PoliticalISM--New hate? (I know, that's not a word)

[Matt]

I've been dealing with political cycles at the fed and state level since I could...so its about 20 years.

Seems to me, this thing has been leading up to where it is for a while but I can not remember a time in the past where it has been so much common place as it is these days. This goes for both parties.

The genesis of the question was a situation my daughter ran into. I have always involved my children in the political process to help them make an informed decision so she comes by her opinions through research and looking at the facts. Just as my older daughter who I don't agree with politically does.

She is registering the other party, will vote for the Obama/Biden ticket...am I to insult her, her choice of life style, her beliefs?

On the same hand, does she consider her sister un informed--stupid--SHEEP?

No she does not and because of that, she is able to have informed discussions with others without insulting them personally on choices that have nothing to do with their political association.

So what I am trying to find out is when did this become okay. When did parents start teaching their children to hate other Americans that happen to be of a different political party?

We make a fucking joke out of people and paint them all with a broad stroke and that is the most uninformed action a person can take. But everyone laughs it up like that doesn't matter.

We keep talking about how its time to get to the issues and then I read all over the net about people's personal choices. No wonder we can't get quality people to run for office in this country. People are mean about it, they are ugly about it and its got to stop imo.

Comment in this thread but not about the candidates, only about politics. I know there are people on this board with differing opinions about what is happening out there, please feel free to express them here.

[John_and_Yoko]

What you're doing is the best possible option, and I wish more people did that.

I only worry that I might have difficulty doing it myself, as it's only recently that I've come to realize my own polarized political bigotry. But at least I'm trying to work past that now.

It is NOT okay for ANYONE to teach their children to hate other people for ANY reason.

[razz]

I've poked fun at certain organizations and such, but there is no social class (financial, religious, political, etc) that i downright hate. Some i dislike, yes, but i get mad at people who insult Germans because of the 1940s, and even people who hate National Socialists (nazis). If i recall what i have read, the Holocaust wasn't a Nazi thing. it was a Hitler thing. I came from his time growing up homeless in Vienna. He thought the jews were mocking him for some reason. But if i recall correctly, Nazis, even now, wouldn't be what they are today, if not for Hitler joining, and they weren't what they are. did that make sense? I kinda lost my train of thoguht, and the words left me.

[Matt]

Thank you J&Y--that is what is so mind boggling about it. People are so tolerant until it comes to someone from a different political party and then that is out the window.

All I know is we have 1 month until this election and people are still talking about stuff that doesn't matter. What about the issues.

the war
the economy
energy independence
national security
health care

the list goes on and on...

[jayson]

I think what contributes greatly to this phenomenon is that the candidates themselves seem unable or unwilling to stick to the issues. This is much more apparent at the state and local level, but still readily evident at the federal level.

When the campaigns resort to this style, the pundits follow and then, monkey see, monkey do... the people are sure to follow. There is a large portion of the population who finds their self-identification with a specific political brand doesn't require them to educate themselves but only to regurgitate the partisan nastiness of the pundits on what they perceive to be "their side". Obviously this is not true of all partisan folks. This forum has shown that many people of many differing political ideologies can engage in intelligent and civil discourse.

[Matt]

I think that's true, the site itself is an oasis if you are the type that reads this kind of thing all day.

And I also agree that it's driven somehow by the candidates themselves in the way that they snip at each other about stupid crap all the time. Its like, if one does it, the other has to or they will be left behind in our culture...called scared or stupid. So they have to play

What I'm mostly worried about is that now we have an entire generation that thinks its funny to characterize people of different political views as somehow..."dangerous or stupid". I don't agree with even Barak Obama on a number of issues but I have never considered him dangerous or stupid, just misguided.

But this is as bad now as it was when it was okay to teach your children a person was stupid (or otherwise less than you) because of the color of their skin. We (people) are doing the exact same thing with our children right now and some are violent about it.

[gsvec]

I think another big player in all this is the media. EVERYTHING is news these days and they tend to highlight things instead of just gliding over them like it was back when news was news and not a "news story". The world is under a microscope and we're seeing more and more things as a result, imo.

[Matt]

I totally agree Gretchen. The "media" is the absolute worst culprit in what is happening imo.

[razz]

makes sense. but at the same time that the figurative microscope is zooming in, we're not able to see the whole picture. why does it matter if something is in depth, if we can't see what matters?

[Matt]

I must not have understood what Gretchen meant there. :lol:

But yes, they focus in on all the wrong things. If there is no context (which is what I think you mean razz)--then there is no story. Its a huge problem out there.

I know it's hard to run in different circles but have you guys ran into this at all? Has anyone had a situation where they witnessed a judgment of someone's actual character based on their political positions?

[John_and_Yoko]

Thank you J&Y--that is what is so mind boggling about it. People are so tolerant until it comes to someone from a different political party and then that is out the window.

You're welcome. And you're right--I was always taught that the definition of bigotry is that what's more important to you than what's being said or done is WHO is doing it.

If the "right" person does it, it's okay, but if the "wrong" person does it, it's bad? :orely:

I say if something's bad to do or say (or conversely, if it's GOOD to do or say), it shouldn't matter who's doing or saying it.

And razz, are you talking about how it started as simply the German Workers' Party before it became the National Socialist GWP (or Nazi party)?

[razz]

I just looked up "Nazi" in wikipedia, and it said that the national socialists DID have a thing against the Jews. while wikipedia isn't the most reliable source out there, if it is right, then I was wrong about what i said, and i kinda did what we were talkign about. not getting my facts straight, or not gettign the entire story. sorry.

[jayson]

I think another big player in all this is the media. EVERYTHING is news these days and they tend to highlight things instead of just gliding over them like it was back when news was news and not a "news story". The world is under a microscope and we're seeing more and more things as a result, imo.

Absolutely. The thing about it is, a lot of people write this off as a consequence of the "24-hour news cycle". I think the real shame is that 24 hour news channels should be utilizing that time to actually examine issues in depth rather than present the same sound byte journalism over and over again every 15 minutes. The mainstream media's lack of interest in anything resembling in-depth journalism is the very reason I left school the first time around. The field was changing rapidly into something with which I wanted no part whatsoever.

[Daghain]

While I don't have a problem with people having different views than I do and wouldn't call them stupid for that, I *do* have a problem with people who just parrot the party line without a little research and intelligent thought. If you can't be bothered to learn a thing or two, or figure out WHY what you're saying makes sense (or doesn't), then yep, YER A MORON.

