Jake

[Letti]

Let's talk about him a little bit more.
Do you like him?
Is he a child or an adult in your eyes?


If you ask me I see him as a very brave child with a gunslinger heart and abilities but he is still a kid in my eyes.

[Matt]

Towards the end, I saw him as grown up. In my opinion, the depth of someones maturity is based almost entirely on experience.

I would want the guy backing me up for any fight I was in and I would never feel that way about a child. :lol:

[VolsToTheWall]

I see Jake as being some of both. You could make arguments for him being either that would sound logical, so I voted for the both option. Yes, by the end of the story, he has grown in maturity by leaps and bounds (in fact he's more mature than some people I know around my age in some ways :lol:). He is able to handle the responsibilties of an adult, and is able to execute his adult responsibilites with great efficiency. Also, as Matt mentioned, Jake already has more life experience than some people have in their entire lives, so that adds to his maturity.

At the same time, he also still retains a lot of what makes a kid, a kid. In the heat of the battle he clearly displays the heart of a true Gunslinger, but during the downtime, when he is not performing any of his duty of being a Gunslinger, he can just transform into a kid again. Laughing at silly jokes with Eddie, having the thoughts that someone of his age would be having, and seeing his experiences, and the world, through the eyes of someone his age. He manages to hold onto his youthful emotions, even while being able to have a backbone of steel when need be, but he also still retains the emotions of someone his age, he is just able to store those away when performing his duties as a Gunslinger, but then he is able to revert back to some sort of a normal boy when his duties have been completed. One thing from book 7 that exemplifies this, which I will mark with a spoiler tag is. Even after all that Jake has been through, and just after losing the man whom he considers an older Brother, he is thunderstruck when given his very first kiss by Dani Rostov, and as he said, he did remember that for the rest of his sadly shortened life.

[Chassit]

Somewhere in between. As Matt mentioned, Jake would certainly make a good back up...Hell, Id be the back up LOL!

XIX

[Jean]

I voted child, as Nikolett did. Kids are all different, you know. If you look at military history, you'll see a lot of kids behaving like little adults, fighting and dying and doing all that adult stuff; and still remaining children, which could be seen at the moments of peace, or when those who survived were placed back into normal environment. They never were "like any other kids", but then again, what kid is?

[Letti]

The way he loves Oy.. the way the can open his heart to a little animal.. and the way he can forgive things..
He is too clean to be an adult.
Does it make any sense?

[alinda]

:cowboy: I voted adult, I think he shows responsibility for himself and others, and that is my idea of what it means to be an adult...and Iabsolutely agree I'd have his back-up anyday!!

[Letti]

I voted child, as Nikolett did. Kids are all different, you know. If you look at military history, you'll see a lot of kids behaving like little adults, fighting and dying and doing all that adult stuff; and still remaining children, which could be seen at the moments of peace, or when those who survived were placed back into normal environment. They never were "like any other kids", but then again, what kid is?

We are alone, my friend. ;)

[Jean]

1. The way he loves Oy.. the way the can open his heart to a little animal.. and the way he can forgive things..
2. He is too clean to be an adult.
Does it make any sense?
1. I don't think loving Oy or opening his heart has anything to do with him being a child.

2. Generally speaking, I don't believe in children's purity. I am inclined to differ purity as virtue from innocence caused by ignorance (which we too often mistake for purity in children).

[Letti]

1. The way he loves Oy.. the way the can open his heart to a little animal.. and the way he can forgive things..
2. He is too clean to be an adult.
Does it make any sense?
1. I don't think loving Oy or opening his heart has anything to do with him being a child.

2. Generally speaking, I don't believe in children's purity. I am inclined to differ purity as virtue from innocence caused by ignorance (which we too often mistake for purity in children).

1. As I wrote it the way he loved him... not the fact but the way.

2. I can see your point Jean but I don't agree. I suffered so much as a child from other children.. they hurt me every single day and when I went to sleep and when nobody saw me I cried for hours.
Of course it doesn't mean I didn't cry in fron of them. I did. So if someone I know how evil children can be believe me Jean.
But I am over it and I see children.
They can be nasty they can be evil.. but still I say there is something so innocent and good in all of them... the oh so clear desire to be loved and accepted.
Time and this world can kill it out.

