, king probably handled it brilliantly but i couldn't finish the story because once i got to that point that was it for me. it was over and i had nightmares for weeks.

i've got the langoliers and secret window, secret garden on audio. now if the sun dog would just get released on audio i'd have everything from that book. but no, i can't pick it up. even that makes me shake. but it's still a first edition, and it's still in my collection.

:huglove::rose::couple:

The Lady of Shadows
11-11-2008, 05:27 PM
:couple:

flaggwalkstheline
11-11-2008, 06:45 PM
i think if a story can offend u on an intellectual level that means its well written, i think that apt pupil is a far more offensive and subtle story about the corruption of a child than the library policeman

Woofer
11-11-2008, 07:53 PM
i think if a story can offend u on an intellectual level that means its well written, i think that apt pupil is a far more offensive and subtle story about the corruption of a child than the library policeman

There is really no comparison between The Library Policeman and The Apt Pupil. (Spoilers for The Apt Pupil) The former has a scene of child sexual assault; the latter is an examination of the evolution of a sadist. I don't think that Todd Bowden was corrupted so much as he embraced a part of himself that most people would keep hidden. Todd approached Dussander not vice versa, and although he found Dussander's killing of cats and bums repulsive, he was drawn to do the same. A story of corruption, yes, but not from any outside influence.

And while I understand what you are saying about "if a story can offend you on an intellectual level...", that is only true if it is a good story. There's plenty of bad porn out there offending people left and right, but that doesn't make any of it well written.

flaggwalkstheline
11-11-2008, 08:11 PM
no i mean if the ideas a story shows are what you find offensive, not the content, then that means its well written, and i think that apt pupil is about outside corruption, yeah todd approached dussander but it was with a sense of misplaced curiosity, dussander made a monster out of todd so that he could have someone he could relate to, that to me is outside corruption

Woofer
11-12-2008, 03:29 AM
Hrm, again there are plenty of stories with offensive ideas, and the stories just plain suck. It's the well written ones that get our attention precisely because they are well written, not because their ideas are offensive or controversial (The Da Vinci Code aside).

I think we'll have to disagree on The Apt Pupil. IMO Dussander no more corrupted Todd than Stephen King's books make people kill. Todd was wired a little differently to begin with and as he embraced that, he sought out sources of information to satisfy his curiosity. The newspapers and books he read about Nazi Germany before seeking Dussander didn't corrupt him, and talking to Dussander didn't corrupt him. Todd had a shadow inside all along, and he simply chose to allow that dark part of him to grow and flourish.

Brice
11-12-2008, 05:34 AM
Yeah, I think Todd was corrupt to begin with. I think Dussander just took him to places he might not have gone as quickly on his own. All Dusssander really did was exploit the evil he could readily see in Todd.

Again though, ultimately it's just a story. I've dealt with all kinds of abuse in real life. Still nothing is taboo for me IF I feel it's necessary to the story. In the case of The Library Policeman I felt it was. The only real wrong a book can have in it for me is bad boring writing. THAT is unforgiveable.

CRinVA
11-12-2008, 12:16 PM
i hate this story. i hate this story so much. i hate this story on every single solitary level of the tower. there is nothing in this story that i like. i don't even read four past midnight anymore because this story is in the book. i have the other stories on audiobook and listen to them but not this one.

i don't read stories about this subject and i was so wounded by what happened to sam. so very wounded. . . .

Whoa.

Okay...I haven't read the story myself, but isn't that kind of an extreme reaction, to not read the whole book because of one story you didn't like?

If I'd used that logic I would have stopped reading ANYTHING by Stephen King after familiarizing myself with Thinner, because I really didn't like that....


i think it's because of my background. i had read the sun dog first (i tend to read his short stories and novellas out of order, and i thought - oooooo a doggie story :lol: ) and so the library policeman was actually the last story for me. and yes, king probably handled it brilliantly but i couldn't finish the story because once i got to that point that was it for me. it was over and i had nightmares for weeks.

i've got the langoliers and secret window, secret garden on audio. now if the sun dog would just get released on audio i'd have everything from that book. but no, i can't pick it up. even that makes me shake. but it's still a first edition, and it's still in my collection.

Turtlesong,

If this story affected you in this manner then I recommend that you NEVER pick up Jack Ketchum's The Girl Next Door even if it sin you r"collection" - I have the Signed Limited with the Stephen King Intro - it was actually my first King Sig obtained back in the late 90's. The stuff i that story (based on a real story) should never happen! it's just so woring in so many ways!

jhanic
11-12-2008, 12:55 PM
Bob, you are SO right about that!