As far as people raising their kids to call others stupid, maybe it's just me, but I've noticed a lot more lately that the very people who recite what they've seen on CNN or read in the local paper as the absolute truth without putting any actual thought behind it also tend to be the people who raise their kids to dislike everyone who is not EXACTLY LIKE THEM.

[cozener]

I'm teaching my boys that Republicans are bad, wicked, greedy people that should be killed whenever the opportunity presents itself. My little one, Beckett, I'm so proud...he bit his first Republican child last week and made him cry like the little right wing bitchass that he is. I, myself, have killed 37. Chopped them up into little pieces and stuffed them down rabbit holes out in the country. My wife uses her sex to entice them to our home where I can dispatch them quietly with no witnesses.

I figure once we work our way through the republicans we can start on these rightist splinter groups like the Libertarians.

[valtr0n]

It's all a part of the game. Politicians play on this, and play us against one another. A lot of people fall for it. Not everyone, but a lot. It is in their best interest to keep the nation divided, to keep us hating one another, to keep us from having meaningful conversations about the future and direction of this country.

I agree with Matt, it has to stop.

But, how can we stop it? People have become so locked down about their political orientation it's almost become a religion. It's extremely difficult to get them to think about things reasonably and not emotionally. Most of them have never even thought beyond the party line, and they get mad when you point that out.

I'm a Libertarian, Agnostic, Gun-loving, Deer-killing, Green person. I don't fall into their neat little box, and neither should anyone else.

[Jean]

I don't fall into their neat little box, and neither should anyone else.
http://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k291/mishemplushem/Facilitation/bear_thumb.gifhttp://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k291/mishemplushem/Facilitation/bear_thumb.gifhttp://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k291/mishemplushem/Facilitation/bear_thumb.gif
signed: freethinking Catholic vagabond conservative cosmopolitan Russian human bear

[ManOfWesternesse]

....Chopped them up into little pieces and stuffed them down rabbit holes .....

:rofl:
great post!

[cozener]

Actually, I shouldn't joke. This is a serious topic. I always laugh at things I shouldn't. Like when I'm killing one of these republicans and they scream one of those high pitched girly screams, the kids start to laugh, and...doggonnit...its so cute that I start laughing too, then the wife starts in and the last thing that this poor man hears is our cackles of glee. This bothers me a little.

[Matt]

Glad you are taking this seriously Cozener. :D

I totally agree with your post Nick, I believe this has gone past what people should consider a joke.

But I'm cool with laughing it up about it, that's not what I am trying to say. I guess, as always, I can simply teach my own children and hope for the best.

[cozener]

I hate to admit this but my wife is a rabid liberal. When she finds out that someone is a republican she immediately makes a series of judgments about them that are unfair and totally unfounded. But then, I do this too. But I don't do this to the extent that she does. Her view of republicans is decidedly adversarial. When Angela hears that someone is a republican, they're pretty much an ultra religious, greedy, hypocritical idiot and they have to prove that they aren't.

[Matt]

Perfect example of what I mean.

[jayson]

I have some "rabid liberal" friends who are very much the same way. I tend to get up and leave the room when political discourse turns into partisan ranting.

[Brice]

I think the whole problem is we are (as a society) obsessed with labels. It is natural that with our need to label everything and our fears of things/people that are different that we compartmentalize and stereotype. I think it is the natural tendency, but one we can work against. Personally I see no reason for labeling each other at all. It serves no real purpose...and besides there are plenty of good reasons to hate people without looking for them. :lol: Seriously though, I see no wrong in saying an idea is stupid, when it clearly is. Calling an idea stupid (or nearly any other adjective) is far from calling the individual the same. However, if you are going to go trashing someone's idea a little sensitivity is in order and one should explain why it is stupid, etc... I do think it's obvious that most people think their ideas are superior though, otherwise why would they have chosen them over all the other ideas. It would be illogical to say I believe there isn't a god, but I think it's equally likely there is one., or I think Republicans will best represent us, but Democrats will do just as well. It would be absurd. I think the key is having a little compassion for the individual's beliefs, even if one doesn't respect the belief itself.

[jayson]

Good points Brice. I think a large part of the problem begins with self-identification with an idea/theory/philosophy. People start by labeling themselves, which automatically categorizes anyone who doesn't agree with their take as "other". The way humans deal with perceived "others" (societally and individually) has caused all manner of problems.

You mentioned compassion. That's the key.

[Brice]

Indeed!

[Daghain]

That sig would be funnier if it was spelled correctly. :lol:

[Brice]

Typo! <_<

[cozener]

Part of the problem...at least with people like my wife (and to a lesser extent, myself)...is that the right has been merged with the religious right. And I'm sorry, but the religious right...they do want to tell us all how to live our lives and sadly, because the Republicans as a party, have allowed themselves to fall pray to something I liken to the Venom symbiote, have made villains of themselves in the minds of a lot of liberals. Now a lot of folks to the left see folks to the right as people that want our country to be ruled by a religious fascist regime.

Also, a lot of the more vocal conservatives like to play the patriotism card. I, for one, do not appreciate being accused of treason because I disagree with the way conservatives want to run things (fuck you too Ms. Coulter...take the oath of enlistment lately you fucking cunt?) Anyway...

[Matt]

Sure, but that is also a generalization.

How many religious freedoms have we lost anytime the party was in power? These things are not controlled by the party in power, they are controlled by a very large body per the system we have created.

I vote right and I'm non religious in pretty much every way. My folks are liberal and very religious. Its just an example but not all people who vote the party are rabid religious people.

[jayson]

Also, a lot of the more vocal conservatives like to play the patriotism card. I, for one, do not appreciate being accused of treason because I disagree with the way conservatives want to run things

This is definitely a point with which I can identify. Because I opposed the invasion of Iraq, I have been accused in several settings of being unpatriotic. As I see it, this brand of patriotism is actually nationalism. Xenophobia is not patriotic. It is a mindset that I feel is quite stupid and dangerous.

[Matt]

I wouldn't put anymore stock in what a woman on the (radio, TV) says than I would other stuff that shows up in the media.

I can respect disagreeing with someone's platform but I am wondering if anyone has ever stood in your face and said "you are unpatriotic"...if they have, then that is exactly what I am talking about.

Obama wants to end the war...I don't consider that unpatriotic but I disagree with the method. I also disagree it is a lost cause.

[jayson]

...but I am wondering if anyone has ever stood in your face and said "you are unpatriotic"...if they have, then that is exactly what I am talking about.

Very much so. Several people at different times and in different situations (one of them was a relative!)