[Brice]

1. The way he loves Oy.. the way the can open his heart to a little animal.. and the way he can forgive things..
2. He is too clean to be an adult.
Does it make any sense?
1. I don't think loving Oy or opening his heart has anything to do with him being a child.

2. Generally speaking, I don't believe in children's purity. I am inclined to differ purity as virtue from innocence caused by ignorance (which we too often mistake for purity in children).

1. As I wrote it the way he loved him... not the fact but the way.

2. I can see your point Jean but I don't agree. I suffered so much as a child from other children.. they hurt me every single day and when I went to sleep and when nobody saw me I cried for hours.
Of course it doesn't mean I didn't cry in fron of them. I did. So if someone I know how evil children can be believe me Jean.
But I am over it and I see children.
They can be nasty they can be evil.. but still I say there is something so innocent and good in all of them... the oh so clear desire to be loved and accepted.
Time and this world can kill it out.


No, it can't. :P





I voted child too. The mere fact that circumstance forced him to behave in mature ways sometimes doesn't negate him being a child nor is it even related to the matter.

[Letti]

1. The way he loves Oy.. the way the can open his heart to a little animal.. and the way he can forgive things..
2. He is too clean to be an adult.
Does it make any sense?
1. I don't think loving Oy or opening his heart has anything to do with him being a child.

2. Generally speaking, I don't believe in children's purity. I am inclined to differ purity as virtue from innocence caused by ignorance (which we too often mistake for purity in children).

1. As I wrote it the way he loved him... not the fact but the way.

2. I can see your point Jean but I don't agree. I suffered so much as a child from other children.. they hurt me every single day and when I went to sleep and when nobody saw me I cried for hours.
Of course it doesn't mean I didn't cry in fron of them. I did. So if someone I know how evil children can be believe me Jean.
But I am over it and I see children.
They can be nasty they can be evil.. but still I say there is something so innocent and good in all of them... the oh so clear desire to be loved and accepted.
Time and this world can kill it out.


No, it can't. :P

I hope you don't think that you could convince me. :D

[MonteGss]

I voted child. I guess one could argue that he "won a test of manhood" after the fight with the Wolves (or in the Dixie Pig) but his manliness would only be in two of the seven books so for me, Jake is a child.

[Brice]

1. The way he loves Oy.. the way the can open his heart to a little animal.. and the way he can forgive things..
2. He is too clean to be an adult.
Does it make any sense?
1. I don't think loving Oy or opening his heart has anything to do with him being a child.

2. Generally speaking, I don't believe in children's purity. I am inclined to differ purity as virtue from innocence caused by ignorance (which we too often mistake for purity in children).

1. As I wrote it the way he loved him... not the fact but the way.

2. I can see your point Jean but I don't agree. I suffered so much as a child from other children.. they hurt me every single day and when I went to sleep and when nobody saw me I cried for hours.
Of course it doesn't mean I didn't cry in fron of them. I did. So if someone I know how evil children can be believe me Jean.
But I am over it and I see children.
They can be nasty they can be evil.. but still I say there is something so innocent and good in all of them... the oh so clear desire to be loved and accepted.
Time and this world can kill it out.


No, it can't. :P

I hope you don't think that you could convince me. :D


...and why would you hope that dear?

[Letti]

1. The way he loves Oy.. the way the can open his heart to a little animal.. and the way he can forgive things..
2. He is too clean to be an adult.
Does it make any sense?
1. I don't think loving Oy or opening his heart has anything to do with him being a child.

2. Generally speaking, I don't believe in children's purity. I am inclined to differ purity as virtue from innocence caused by ignorance (which we too often mistake for purity in children).

1. As I wrote it the way he loved him... not the fact but the way.

2. I can see your point Jean but I don't agree. I suffered so much as a child from other children.. they hurt me every single day and when I went to sleep and when nobody saw me I cried for hours.
Of course it doesn't mean I didn't cry in fron of them. I did. So if someone I know how evil children can be believe me Jean.
But I am over it and I see children.
They can be nasty they can be evil.. but still I say there is something so innocent and good in all of them... the oh so clear desire to be loved and accepted.
Time and this world can kill it out.