John

Brice
11-12-2008, 01:10 PM
I'd have to agree with that and restress the point that turtlesong doesn't want that book...even the s/l ...for free, if she's that determined to distance herself from that sort of thing. It is one of the few books in recent years that even shocked me a little.

The Lady of Shadows
11-12-2008, 02:52 PM
yeah, been there. twas a gift. the only book in my entire life i actually destroyed. i know, it's heresy to destroy the written word; but the person who gave it to me did it out of malicious intent and i literally threw up when. . .

well you know.

:nope: t/song will pass on all offers of this book. in fact, t/song will pass on all offers of four past midnight signed, limited, whatever. i'm sure there's some worthy out there who would appreciate one or the other. :)

mungojerrie
11-13-2008, 08:18 AM
okay, you guys have got me curious. what's this ketchum book about?

theBeamisHome
11-13-2008, 08:49 AM
ummm....

Jean
11-13-2008, 11:44 AM
okay, you guys have got me curious. what's this ketchum book about?
there must be something wrong with us, mungo... my prevailing emotion now is curiosity, too

Daghain
11-13-2008, 11:52 AM
Nope, that makes three of us.

Woofer
11-13-2008, 12:55 PM
The Girl Next Door (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Girl_Next_Door_(novel))

Darkthoughts
11-13-2008, 01:00 PM
Blimey!

Daghain
11-13-2008, 01:09 PM
I read the true story of this on crime library and it was really sick and sad. The synopsis of the book is tame in comparison.

Brice
11-13-2008, 02:06 PM
The book goes into quite a good deal of detail though. It is not for those who are easily disturbed...well, unless they like to be. :lol: It's a phenomenal book though.

t/s: Don't destroy anymore books...especially S/Ls. You can just forward those evil things to me. :lol:

stone, rose, unfound door
11-14-2008, 04:22 AM
This "Girl next door" story is horrible. But I don't think I'd feel the same as I did with "The library policeman". I never bought the collection because it really bothered me. I wouldn't go as far as turtlesong and destroy a book because I found it too horrible, but I'm not planning on buying "4 past midnight" at all because of this story.
It was a rather creepy story, but what I found worse was that the main character didn't even remember what had happened to him as a child almost until the end of the book. It made me want to throw up and to go back in time and not pick the book at my local library. I never even finished the collection because it had been way too much to bear for me. Sexual abuse always bothers me, especially when it is peformed by older men on children and particularly when there seems to be no reason to imagine that it could happen, which is the case in "the Library policeman". It wasn't right and it wasn't fair either that King told such a story.
I don't know if you've heard about what happened last Spring in Austria, but a man was on the news because he'd locked one of his daughters from the moment she turned 18 in a kind of bunker in his house and told no one to enter it. He said that she'd gone to join a sect so she left without telling anyone. In fact, he raped her over and over and she got 4 kids (if I remember well) out of it. She spent 13 years in there, not seeing anyoen apart from him when he came to have sex with her or feed her. That is the most horrible story I've ever heard and it's true. If that was made into a story, I have to admit I may go and destroy the book, however well written it may be.

Darkthoughts
11-14-2008, 05:20 AM
Someone already has written a book about it - I wouldn't mind if the proceeds were going to the woman and her children, but it's probably been written by a journalist.

I think she actually had 7 children, 2 were allowed to live in the house with the grandparents, one died after birth and the other 4 remained in the cellar with their mother and were very feral.

There's another very, very dreadful story of torture and abuse in the UK papers today about a 17 month old baby...that made me feel sick. I didn't read it, because I found that disturbing as it actually happened - although for some reason one of my colleagues insisted on telling me about it anyway.

Having grown up living on care campuses with a parent who is a social worker, I feel I'm more aware of the abuse that goes on in society than most perhaps - it hasn't de-sensitized me, but I feel differently reading about something that is completely fabricated (ie, the Library Policeman) than The Girl Next Door, which would disturb me more being based on something factual.

With Sam's ordeal in TLP, I didn't react to it in any way other than to think it wasn't necessary to go that far. I'm repeating myself here because I think my opinion may have been misunderstood - I didn't think it went too far in that it disturbed me (because it was completely fictional) it went too far in that I didn't think it was necessary to the plot for a rape to occur. I thought King described very well Sam's terror at being pursued alone, and it wouldn't have lessened Sam's predicament (as an adult that the flashback was trying to explain) if it had ended in a pursuit. To me the rape was something that didn't gel with the story, kinda like the group sex at the end of IT - I never understood why it would have been less powerful for Bev to have kissed them all, as it would have been a first kiss for all of them and just as monumental.

I think that's one fault of SK's stories sometimes, the plot twists sometimes go for quantity rather than quality.

stone, rose, unfound door
11-14-2008, 06:50 AM
Someone already has written a book about it - I wouldn't mind if the proceeds were going to the woman and her children, but it's probably been written by a journalist.