[Matt]

Well there you go. How does something like that make you feel?

This is exactly what I am talking about here. Not you, but the prevailing response seem to be to jump in the mud with them which is as bad as the slight in the first place.

I am totally FOR gay marriage and run in a lot of conservative circles and I have never had someone tell me it was against God...even the Paster at our church.

[jayson]

Well there you go. How does something like that make you feel?

This is exactly what I am talking about here. Not you, but the prevailing response seem to be to jump in the mud with them which is as bad as the slight in the first place.


Honestly? I'd be lying if I said my initial response to something like that was anything other than anger. As the great grandchild of people who fled this kind of dangerous xenophobia in Europe, it's a natural initial reaction.

However, I am a rational person and I know that actually displaying this anger would only serve to exacerbate the situation. In most of these cases, I responded with the most powerful weapon at my disposal, critical thinking and logic. It usually ended up with my accuser stalking off in a very foul mood because I exposed their complete ignorance. In some of the cases I simply laughed at the person and walked away.

[Matt]

Then that is the best way to handle it I guess. I've personally never been exposed to it which is why (I guess) what happened with my daughter was so distressing to me. I mean, I knew it was happening but I guess I deal with rational people all the time. <shrug>

Maybe its because people don't feel like they can get in my face because it my response would be that they need to back the fuck off me. :lol:

I speak about political stuff to folks all the time...family, friends...whatever.

I guess this whole thread seems stupid to people who have been exposed to this over and over.

[Ves'Ka Gan]

Good points, Matt.

One thing I can say (and am happy to point out) is that, although what you say is very true and very widespread, we are lucky enough not to have it here (on tdt.com) just another reason why we can have conversations like these and why we all seem to love each other (even the ones we don't!).

I can say it's been a festering sore in our country for some time. I remember my uncle saying something along the lines of "you cannot be a good Christian and vote Democrat". At this time I was too young to vote, but I still remembered being shocked at this. I think it's worse now because we have had several very polarizing issues, and many candidates have chosen to try and show how "Democrat" or "Republican" they are in taking the common stance on these issues (i.e. the war in Iraq, abortion, taxes).

I am shocked & disgusted by it myself, especially since I am a left leaning independant. I never vote straight ticket (ever! ever! never!) and sometimes vote on an issue opposite my beliefs (ex: I believe abortion is wrong, however I wouldn't vote to illegalize it). I t just has never occured to me to judge some one based ont heir politics or to feel that others have a right to jusdge me based on mine.

I'm more than likely voting democrat this election and my boyfriend is a die hard McCain supporter--if I thought he was an idiot for it not only would it make things very tense, but it would have stopped a lot of the very interesting and enlightening conversations we have had about the race and our beliefs.

[jayson]

I guess this whole thread seems stupid to people who have been exposed to this over and over.

Not at all. It seems like someone trying to get his head around something that's new to him by discussing it with others who may have had similar experiences.

[cozener]

I vote right and I'm non religious in pretty much every way. My folks are liberal and very religious. Its just an example but not all people who vote the party are rabid religious people. I know this, Matt. I, for one, know a few conservatives that are atheists. But I don't think it can be denied that the religious right plays much too large a role in the republican party as a whole. This has the effect of not only turning liberals off to anything the republicans have to say. It also turns off members of their own party. And yes, someone has stood in my face and called me unpatriotic before. Yeah, calling an ex-marine unpatriotic to his face...priceless.

[Ves'Ka Gan]

Coz--I'm still *IN* the Marines and my patriotism has been insulted due to me not supporting the Republican plans for Iraq. Hell--I joined AFTER the war started and even volunteered to go over! Didn't end up going--but am now transferring to a unit that deploys whether we are in war time or peace.

Yeah, I am one unpatriotic mah-fah. That's me.

Oohrah.
:P

[Matt]

I would like to say sorry for anyone that has insulted you guys in the past, it was not called for.

I'm not sure how much the religious part of the party has changed anything though, sure they are as loud and obnoixious as the extreme left but if I judged liberals on those folks, I would find it easy to hate all of them.

To me, its too much of a blanket statement to accuse "republicans" of being controlled by the religious right when they are simply a loud minority just like the extreme left wing. These are the misconceptions I am trying to address.

Right above me, we have an active duty left leaning Marine. That doesn't fit any mold and neither does anyone else.

[cozener]

Coz--I'm still *IN* the Marines and my patriotism has been insulted due to me not supporting the Republican plans for Iraq. Hell--I joined AFTER the war started and even volunteered to go over! Didn't end up going--but am now transferring to a unit that deploys whether we are in war time or peace.

Yeah, I am one unpatriotic mah-fah. That's me.

Oohrah.
:POorah you Benedict Arnold mother fucker you! :lol:

[Ves'Ka Gan]

I perfer Corporal Benedict Arnold mother fucker.

I earned my rank, thanks. :cool:

[Matt]

Wow!

That's sexy. :ninja:

[ladykatherine]

I know what you mean Matt. I've been running into strange occurrences with friends where they just decide I'm misinformed or unintelligent for the way I think. This angers me beyond imagination. It takes all I have not to launch myself at them and scream "well what the hell! i don't have a 3.8 gpa and spend extra time researching each canidate's/party's point for nothing!" It's really hurtful to see people so close-minded with this election. I can't for sure say anything about any other election since I am finally old enough to vote, and therefore more interested than before. I have one really good friend that actually lets it get out of hand--and he's a polisci major (go figure). He thinks that just because I can see both sides clearly to an argument (which can be quite a problem) doesn't mean I just want to sit back and be "moderate" about everything. Some people, like my friend, thinks everything has to go hand-in-hand. That, for example, if you believe abortion is wrong and should be illigeal, then you must hate homosexuals, which isn't neccessarily true. It's too hard to fit perfectly into one catergory. That was a really long and probably silly rant--sorry folks!

I just hate feeling judged, and from that have decided not to share my oppinions with anyone anymore on the political front. Besides, it's not like I'll be changing anyone's mind when they're all so closed off...and I don't neccessarily want to fight anymore...

And Ve'Ka Gan made a very good point: no one will ever fit the molding that each party 'represents' in theory. it's so silly to think everything's black and white when it comes to beliefs.

OKAY, im done writing too much
:P
--Katie

[MrQuint]

I would like to say sorry for anyone that has insulted you guys in the past, it was not called for.

I'm not sure how much the religious part of the party has changed anything though, sure they are as loud and obnoixious as the extreme left but if I judged liberals on those folks, I would find it easy to hate all of them.