No, it can't. :P

I hope you don't think that you could convince me. :D


...and why would you hope that dear?

You might try to convince me and let me know some more details about your view. *hopes*

[Brice]

1. The way he loves Oy.. the way the can open his heart to a little animal.. and the way he can forgive things..
2. He is too clean to be an adult.
Does it make any sense?
1. I don't think loving Oy or opening his heart has anything to do with him being a child.

2. Generally speaking, I don't believe in children's purity. I am inclined to differ purity as virtue from innocence caused by ignorance (which we too often mistake for purity in children).

1. As I wrote it the way he loved him... not the fact but the way.

2. I can see your point Jean but I don't agree. I suffered so much as a child from other children.. they hurt me every single day and when I went to sleep and when nobody saw me I cried for hours.
Of course it doesn't mean I didn't cry in fron of them. I did. So if someone I know how evil children can be believe me Jean.
But I am over it and I see children.
They can be nasty they can be evil.. but still I say there is something so innocent and good in all of them... the oh so clear desire to be loved and accepted.
Time and this world can kill it out.


No, it can't. :P

I hope you don't think that you could convince me. :D


...and why would you hope that dear?

You might try to convince me and let me know some more details about your view. *hopes*

Hmm..I don't know that I can convince you...you suggested that time and the world can kill that childlike desire to be loved and accepted. I maintain that it can't ...maybe it sleeps but it's still there IMO.

[Hannah]

More so than Eddie and Susannah, I saw Jake as a natural born gunslinger. He had things about him which made him both childlike and adultlike, in my opinion.

[Letti]

Brice, now I see your point. The question is if someonething is so damn deep in a human soul that noone is able to dig it out... can we count with it?

[Brice]

Brice, now I see your point. The question is if someonething is so damn deep in a human soul that noone is able to dig it out... can we count with it?

...and the answer is that I don't think that anything is buried so deep in anyone that it can't be dug up pretty easy. Ya' just gotta' dig in the right places. ;)

[Letti]

Brice, now I see your point. The question is if someonething is so damn deep in a human soul that noone is able to dig it out... can we count with it?

...and the answer is that I don't think that anything is buried so deep in anyone that it can't be dug up pretty easy. Ya' just gotta' dig in the right places. ;)

And that's why I love you so much. Even if we don't exactly agree about this question. However I wish I could. :rose:

[Jake Chambers]

He's an adult..

Responsibility, experience, seen more than enough to be considered an adult. Maturity comes not with age but with wisdom and experience. So in my book he's an adult.

[Brice]

Brice, now I see your point. The question is if someonething is so damn deep in a human soul that noone is able to dig it out... can we count with it?

...and the answer is that I don't think that anything is buried so deep in anyone that it can't be dug up pretty easy. Ya' just gotta' dig in the right places. ;)

And that's why I love you so much. Even if we don't exactly agree about this question. However I wish I could. :rose:

:huglove:

[Darkthoughts]

A child.

He still has those childhood fears (the mindtrap being a prime example) also what Vols said in the spoiler tags. Yet, much more than just this.

I'm not sure I could pinpoint the exact moment in a persons life when they become an adult (I'm sure it would differ too) - but its not solely age OR experience - more a combination of the two. Even though I would very sincerely respect Jake and the experiences he has had, he'd still be a child to me.

[Darkthoughts]

Bump.

Seriously, no-one wants to discuss Jake? :cry:

[Letti]

Bump.

Seriously, no-one wants to discuss Jake? :cry:

Me! Me! Me!
But... I have been always around. :)

[jayson]

I'm not sure I could pinpoint the exact moment in a persons life when they become an adult (I'm sure it would differ too) - but its not solely age OR experience - more a combination of the two. Even though I would very sincerely respect Jake and the experiences he has had, he'd still be a child to me.