I think she actually had 7 children, 2 were allowed to live in the house with the grandparents, one died after birth and the other 4 remained in the cellar with their mother and were very feral.

There's another very, very dreadful story of torture and abuse in the UK papers today about a 17 month old baby...that made me feel sick. I didn't read it, because I found that disturbing as it actually happened - although for some reason one of my colleagues insisted on telling me about it anyway.

Having grown up living on care campuses with a parent who is a social worker, I feel I'm more aware of the abuse that goes on in society than most perhaps - it hasn't de-sensitized me, but I feel differently reading about something that is completely fabricated (ie, the Library Policeman) than The Girl Next Door, which would disturb me more being based on something factual.

With Sam's ordeal in TLP, I didn't react to it in any way other than to think it wasn't necessary to go that far. I'm repeating myself here because I think my opinion may have been misunderstood - I didn't think it went too far in that it disturbed me (because it was completely fictional) it went too far in that I didn't think it was necessary to the plot for a rape to occur. I thought King described very well Sam's terror at being pursued alone, and it wouldn't have lessened Sam's predicament (as an adult that the flashback was trying to explain) if it had ended in a pursuit. To me the rape was something that didn't gel with the story, kinda like the group sex at the end of IT - I never understood why it would have been less powerful for Bev to have kissed them all, as it would have been a first kiss for all of them and just as monumental.

I think that's one fault of SK's stories sometimes, the plot twists sometimes go for quantity rather than quality.

I see what you mean but I think that's a question of sensitivity to a particular subject that made me feel so bad after reading TLP. I didn't take into account the fact that it was not real. Thanks for correcting me, I didn't listen very carefully to that story because I found it too disturbing.
I never understood why the kids in IT didn't just kiss either and I think it's a good question to ask so go on and do it :)

Brice
11-14-2008, 07:24 AM
I think a large part of the point with these two scenes (the rape in TLP and the childhood orgy in It) was to bluntly shock you. As for why a kiss wouldn't work instead of the orgy...well, lots of kids kiss when they're quite young. Generally they don't (or didn't at that point in time) have sex. I think it was just to be impactful for the severity of the situation, to give power, and to bind them. Sex is usually considered more powerful than a kiss from a male pov (both King's and probably the characters in the book). Basically the scenes are supposed to smack you upside the fucking head....whether they succeed or not in that regard.

Edit: It's quite possible I'm not making my point clearly. I am high as a fuckin' kite on pain pills. :lol:

Jean
11-14-2008, 07:36 AM
I think a large part of the point with these two scenes (the rape in TLP and the childhood orgy in It) was to bluntly shock you.
I am inclined to think the same.

Matt
11-14-2008, 12:03 PM
was to bluntly shock you.

That's when they do it with a metal bat, right to the genitals. :lol:

theBeamisHome
11-14-2008, 12:30 PM
Nope, that makes three of us.

Four.... amazingly i haven't read TLP... and i read the Sun Dog, Langoliers and Secret Window.... i started reading it, but i didn't pull me in immediately or something idk... but i think i have Four Past Midnight with my collection at home.

Darkthoughts
11-15-2008, 08:40 AM
It's a brilliant story, you should give it another go!

mungojerrie
11-16-2008, 08:26 AM
yes, i do believe shock factor can be useful to a story, but i don't really think that's what he was going for in IT. this may just be a hint of my sick mind, but i found the idea of all of them losing their virginity to each other at one time sweet. as for the idea of a story not affecting me simply because it is fiction, well my brain just don't work that way. fiction is as real to my emotions and my heart than hard facts.

someone on here mentioned that it bothered them that sam didn't remember the assault until the dream, and i wonder why. repressed memories is not actually unheard of in king's work.

theBeamisHome
11-17-2008, 09:13 AM
i think i will. i'll have to rent the book from a library though. i don't want to buy it because i know i own the book already.. dammit i wish my sister had remembered to put my books in my trunk.

theBeamisHome
11-26-2008, 08:29 AM
I finally read it and while i had already read the spoiler here, i think i would have known what was going to happen to Sam anyway. King did a great job of putting the fear of the unknown into me and once he revealed it he showed that we did have reason to be afraid. It was a very good story and now i understand why people have always talked about how frightening it is. With that said, i think it was necessary, but it didn't make it hurt any less... My soul hurt after reading what that bastard did to Sam (i say my soul because it was a general feeling dispersed everywhere and nowhere at the same time) but i continued to read because disgust will never beat curiosity for me. i'm completely torn because i want to hate the story, but i know that's what makes it so good.