To me, its too much of a blanket statement to accuse "republicans" of being controlled by the religious right when they are simply a loud minority just like the extreme left wing. These are the misconceptions I am trying to address.

Right above me, we have an active duty left leaning Marine. That doesn't fit any mold and neither does anyone else.

Hey Rio,

It's pretty evident that the god worshipers are responsible for W's second term. I agree that calling all repubs "fundamentalists" would be wrong, but the religious are not simply a loud minority in the party - as you suggest.

[alinda]

Wow!

That's sexy. :ninja:






:wtf: *snort*

[KaLikeAWheel]

My momma always told me to never discuss politics or religion with folks you wanna stay friends with...come to think of it, I've done both things on this site :ninja:

I agree with RofG and Cozener and Brice...hell, I agree with most all of you. I think a big problem is that actually researching the issues is too hard for some folks, so hey, just go along with whatever party they identify with for whatever reason (it's often an uninformed reason). Unfortunately, this year the campaign has gotten uglier than average and I think that bleeds over into the media and then the population in general.

This isn't new, though. It was just as bad, or worse, right we invaded Iraq. If you didn't agree with the decision to invade Iraq, you either "Forgot how horrible 9/11 was," or you were, "A terrorist who should just move to Iraq," or you were, "A horrible American." I could honestly go on and on with insults I had hurled at me. Politics, like religion does not lend itself to cordial discussion. Besides...lots of people are just assholes. <_<

I'm sorry if I've made anyone here feel insulted or belittled in any way in the course of discussing any topic here. :rose:
Donna

[jayson]

It was just as bad, or worse, right we invaded Iraq. If you didn't agree with the decision to invade Iraq, you either "Forgot how horrible 9/11 was," [/COLOR]

Good post Donna.

It is specifically the part that I quote above that I was confronted with several times when I expressed my opposition to the invasion of Iraq. What disgusted me the most is that these charges were coming from people who had no connection to 9/11 whatsoever other than having watched it on television. Personally, I can never forget 9/11.

Firstly, one of my parents' closest friends worked in the second tower. Luckily he was able to make it out in time.

Secondly, and what was much scarier to me at the time, was that it was on a Tuesday morning. Every other Tuesday morning my father had meetings in the first tower. At the time the reports started coming in, I had no idea if it was a Tuesday he was there or a Tuesday he was not. Gladly, it was one he was not. Had he been there, he'd have been on a floor above the point of impact and would very likely have perished.

I will never forget 9/11 and I will never allow anyone who watched it on tv with no real connection to it to tell me that I don't understand or don't remember it. For these reasons I also deplore the invocation of 9/11 to achieve political motives.

[Matt]

I agree you guys, it sucks to hear that stuff. Just as bad as it is to hear things like "stupid" and "sheep" and "uninformed".

This is a problem on both sides and I really feel like the entire thing is in politicians best interests. Which is what I truly hate about it.

I'm voting but every single one of them is out of touch and really doesn't give a shit about us for the most part. I think they just consider us like...machinery I guess.

[Brice]

I agree you guys, it sucks to hear that stuff. Just as bad as it is to hear things like "stupid" and "sheep" and "uninformed".

This is a problem on both sides and I really feel like the entire thing is in politicians best interests. Which is what I truly hate about it.

I'm voting but every single one of them is out of touch and really doesn't give a shit about us for the most part. I think they just consider us like...machinery I guess.

No, I suspect THEY view us ALL as stupid uninformed sheep. :lol:

[Matt]

I know what you mean Matt. I've been running into strange occurrences with friends where they just decide I'm misinformed or unintelligent for the way I think. This angers me beyond imagination. It takes all I have not to launch myself at them and scream "well what the hell! i don't have a 3.8 gpa and spend extra time researching each canidate's/party's point for nothing!" It's really hurtful to see people so close-minded with this election. I can't for sure say anything about any other election since I am finally old enough to vote, and therefore more interested than before. I have one really good friend that actually lets it get out of hand--and he's a polisci major (go figure). He thinks that just because I can see both sides clearly to an argument (which can be quite a problem) doesn't mean I just want to sit back and be "moderate" about everything. Some people, like my friend, thinks everything has to go hand-in-hand. That, for example, if you believe abortion is wrong and should be illigeal, then you must hate homosexuals, which isn't neccessarily true. It's too hard to fit perfectly into one catergory. That was a really long and probably silly rant--sorry folks!

I just hate feeling judged, and from that have decided not to share my oppinions with anyone anymore on the political front. Besides, it's not like I'll be changing anyone's mind when they're all so closed off...and I don't neccessarily want to fight anymore...

And Ve'Ka Gan made a very good point: no one will ever fit the molding that each party 'represents' in theory. it's so silly to think everything's black and white when it comes to beliefs.

OKAY, im done writing too much
:P
--Katie

I think this is a great post and I appreciate you putting it in here Katie (that's also my daughters name).

It does suck that we are in a position that people will judge another person totallly on their political position when there is so much more to know about a person.

I vote right and I'm also for a woman's right to choose and gay marriage.

[John_and_Yoko]

All I have to say is that I would have missed out on some great friendships and learning experiences if I'd limited my opinion of a person to their political affiliation.

I'm definitely better off for it, and I wish more people would do that....

[Woofer]

I agree you guys, it sucks to hear that stuff. Just as bad as it is to hear things like "stupid" and "sheep" and "uninformed".

This is a problem on both sides and I really feel like the entire thing is in politicians best interests. Which is what I truly hate about it.

I'm voting but every single one of them is out of touch and really doesn't give a shit about us for the most part. I think they just consider us like...machinery I guess.

No, I suspect THEY view us ALL as stupid uninformed sheep. :lol:

http://psionguild.org/forums/images/smilies/wolfsmilies/wolfinsheepsclothing.gif
Bleating and babbling we fell on his neck with a scream.
Wave upon wave of demented avengers
march cheerfully out of obscurity into the dream.

-Pink Floyd, "Sheep", Animals


http://psionguild.org/forums/images/smilies/wolfsmilies/innocentgrin.gif

[jayson]

Bleating and babbling we fell on his neck with a scream.
Wave upon wave of demented avengers
march cheerfully out of obscurity into the dream.

-Pink Floyd, "Sheep", Animals



I still prefer the original lyric of "raving and drooling we feel on his neck..."

[Woofer]

Bleating and babbling we fell on his neck with a scream.
Wave upon wave of demented avengers
march cheerfully out of obscurity into the dream.

-Pink Floyd, "Sheep", Animals



I still prefer the original lyric of "raving and drooling we feel on his neck..."