I agree Lisa. In fact, I'd go further and say that there isn't typically a distinct moment in time when someone becomes wholly an adult. It's much more of a gradual process. Jake may show many signs that his ordeals are causing him to make mature decisions before his time, but he is still very much an 11 year old boy.

[Darkthoughts]

Exactly. Infact, it's one of the reasons I enjoyed WOTC so much, for that glimpse we get of Jake finally having the time, the setting and the companions (Oy and Benny) to act his age.

It was an indication to me that Jake is still very much a child, but that he was able (and probably all the more so because he was younger and lacking more adult inhibitions and anxieties) to adapt to the situations that he faced on the quest. That the trials he went through that we could perceive as making him adult, actually did nothing of the sort.

[jayson]

Exactly. Much like Jack Sawyer in The Talisman, both faced many trials which forced them to think and act like adults, but this didn't make them adults.

[sarah]

For me, I see Jake as trying to be a kid in WotC. He knows he's young and is missing out on childhood memories and so he tries, and somewhat succeeds, with Benny. He is a bit sad that he missed those memories and so he tries to be his age with him. But really, I think Jake passed on as a child the moment he met Roland in the desert. I think the time that he crossed over was in hearing of Roland becoming an adult. Everything that happens to Jake afterward is just part of his growing as a gunslinger, imo.


EDIT:

I just want to say that Jack Sawyer rocks. I love that kid, but he was almost always a kid forced to grow up fast to survive and to do what he must for his mother. Although many people have compared Jake and Jack as twinners, I don't think they are. I don't think that Jake was forced to grow up to survive. I think Jake just became what he was destined to become, a gunslinger.

[John_and_Yoko]

At the end of the series when Susannah meets Eddie and Jake Toren, how old is Jake supposed to be? It doesn't say, and I don't recall anyone else either asking or telling his age.

Is he 21 (his age if he'd lived to 1987) or is he 11 (the age Jake Chambers was)? I'm tempted to say the former (that'd still make him Eddie's "kid" brother), but since the "real" Eddie and Jake weren't even related....

[ManOfWesternesse]

My impression was we were looking at a (roughly) 23-24 yr-old Eddie & 11-12 yr-old Jake (roughly the age we 'knew' them at in the series). Don't recall thinking about it in any other way.

[John_and_Yoko]

My impression was we were looking at a (roughly) 23-24 yr-old Eddie & 11-12 yr-old Jake (roughly the age we 'knew' them at in the series). Don't recall thinking about it in any other way.

That's why I asked--because Jake Chambers was born in 1966 but Eddie Dean was born in 1964, only two years earlier.

[ManOfWesternesse]

Does the year of birth of the 2 'old' Eddie & Jake's matter though?

What year does Susannah meet the 'new' Toren brothers in? Were we told? (I honestly can't remember)
- is it '99? - that would 'make' Eddie 36 & Jake 34. That doesn't seem right to me. (too old for both)
- is it '87 (as you mention above). That makes them 23 & 21. Again it doesn't seem right to me (too close in age).

I think regardless of the year of birth of the 'originals', the Toren brothers are c. 24 & 12 years old, or something like that.

Remember in Roland's world Eddie & Jake walk side-by-side, one 23 & the other 11, even though they were 'born' just 2 years apart?

[jayson]

I think regardless of the year of birth of the 'originals', the Toren brothers are c. 24 & 12 years old, or something like that.

Remember in Roland's world Eddie & Jake walk side-by-side, one 23 & the other 11, even though they were 'born' just 2 years apart?

I agree Brian. I got the impression that whoever we may believe these two are (ie. twinners, the "real" Eddie and Jake, or derivations or whatever) they are the ages Susannah is familiar with. Now hold old does that make Eddie since King says he's both 21 and 23 in TDotT? :orely:

[Brice]

He is both simultaneously? :wtf:

[John_and_Yoko]

Does the year of birth of the 2 'old' Eddie & Jake's matter though?

What year does Susannah meet the 'new' Toren brothers in? Were we told? (I honestly can't remember)
- is it '99? - that would 'make' Eddie 36 & Jake 34. That doesn't seem right to me. (too old for both)
- is it '87 (as you mention above). That makes them 23 & 21. Again it doesn't seem right to me (too close in age).