I'm torn because I like the image of raving and drooling, but I love the alliteration in bleating and babbling.


<---little old lady got mutilated late last night

[cozener]

All I have to say is that I would have missed out on some great friendships and learning experiences if I'd limited my opinion of a person to their political affiliation.

I'm definitely better off for it, and I wish more people would do that....

and this is something thats always frustrated me about my wife's attitude. Besides, how boring would it be to agree with everyone all the time? Some of the best discussions I have are the political discussions I have with my republican friends. Otherwise you're just kinda preachin' to the choir.

[theBeamisHome]

oh yay! i forgot you were gonna be making this thread Matt. i went to NC State for two years and one of my very good friends was a Republican... i'm sure she still is i just don't see or talk to her anymore :(... anyways we really just didn't talk politics.
i think the problem is with the labels and the stereotypes. for example, you probably wouldn't dislike a person because they disagreed with you on an issue, like the fact that women should be able to control what they do with their body... but when you throw the labels "pro-choice" and "pro-life" on the issue that's when it turns ugly. because the parties have labels it creates this hate issue. why can't they just give their positions on the issues and let the people decide from there? why does there even need to be a party?

something else that irritates me is people that vote solely on one issue.. it may be hypocritical of me to say so but it's true. my cousin's make or break issue when it comes to voting is abortion.. and i'm thinking... with all the important things that actually have to do with running the f'n country WHY would abortion be your make or break issue??? But, i have yet to bring this up to her and i probably won't to keep the peace.

and i think Brice is right. they all see us as the sheep, blindly following them... it's not like they actually talk about anything anyway... i'm on both candidates websites right now trying to figure out their education plans.... *sigh*

[Matt]

I totally agree Beam. Its like you said, you wouldn't do it but you don't want to interfere with someone else's right if they want to (or need to). That is a complex stance that I agree with. Seeing as I'm a man...I consider it very much out of my hands. Women will ALWAYS get abortions, we either do it clean, or we do it dirty imo.

I feel pretty much the same about prostitution and teenage sex. In that it's going to happen.

Voting on one issue makes no sense to me. Especially something like abortion which is not something any President can change. It is part of the Consitution now and overturning it would take the SC. Sure, the President can choose who goes in but that is a far cry from overturning an ammendment to the US Constitution.

People should be worried about the things a President does have some control over. Troops and the budget.

[jayson]

Especially something like abortion which is not something any President can change. It is part of the Consitution now and overturning it would take the SC. Sure, the President can choose who goes in but that is a far cry from overturning an ammendment to the US Constitution.

People should be worried about the things a President does have some control over. Troops and the budget.

I agree with both of you that "one issue" voting is disturbing.

However, I would suggest that the next President or the one after that could have a little more influence with the abortion issue than you give him/her credit for.

First, there is no amendment making abortion legal. It is solely because of the Roe v Wade court decision that abortion is legal. Therefore it would take only a contrary verdict by the Court to overturn this and then abortion could easily be made illegal.

One of the next two Presidents will get several nominations to the Supreme Court (which is already within one vote either way). Additionally, the President selects the Solicitor General who decides which cases the Court hears. Hypothetically, a President could make two nominations which will swing the court towards overturning Roe v Wade and then a Solicitor General can bring a case which challenges it, and it is easy to see how it could happen. It's not that difficult to see it happening.

[Matt]

It's just wikipedia, for context.


Roe v. Wade, 410 U.S. 113 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Case_citation) (1973) is a controversial United States Supreme Court (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supreme_Court_of_the_United_States) case that resulted in a landmark decision (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Landmark_decision) regarding abortion (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abortion).[1] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roe_v._Wade#cite_note-Roe-0) According to the Roe decision, most laws against abortion in the United States (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abortion_in_the_United_States) violated a constitutional right (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Constitution) to privacy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Privacy) under the Due Process Clause (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Due_Process_Clause) of the Fourteenth Amendment (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fourteenth_Amendment_to_the_United_States_Constitu tion). The decision overturned all state (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_law) and federal (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_law) laws outlawing or restricting abortion that were inconsistent with its holdings (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holding). Roe v. Wade is one of the most controversial and politically significant cases in U.S. Supreme Court history. Its lesser-known companion case, Doe v. Bolton (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doe_v._Bolton), was decided at the same time.[2] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roe_v._Wade#cite_note-Doe-1)
So technically you are correct. It was a ruling that upheld the Constitution, sorry about the misinformation.


But, I do not believe (in any way shape or form) that the SC would first overturn it and second that the states would not then turn around and re legalize it under their own state laws--there are plenty of ways to get that done. I understand Palin is very much against abortion but she has said public ally that she has no intention of trying to get RvW overturned.


I think Beam is correct. This is not an issue that will hit the national stage anytime soon regardless of who is put into the White House. It just can't be done, the people won't let it happen (imo). There are always going to be challenges that include more or lesser versions of it though.



Only in rape..how late term? things like that


There are people on both sides trying their best to increase or decrease the rules around a womans right to have an abortion and that will go on forever.

[Ves'Ka Gan]

I totally agree Beam. Its like you said, you wouldn't do it but you don't want to interfere with someone else's right if they want to (or need to). That is a complex stance that I agree with. Seeing as I'm a man...I consider it very much out of my hands. Women will ALWAYS get abortions, we either do it clean, or we do it dirty imo.

I feel pretty much the same about prostitution and teenage sex. In that it's going to happen.

Voting on one issue makes no sense to me. Especially something like abortion which is not something any President can change. It is part of the Consitution now and overturning it would take the SC. Sure, the President can choose who goes in but that is a far cry from overturning an ammendment to the US Constitution.

People should be worried about the things a President does have some control over. Troops and the budget.

Exactly why I wouldn't vote to illegalize it. I would rather deal with one death per abortion than two, and back-alley abortions in trailers, coat hangers and other "at-home" versions put the mother at a greater risk for serious complication, leading to infection, death, etc.

[Woofer]

Well, I hope I don't alienate anyone here, but I feel that I must speak out this time.

I am passionate about not having a child - so much so that I petitioned to have my tubes tied starting at age 18 (and continuing until they finally performed the procedure when I was 30). Since I am adopted, I have always held that I would adopt if I ever decided to have a child. Wanting a child was definitely a deal-breaker for any serious relationship. Until I had my tubes tied, I took extreme measures to ensure that I did not get pregnant, e.g. I used at least 2 methods of birth control at all times.

It should be my right to choose should the (highly, highly unlikely) situation ever occur, and I resent anyone who tries to tell me otherwise. This does not mean I do not respect other people's opinions, only that I do not appreciate having those opinions forced on me. In fact, most of my friends do not feel the same way that I do, but we have discussed why each of us feels the way we do and we are mature enough to respect our differing opinions.

My intent with this post was not to offend anyone but to explain why abortion rights may be the most important issue of all for some people.

:grouphug:

[Matt]

I agree with you Woofer, I do not think anyone should stand in the way of a woman's right to choose.

I also believe there is no way this decision will ever be overturned. Our nation would not stand for it and anyone who tried would be ran out of town on a rail. IMO of course.

:grouphug:

[MrQuint]

I agree with you Woofer, I do not think anyone should stand in the way of a woman's right to choose.



Especially a man

[lead dealer]

As I am so fond of telling my airmen, there are no stupid ideas, just stupid people that don't validate them.

The media has their own agenda, have watched the clinton news network (deadfully the only channel I get on a gov't instalation), Pmsnbc and fox news and cotten three diffrent winners on the debates! I watche the debates, I would like to make my own assumptions and opinions, thankee si!! The same channels that are forcasting an oboma win were the same forcasting a Carry win 4 years ago, with the same fanatisum!! If the medias job was to polorize this formerly great country of mine. MISSION ACOMPLISHED!!
Speaking of mision accomplished, Iraq....
Yep the 300 lb Kantoi with a ball bat and Baretta....
We are suceeding, contrary to what you see on the news. the Iraqis will be running things in a few years. Hell well ahead of the Germans and the Japoneese, we still have bases in there countries. We let them run themselvs in the mid 1950's, almost 10 years of occupation.... I should know about Iraq, been there twice.
Afganistan: The Greeks could not hold it, nor the british and they owned most of the world at one time! The russians could not ither. We (the us and nato) are doing rather well for ourselves. We have been spoiled by 20 years of Grenadas, panamas and kosovos... This will take a little longer. Fighting a war against an army that dose not exist.

Personally I am a little leery of a man that can wip a croud of germans into a frenzy....

I am a tragicaly pale, concervative, christian,Gun collecting Member of the national Guard and law enforcement. Who can not spell to save his soul!!

And This Guy Scares ME!!



Pray for our country, pray that they will be able to think for themselfs.



OH DISCORIA!!!!

[jayson]

Personally I am a little leery of a man that can wip a croud of germans into a frenzy....

I'd like to hear an explanation of this. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt because you are a new poster and I don't know you, but I am not sure how to interpret that statement and respectfully request that you clarify.

[Woofer]

As I am so fond of telling my airmen, there are no stupid ideas, just stupid people that don't validate them.

I'm not sure what you mean unless you are trying to say that people don't check their facts. Or are you implying that people who do not believe/think the way that you do are idiots?


The media has their own agenda, <snip> If the medias job was to polorize this formerly great country of mine. MISSION ACOMPLISHED!!

I think that the politicians and their "If you aren't with us/don't agree with us, then you hate America/support terrorism" soundbites do a much better job of polarizing the country than the talking heads on CNN.



Personally I am a little leery of a man that can wip a croud of germans into a frenzy....

What R_of_G said.



I am a tragicaly pale, concervative, christian,Gun collecting Member of the national Guard and law enforcement.

And This Guy Scares ME!!

Four more years of the same scares me.


Pray for our country, pray that they will be able to think for themselfs.

Well, as I am not religious, I will not be praying. However, I would like to point out that someone having an opinion that differs from yours does not mean that person is not thinking for his- or herself. It simply means he or she has come to a different conclusion than you did.

[Matt]

I agree--our discussion on this board is a reflection of how the country should be.

No one is unpatriotic, no one is sheep.

I think its a good idea that we stay away from derogatory terms and accusations that who do not agree with us are obviously stupid. That goes for both sides.

Politicians and the media love to polarize us, it makes money and power. Its happening on both sides and we have a responsibility not to allow it.

[MrQuint]

Personally I am a little leery of a man that can wip a croud of germans into a frenzy....

I'd like to hear an explanation of this. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt because you are a new poster and I don't know you, but I am not sure how to interpret that statement and respectfully request that you clarify.

Hitler was successful in doing so by saying it was the germans christian duty. He also referenced Martin Luther of years past, who did his christian duty by burning down the houses of jews.
Now, history shows that Hitler's agenda clearly wasn't "god" motivated, but he used god to convince the masses.

[jayson]

Personally I am a little leery of a man that can wip a croud of germans into a frenzy....

I'd like to hear an explanation of this. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt because you are a new poster and I don't know you, but I am not sure how to interpret that statement and respectfully request that you clarify.

Hitler was successful in doing so by saying it was the germans christian duty. He also referenced Martin Luther of years past, who did his christian duty by burning down the houses of jews.
Now, history shows that Hitler's agenda clearly wasn't "god" motivated, but he used god to convince the masses.

Believe me, I get that part of it. My question was exactly what lead dealer meant by his statement. I am sure he wasn't talking about Hitler since this thread is about the current state of American politics and to my knowledge, only one of the two current presidential candidates has addressed a large crowd in Germany. I hesitate to say anymore because I would like to know what the person who posted the statement meant by it before I address it.

[Brice]

As I am so fond of telling my airmen, there are no stupid ideas, just stupid people that don't validate them.

I beg to differ...there are LOTS of stupid ( and dangerous) ideas; and stupid people follow along with them without thinking.


The media has their own agenda, have watched the clinton news network (deadfully the only channel I get on a gov't instalation), Pmsnbc and fox news and cotten three diffrent winners on the debates! I watche the debates, I would like to make my own assumptions and opinions, thankee si!! The same channels that are forcasting an oboma win were the same forcasting a Carry win 4 years ago, with the same fanatisum!! If the medias job was to polorize this formerly great country of mine. MISSION ACOMPLISHED!!

This country to my knowledge has always been polarized. Does the media help to do this? Certainly! This aside I think I agree with Woofer on this one.



Speaking of mision accomplished, Iraq....

That depends on what you were told the mission was.


We are suceeding, contrary to what you see on the news.

Wouldn't that depend on how you define success? On what our goals there are? And if we are succeeding at what cost?



Afganistan: The Greeks could not hold it, nor the british and they owned most of the world at one time! The russians could not ither. We (the us and nato) are doing rather well for ourselves. We have been spoiled by 20 years of Grenadas, panamas and kosovos... This will take a little longer. Fighting a war against an army that dose not exist.