I think regardless of the year of birth of the 'originals', the Toren brothers are c. 24 & 12 years old, or something like that.

Remember in Roland's world Eddie & Jake walk side-by-side, one 23 & the other 11, even though they were 'born' just 2 years apart?

It was 1987--Susannah asked if Ronald Reagan was really the President, as Eddie Dean had told her he was.

[Kidd Ikarus]

I didn't think Reagan was president in the end. Wasn't someone else? Gary something . . . ?

[John_and_Yoko]

I didn't think Reagan was president in the end. Wasn't someone else? Gary something . . . ?

Gary Hart, yeah. Wishful thinking on King's part.

[Kidd Ikarus]

Oh my bad. You were sayin how Eddie had told her during the series, not at the end in New York. I'm a dumb-ass. I cry your pardon. :lol:

[Myste]

He is more child than adult in any of those books. Of course he got more mature till the end but I have always seen him as a child.

[Delah]

This is a really layered topic, with everyone making lots of good points.

I would argue that Jake is more of an adult than a child throughout the series as a whole. And by that, I mean he acts/responds to a lot of things more like an adult would than a child. And this isn't something new from his birth into Mid-World and his meeting the gunslinger: King makes it very clear that Jake's home life in NY is very structured, very organized, very professional, very adult. Jake has a problem making friends his own age because he acts too much like an adult rather than a child. He interacts with his parents (when they pay attention to him at all) more like an adult than a child. He interacts with Greta Shaw the same way. His entire life, Jake is expected to be mature and near perfect and in control. Which is the opposite of how many children are.

And that doesn't change, really, when he gets to Mid-World. He gets a few moments of freedom with Benny and Eddie (And Oy, who I think is one of the ways King reminded us of Jake's being a child) but for the most part, Jake still has to act mature, and controlled, only now people are shooting at him. I think Jake would (and did) relish his few opportunities to act like a kid, but by Wolves, its too ingrained in him to act like an adult. He still can act (and in many cases) think like a child, but his default response is to think of what an adult would do ... and in some cases, what Roland would do.

Having said that, I think Jake displays a lot of traits and characteristics of a child; He enjoys spending time with Benny; his willingness to forgive people (like Roland and Ben Slightman), his dependence on Roland. And now, having typed this post, I wish King would have given Jake a few more opportunities to just "be a kid," in addition to the deaths/kidnappings/insanity/beatings/betrayals Jake already had to endure.

[haunted.lunchbox]

Forgive me, it's been a while since I've read DT and so my facts may be a little rusty, but I have a theory I would like to discuss.

We all know Roland has done the loop many times, but maybe it hasn't been the same each time. What I mean is this, he came to the first door, got eddie, second door got crazy susannah, and the third door he created a paradox in which he would eventually get Jake back. Is it possible in every other loop he never got Jake back, he instead ended up with Jack Mort, and the fact that he saved Jake, who he thinks of as a son eventually, is what was the key to his redemption and acquiring the horn?

My facts may be sketchy, I'm starting to reread Gunslinger starting... last night.

[Letti]

Forgive me, it's been a while since I've read DT and so my facts may be a little rusty, but I have a theory I would like to discuss.

We all know Roland has done the loop many times, but maybe it hasn't been the same each time. What I mean is this, he came to the first door, got eddie, second door got crazy susannah, and the third door he created a paradox in which he would eventually get Jake back. Is it possible in every other loop he never got Jake back, he instead ended up with Jack Mort, and the fact that he saved Jake, who he thinks of as a son eventually, is what was the key to his redemption and acquiring the horn?

My facts may be sketchy, I'm starting to reread Gunslinger starting... last night.

What do you mean by 'ended up with Jack Mort'? You mean making a ka-tet with him?!
I am sorry if I misunderstood you.

Anyway I am sure the loops aren't the same.

[haunted.lunchbox]

Forgive me, it's been a while since I've read DT and so my facts may be a little rusty, but I have a theory I would like to discuss.