If they don't exist I'd suggest they are not our enemies. Perhaps you meant we don't know who they are? :orely: As for Afghanistan didn't those other countries hold it substantially longer than us? And can we really define what we're doing there "holding it"?


Personally I am a little leery of a man that can wip a croud of germans into a frenzy....

I am as interested by your intent by this statement as the others seem to be.




And This Guy Scares ME!!

Which guy? Obama? They both scare me. They all do.




Pray for our country, pray that they will be able to think for themselfs.



OH DISCORIA!!!!

You presume people don't think for themselves. Maybe they do and just arrived at different conclusions then you.

[theBeamisHome]

wow.... the nationalism around here... geesh.

[Brice]

wow.... the nationalism around here... geesh.


Nazionalism? :orely: What Nazionalism?

[theBeamisHome]

:rofl:
i mean do we still have something against Germans?? i'm gonna reserve judgment also until the lead dealer responds...

*taps toe* I'm waitin Tails....

i know someone will get that.

[jayson]

i mean do we still have something against Germans??

That's pretty much my question as well.

[Jean]

i mean do we still have something against Germans??
well, I hope "we" don't - even we don't, who lost more than 30 million people in World War 2, of which only 17 million were soldiers - the rest were civilians. We have a lot against nazis and fascists of all kinds, but certainly not against Germans, or Japanese, or Italians, or any of their allies, like, say, Hungarians or Yougoslaves; people living today do not have to answer for the crimes of people who lived 60 years ago - provided they don't share their ideas; but if they do, what difference does it make where they live or what blood they have in their veins? Nazis and fascists may be in any country, even historically anti-fascist.

With all that in view, I would politely ask to refrain from using such words as "Krauts" in the future.

[Brice]

i mean do we still have something against Germans??
well, I hope "we" don't - even we don't, who lost more than 30 million people in World War 2, of which only 17 million were soldiers - the rest were civilians. We have a lot against nazis and fascists of all kinds, but certainly not against Germans, or Japanese, or Italians, or any of their allies, like, say, Hungarians or Yougoslaves; people living today do not have to answer for the crimes of people who lived 60 years ago - provided they don't share their ideas; but if they do, what difference does it make where they live or what blood they have in their veins? Nazis and fascists may be in any country, even historically anti-fascist.

With all that in view, I would politely ask to refrain from using such words as "Krauts" in the future.

I agree, that is not anti-fascist or anti-nazi. That is purely rascist.

[theBeamisHome]

i mean do we still have something against Germans??
well, I hope "we" don't - even we don't, who lost more than 30 million people in World War 2, of which only 17 million were soldiers - the rest were civilians. We have a lot against nazis and fascists of all kinds, but certainly not against Germans, or Japanese, or Italians, or any of their allies, like, say, Hungarians or Yougoslaves; people living today do not have to answer for the crimes of people who lived 60 years ago - provided they don't share their ideas; but if they do, what difference does it make where they live or what blood they have in their veins? Nazis and fascists may be in any country, even historically anti-fascist.

With all that in view, I would politely ask to refrain from using such words as "Krauts" in the future.

thank you Jean. it makes no sense to have anything against those people. i just can't even fathom it. that would be like me hating all WASPs because of slavery.... and i'm sure that people will argue that some do, but believe me it's more of a minority than you think that feel that way.

[Matt]

This is the reason the thread is here, to try and teach people the way.

There is no reason for us to hate

[lead dealer]

Giving my personal opinion, the man gives a good speech. Almost a little too good. Giving a grandiose speech in Germany wile running for president in the united states seems a little odd to me. You are all reading a little to much into this

I am a listener and analyzer.

The ideas are only dumb if you act on them...

I am not calling anyone unpatriotic, Just don't swallow everything you hear in the news, they get things wrong. And most of our attachments with the news ends when you turn off the television or log off of yahoo. Think, dose it sound too good to be true? Sounds a little too bad? Ever wonder why a story about a mass killing in the northern Iraq city of Mosul has the tag line (where report is filed) of Baghdad? The AP has an office there.....

Are we getting the whole story?


My fellow travelers, I will stay away from politics for all of our benefits....



"I kill with my heart"

[Matt]

You don't have to stay out of it, we love different perspectives.

Its just a touchy subject and we all go very far to make sure we stay respectful to each other so we can continue the interesting discussion.

[Brice]

Absolutely! :)

[theBeamisHome]

yup :thumbsup:
which is why we asked for clarification...

[lead dealer]

Sorry all.

We have all been deluged by 24/7 politics for the last few months. I think it is safe to say that we as a country are getting rather tired of it. I really am waiting for it to be over!!!

On the dright side it did get britney spheres and the other "celubutards" (robot chicken term) out of the spotlight.

Damm catch 22!!!

No harm done fellow travelers, part of the game...

"I kill with my heart"

[jayson]

Lead dealer, I definitely appreciate the clarification. Like the others, I would encourage you to continue posting your thoughts in the political threads. You obviously have a unique perspective with your military experience. I can't say I agree with much of what you've said, but I appreciate your right to say it and hope you continue to do so.

[theBeamisHome]

yay! :grouphug:

my dad is in the Army, my bf is in the Air Force... i'm considering doing the same, but idk if i'd be able to teach.... anyways with my experience with the military i've seen differing opinions from sai lead dealer's... so everyone is individual in every group.. and we are definitely glad for more opinions.... just don't expect to not be challenged :lol:

[lead dealer]

Well that was pretty much it, I put the soap box away...

No good fight is ever uncontested!

Thanks Guys!!

"I kill with my heart"

[Daghain]

Well, I hope I don't alienate anyone here, but I feel that I must speak out this time.

I am passionate about not having a child - so much so that I petitioned to have my tubes tied starting at age 18 (and continuing until they finally performed the procedure when I was 30). Since I am adopted, I have always held that I would adopt if I ever decided to have a child. Wanting a child was definitely a deal-breaker for any serious relationship. Until I had my tubes tied, I took extreme measures to ensure that I did not get pregnant, e.g. I used at least 2 methods of birth control at all times.

It should be my right to choose should the (highly, highly unlikely) situation ever occur, and I resent anyone who tries to tell me otherwise. This does not mean I do not respect other people's opinions, only that I do not appreciate having those opinions forced on me. In fact, most of my friends do not feel the same way that I do, but we have discussed why each of us feels the way we do and we are mature enough to respect our differing opinions.

My intent with this post was not to offend anyone but to explain why abortion rights may be the most important issue of all for some people.

:grouphug:

*high fives Woofer*

I'm right there with you, sister!

The way I see it, Roe v. Wade IS going to get challenged, and frankly I'm starting to get a little worried about it. It's the first step on that slippery slope that leads back to women being barefoot and pregnant and treated as second-class citizens. Yes, I know this is 2008 and not 1958 and we'll likely never go all the way back to those kinds of gender roles, but I'm against anything that removes my ability to make a personal choice about MY OWN BODY. And yes, women will always find a way to have abortions, but I don't think that's a good reason to just shrug our shoulders and act like this is a minor issue. It's a very big issue, and while I also don't necessarily agree with one issue voting, this particular issue WILL disqualify a candidate for me. They can SAY whatever they want about whether or not they'll try to overturn it, but once in office I suspect a pro-life candidate is going to try and push as much of that agenda as possible. And I cannot in good conscience stand by and allow that to happen.

/soapbox

[Matt]

You guys have every right to the opinion for sure.

I think we have moved into a place in human history that will not allow that kind of infringement on a human beings rights--but I could be wrong.

And like I said, being against abortion and wanting to overturn RvW are two really different things. But I think my point is proven by the strong and courageous women in this very thread who will not allow their rights to be taken from them ever.

[Daghain]

:clap:

You said it, brother. My whole point is that it starts out as one little thing, then one more little thing, then another, then another, and the next thing you know you wake up one morning and realize you've lost a whole bunch of rights. I prefer personal responsibility rather than "the government knows what's good for me" - it doesn't.

[Woofer]

The government can't even puzzle out what's good for itself, so there's no way it can puzzle out what good for each of its citizens (bless it's collective heart).

[lead dealer]

I was brought up pro life in the catiolic curch, As I have aged I have come to the inaniable truth. I am a man, who am I to tell a woman what she can do with her body? Her body her choice....

Be carefull comrades big brother is listining......

Let the Gov't do it! these are the people that spend 3.5 mill on a toilet seat! Will pay for a new engine, but not an oil change!

[Ves'Ka Gan]

yay! :grouphug:

my dad is in the Army, my bf is in the Air Force... i'm considering doing the same, but idk if i'd be able to teach.... anyways with my experience with the military i've seen differing opinions from sai lead dealer's... so everyone is individual in every group.. and we are definitely glad for more opinions.... just don't expect to not be challenged :lol:

Yup! And I did get your Sonic reference, Beam!

For those wondering what the "definition" of success in Iraq might be--most of us in the military view the fact that the majority of our large bases in Iraq are now being completely run by the Iraqis, as a success. We were able to take out Saddam and give the country back to the Iraqis--granted there is still work to do. I personally believe that work *can* be done on a timeline...but that's a different part of this discussion completely 9or a different discussion all together).


Lead Dealer--I am curious--what country are you in where you only get CNN?

[theBeamisHome]

yay! :grouphug:

my dad is in the Army, my bf is in the Air Force... i'm considering doing the same, but idk if i'd be able to teach.... anyways with my experience with the military i've seen differing opinions from sai lead dealer's... so everyone is individual in every group.. and we are definitely glad for more opinions.... just don't expect to not be challenged :lol:

Yup! And I did get your Sonic reference, Beam! </snip>



yay! i knew someone would have to :couple:

[Jon]

How many G. Bush shows/cartoons and now a movie?

[Daghain]

I know.

Little Bush was pretty freaking hilarious, though.

[jayson]

I don't think it's that unusual. Love him or hate him, the man has made an impact on our culture.

Interestingly, unlike the tv shows which are satirical and highlight his shortcomings (of which there are enough for multiple shows) the Oliver Stone film reputedly takes a fairly even-handed approach to presenting the man honestly. Most reviews I've read seem to think that Stone was pretty fair in his portrayal (and that Josh Brolin is excellent as Bush).

Personally, I won't see it. Eight years of the real thing have been bad enough, I don't need to spend three hours with a fake GWB.

[Brice]

Stone made a George Bush movie?

[jayson]

Yes. It's called "W".

[Brice]

I actually may have to check it out as I usually like Stone's movies.

[jayson]

I'd definitely be interested in your opinion so please let me know if you see it.

[Brice]

I certainly will.

[lead dealer]

Dear sir,

The country, alas...is ours, but the United states Air force has the cable (the old joke is true) down to just the Clinton News Network... Not the thing to keep the SF troops happy.....

"I kill with my heart"

[Ves'Ka Gan]

On base in general or just at work? (What base are you at btw maybe I know it?)

[lead dealer]

I beleive it is air force wide. Absolutely drives me insane!!:beat: I doubt you would know it, heck I did not know where it was untill I enlisted! Back doing the AGR thing. Sitting in lovely n/w ohio watching the alert birds not move......

" I kill with my heart"

[The Lady of Shadows]

wow. having been from around there the only thing i was aware of is the 179th airlift wing of the ohio air national guard at the mansfield lahm airport in north-central ohio. but they don't have alert birds, only the c-130 hercules. and i thought they were primarily used to provide operations, logistics, and medical professionals for theatre airlift and mission support. but that's probably changed in the last year or so, right?

man, you must be bored as hell sitting in mansfield - there's nothing to do out there!

[lead dealer]

Si

Nope the fighter unit out of toledo, the one the brack boogieman did not shut down. We have been a fighter (ground attack/ multi roal) since 1955. We got the alert mision from the brack realighment. Bad for MI. Good for us.

Toledo slightly better than mansfeild....

Still boaring as all..................

But we have a filterd internet connection:pirate:

yep, planes still there.........


"I kill with my heart"

[Ves'Ka Gan]

That's odd. The AF Base I work(ed) on had full cable, even in the "dorms". Only time they regulated what was on tv was in the public areas.

[theBeamisHome]

Nigel's dorm doesn't have cable <_< but some of the newer ones do.. something about contracts with the people that did the buildings or something.. ugh


whoa we are off topic.

[lead dealer]

:orely: Welcome to the kinder and gentler air force... No dorms here, only work areas. Someone in the dreaded "upper echolon" realized that troops (mainly the wrench turning tec's) are vastly less productive when there is a televion on a non news channel. So, bam: the misguided usaf comm personnel received a derective to restrict cable in all base areas, except for billieting/ base housing. That service is provided by a 3rd party contractor. I am happy though, we now just get the "pentogon" channel. I no longer have to listen to slanted election covrage 24/7. Just other crap.... Now if you will excuse me, I have to figure out how to rig rabit ears up from a vheicle antena and 5 feet of commo wire.....