We all know Roland has done the loop many times, but maybe it hasn't been the same each time. What I mean is this, he came to the first door, got eddie, second door got crazy susannah, and the third door he created a paradox in which he would eventually get Jake back. Is it possible in every other loop he never got Jake back, he instead ended up with Jack Mort, and the fact that he saved Jake, who he thinks of as a son eventually, is what was the key to his redemption and acquiring the horn?

My facts may be sketchy, I'm starting to reread Gunslinger starting... last night.

What do you mean by 'ended up with Jack Mort'? You mean making a ka-tet with him?!
I am sorry if I misunderstood you.

Anyway I am sure the loops aren't the same.

Well, Jack Mort was the third door. The first two doors he took people out of, the third door he went into the mind of Jack, the psycho. What if in other loops he decided not to save Jake from being shoved into traffic by mort, but instead, brought him through the door. I ask this because Jake didn't exactly become part of the group the same way that Eddie and Susannah did, and something must have happened for the horn to finally have made it into his possession.

Thinking a little further, at the end of Gunslinger, the MIB kind of offers himself in exchange for Jake being dropped, or its implied. Why would MIB do this if not because Jake was important for some reason? Would MIB really decide to stop running and hang out with Roland if it wasn't for an important reason?

[Letti]

Forgive me, it's been a while since I've read DT and so my facts may be a little rusty, but I have a theory I would like to discuss.

We all know Roland has done the loop many times, but maybe it hasn't been the same each time. What I mean is this, he came to the first door, got eddie, second door got crazy susannah, and the third door he created a paradox in which he would eventually get Jake back. Is it possible in every other loop he never got Jake back, he instead ended up with Jack Mort, and the fact that he saved Jake, who he thinks of as a son eventually, is what was the key to his redemption and acquiring the horn?

My facts may be sketchy, I'm starting to reread Gunslinger starting... last night.

What do you mean by 'ended up with Jack Mort'? You mean making a ka-tet with him?!
I am sorry if I misunderstood you.

Anyway I am sure the loops aren't the same.

Well, Jack Mort was the third door. The first two doors he took people out of, the third door he went into the mind of Jack, the psycho. What if in other loops he decided not to save Jake from being shoved into traffic by mort, but instead, brought him through the door. I ask this because Jake didn't exactly become part of the group the same way that Eddie and Susannah did, and something must have happened for the horn to finally have made it into his possession.

I don't think Jack Mort could be part of any kind of true ka-tet. He is weak and gutless. I think of Mort as a door to Jake.

I think the horn appears at the end of the series to show us, the constant readers, that the loops change. And so does Roland, it's even more important. So does his decisions.
Of course there are many theories about the horn but IMHO the horn has nothing to do with Mort.

[haunted.lunchbox]

Forgive me, it's been a while since I've read DT and so my facts may be a little rusty, but I have a theory I would like to discuss.

My facts may be sketchy, I'm starting to reread Gunslinger starting... last night.

What do you mean by 'ended up with Jack Mort'? You mean making a ka-tet with him?!
I am sorry if I misunderstood you.

Anyway I am sure the loops aren't the same.

Well, Jack Mort was the third door. The first two doors he took people out of, the third door he went into the mind of Jack, the psycho. What if in other loops he decided not to save Jake from being shoved into traffic by mort, but instead, brought him through the door. I ask this because Jake didn't exactly become part of the group the same way that Eddie and Susannah did, and something must have happened for the horn to finally have made it into his possession.

I don't think Jack Mort could be part of any kind of true ka-tet. He is weak and gutless. I think of Mort as a door to Jake.


It is true Jack Mort would not have the mentality of a Gunslinger, so I see where maybe he shouldn't have been brought through the door, but being a fan of 'out of the box' thinking, I am not willing to abandon the theory entirely.

I wish I could read his first loop so that I could compare it to his last loop to see how different they were, if they were different at all. I am consumed with the idea that he did something on his last loop that redeemed himself, and brought him the horn. Consumed I tell you.

My other big mystery here is why the MIB allowed himself to be caught at the end of the first book. My only guess is that he needed to get Jake out of the picture and didn't foresee him coming back; however, it may mean nothing.

[Letti]

Forgive me, it's been a while since I've read DT and so my facts may be a little rusty, but I have a theory I would like to discuss.

My facts may be sketchy, I'm starting to reread Gunslinger starting... last night.

What do you mean by 'ended up with Jack Mort'? You mean making a ka-tet with him?!
I am sorry if I misunderstood you.

Anyway I am sure the loops aren't the same.

Well, Jack Mort was the third door. The first two doors he took people out of, the third door he went into the mind of Jack, the psycho. What if in other loops he decided not to save Jake from being shoved into traffic by mort, but instead, brought him through the door. I ask this because Jake didn't exactly become part of the group the same way that Eddie and Susannah did, and something must have happened for the horn to finally have made it into his possession.

I don't think Jack Mort could be part of any kind of true ka-tet. He is weak and gutless. I think of Mort as a door to Jake.


1. It is true Jack Mort would not have the mentality of a Gunslinger, so I see where maybe he shouldn't have been brought through the door, but being a fan of 'out of the box' thinking, I am not willing to abandon the theory entirely.

2. I wish I could read his first loop so that I could compare it to his last loop to see how different they were, if they were different at all. I am consumed with the idea that he did something on his last loop that redeemed himself, and brought him the horn. Consumed I tell you.

3. My other big mystery here is why the MIB allowed himself to be caught at the end of the first book. My only guess is that he needed to get Jake out of the picture and didn't foresee him coming back; however, it may mean nothing.

1. Let us know how you think about it in the future.

2. I think a simple reread can get you closer to those loops.

3. Well I think you are right. On the one hand MIB wanted to break Roland and let's face it he built a really good trap.
On the other hand I think he loved playing. Having a long discussion with Roland and making him believe that he is dead was a piece of cherry cake for him.

[HellBeast]

From the use of 'Redemption' in the Waste Land, I've gotta say that whatever Roland did to redeem himself happened in the Waste Land, or at least started there.

[haunted.lunchbox]

From the use of 'Redemption' in the Waste Land, I've gotta say that whatever Roland did to redeem himself happened in the Waste Land, or at least started there.

I'm unfamiliar with the use of Redemption in this book? It's been a while.

[John Blaze]

I wish I could read his first loop so that I could compare it to his last loop to see how different they were, if they were different at all. I am consumed with the idea that he did something on his last loop that redeemed himself, and brought him the horn. Consumed I tell you.


I've always felt like Roland is becoming more and more human with each loop, hence every loop he becomes closer to finishing his quest once and for all, be it my getting something he can use or another member of the ka-tet that can help him.


Now that I worded it, it sounds like unlocking achievements in a video game. :lol:

[haunted.lunchbox]

I wish I could read his first loop so that I could compare it to his last loop to see how different they were, if they were different at all. I am consumed with the idea that he did something on his last loop that redeemed himself, and brought him the horn. Consumed I tell you.


I've always felt like Roland is becoming more and more human with each loop, hence every loop he becomes closer to finishing his quest once and for all, be it my getting something he can use or another member of the ka-tet that can help him.


Now that I worded it, it sounds like unlocking achievements in a video game. :lol:

I completely agree! I think he makes different choices each time. There is no way to verify this though! Maybe each loop he 'tries out' new members to his ka-tet, or makes different choices with them. I just don't see every loop going the exact same and him all of a sudden getting rewarded with a horn.

[HellBeast]

'Redemption' is the word printed at the beginning of the novel. I may be wrong that it's Waste Land, but it's definitely in one of them, i.e. Reproduction is Song of Susannah's I'm sure.

[haunted.lunchbox]

'Redemption' is the word printed at the beginning of the novel. I may be wrong that it's Waste Land, but it's definitely in one of them, i.e. Reproduction is Song of Susannah's I'm sure.

Hmmm... I never related that to anything.

[HellBeast]

I never really thought anything of them until I'd finished the novels. I think more are more fitting than others. I can't rightly remember all of them and I can't check them because my ex has all my DT books. OWNED. :(

[John Blaze]

yes, you were owned. Find her (or him) and get them back. :beat: