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Letti
06-02-2007, 08:33 AM
This question always makes me think.. I was about 12 when I started to read this series. First I would say NO it's not a good book children and maybe under 16 or 15 it's useless to start to read it.
But as I am thinking of it.. in this running world where children have no real heroes and they can hear nasty words from everywhere.. and there are so many children out there who (because of different good and bad reasons) have to get serious quite early I say... I have changed my mind a little bit.
I can't say it's a bad book for them... but is it good? I don't really know.

I am listening to you guys.

The_Nameless
06-02-2007, 11:58 AM
I'd wait until they were at least 13, unless they were mature for their age, but no younger than 12.

I do not say this because of the foul language and graphic violence (children can see this at any time in any television show, movie, or internet site), but because of the message it is trying to put out there.

I'm not sure a child would be able to understand and grasp the message of TDT. Even at thirteen some children would struggle, but I feel with the proper help and explanations, they'd be able to get through it fine.

MonteGss
06-02-2007, 12:03 PM
I'd wait until they were at least 13, unless they were mature for their age, but no younger than 12.

I do not say this because of the foul language and graphic violence (children can see this at any time in any television show, movie, or internet site), but because of the message it is trying to put out there.

I'm not sure a child would be able to understand and grasp the message of TDT. Even at thirteen some children would struggle, but I feel with the proper help and explanations, they'd be able to get through it fine.

This is pretty much how I feel Nameless. You said it better than I was going to. I will say though that any book that a child reads is a good book, especially at 12 or 13.

Daghain
06-02-2007, 01:18 PM
I think it depends on the kid. I was an advanced reader, so I could probably have started around 10 or 11. But, I think if you're a bit older, the message makes more sense.

Frunobulax
06-02-2007, 06:21 PM
Daghain, good point. If I were speaking for myself, I'd say hand it to the kid at age 8 or 9. But if it's for the so-called 'average' kid, wait until 13, 14 earliest.

B Rag
06-02-2007, 08:14 PM
I'd say no, because of the graphic nature of it. Sure, they can see it other places, but that doesn't make it okay.

Frunobulax
06-02-2007, 08:32 PM
Well, reading violence is one thing. Seeing it is another. Imitating behaviour is easier when it was acted out and not scripted in a dramatic setting.

Brice
06-02-2007, 11:13 PM
Personally, I wouldn't mind a child of mine reading it at any age. While it's true some of the concepts might be a bit big for a child's mind they may just find their way to the concepts because of the book. Even if they don't understand it all they are reading and that's always a good thing by my thinking.

Darkthoughts
06-03-2007, 06:19 AM
I think I read my first King book around 12 (Christine) - I'd say thats a reasonable age to try and tackle a series like DT.

I wouldn't give it to a younger child because I don't think they'd have the ability/experience to cope with the anxiety they might feel from reading some of the more violent, graphic or frightening parts - and from experience I can say its preferable not to have to wake up at 3am because your kids' having nightmares :D

sarajean
06-03-2007, 09:45 AM
i read the gunslinger for the first time at the age of nine. at that time, i was already reading at a 15.5 level. (junior at university, halfway through the year.) i didn't have a hard time with it. as far as the concepts that are in it go, i may not have understood everything, but i was in my 20s when it was finished...i had plenty of time to re-read and fully grasp everything.

would i give it to my sons at such a young age? probably not. but then, i wouldn't let my oldest watch sid and nancy with me, either (i watched it at a very young age with my dad). it's one of the things i'm doing differently with my kids.

Daghain
06-03-2007, 07:48 PM
I don't have kids, so while I sympathise with those who had to get up at 2am because of nightmares, I have to say again it depends on the kid.

I don't give my parents credit for being exceptionally understanding or intelligent when it came to books - my father worked in a blue collar job at GM, and probably barely read the paper, much less anything else. My mother read to us as kids, Dr. Seuss, etc., but she really never bothered to look at what we were reading when we got older. i read The Thorn Birds when I was 12 (it was on the bookshelf; my mother didn't realize I'd read it until it was too late lol) but I "got" the majority of it. I was reading Vonnegut for fun in 10th grade (I reread him when I was older, and got a totally different meaning out of it - I think that's the "fun" of going back to books when you're older - you get a totally different perspective) and my first SK book was The Shining at the age of 13. Scared the hell out of me, and I ran down to the bookstore to see what else he had written. :D

My sister, 1 1/2 years younger, had nightmares for months after being taken to see Jaws. She still can't stand scary movies. Also, she was never a big reader, and sticks to Danielle Steele novels when she does read. Nothing wrong with that; but proof that two kids that have the same parents and grow up in the same house can be completely different.

So yeah, depends on the kid. Personally, in some alternate universe where I had a kid, I would let him/her read whatever I had in the house. I would like to think that I would be a cool enough parent to be able to explain anything the kid might ask me about (although I never did this with my parents; I suspected they wouldn't "get" it).

Then again, I love reading so much I got a degree in English Lit, so I love a good book discussion!

Erin
06-03-2007, 07:57 PM
I agree with what most people above said. I think it totally depends on the child as one can be much more advanced at certain ages than others. But overall, I'd say about 12 or so is a good age to start something like the Dark Tower.

Frunobulax
06-03-2007, 08:37 PM
i read the gunslinger for the first time at the age of nine. at that time, i was already reading at a 15.5 level. (junior at university, halfway through the year.)
. . .
Yeah--I was the same way level-wise. Maybe that could be the basis of my bias.

sai delgado
06-04-2007, 05:39 AM
it definately depends on how advanced they are at reading, as there will be some who will understand dt whereas there will be many who won't.
If the dt series was condensed into a really simple form it would make an excellent fairy tale type story for really young children!

Jean
06-04-2007, 05:54 AM
I agree with all those who think there can't be no age limit defined once and forever for all children; and I especially agree with Brice that even if a child doesn't understand now what he will understand later, something will remain, and if the book is good, the something will be good, too. I read all kinds of book since before the age of 3, and, re-reading them as a grownup, was usually surprised to find out they were very different from they seemed to be when I read them as a child; but the residue of imagery, emotions, even ideas, and some general cultural context was what remained from those first readings, and in essence was true.

Matt
06-04-2007, 06:37 AM
When I was in my 10-teens we were expected to read things like "The Outsiders". I think the level of violence in books like those and "Lord of the Flies" is about on par with the series.

Meaning, hell yeah, let your kid read them if they want to. A kid wanting to tackle something like what I have listed above at the age of nine or ten should be encouraged imo.

**can't believe how many people he comes across these days who simply don't read** <_<

Daghain
06-04-2007, 07:08 AM
Yeah, I would be happy a kid was reading anything anymore.

Hannah
06-04-2007, 07:33 AM
I'd have to agree with everyone who has already said that it agrees on the kid, their reading level, and their maturity.

I would certainly not give the series to my eight year old niece, who still has trouble reading and thinks it's funny to say "weinie". And I certainly couldn't see giving the series to Paris anytime soon, because I wouldn't want to answer questions about certain things in the series, like Detta's foul mouth {Mommy whats a white candlestick?} or the sexual aspects. I'd say a good age for any kid would be around 12-13, if they're very mature, and 15-16 if they're at a "normal" maturity level.

Frunobulax
06-05-2007, 08:57 AM
. . .
Mommy whats a white candlestick?
. . .
:rofl:

ZoNeSeeK
06-06-2007, 10:48 PM
I think some of the adult interactions in the series would be difficult for a 10-12 year old to understand - perhaps it wouldnt be damaging, but it would muddy the experience I guess.

Brice
06-07-2007, 09:33 AM
I wouldn't necessarily give the book to a young child but, I also wouldn't tell a child of any age they couldn't/shouldn't read it or any other book. I believe in very little (if any) censorship with children personally and if they are reading I always view that as a good thing. As for nightmares they will have those any way. Books or movies don't really cause those at all I don't think. A child's very vivid imaginations cause those. I'd be more likely to be concerned with a movie's visual representations of sex or violence than anything in any book. I think they are quite capable of deciding for them selves what they can deal with. If my (hypothetical) child had a question I would answer it without exception. With that said I'd be very grateful if the kid asked:
Originally Posted by Hannah


Mommy whats a white candlestick?

Cause then it would be (hypothetical) Mommy's question to answer. :lol:
. . .

Matt
06-07-2007, 09:35 AM
I have always been very clear with this stuff..."its a nickname for a penis honey" :lol:

"What's a penis?"

"A mans sexual reproduction organ"

:lol:

But my 18 year old is having a baby so it might not be the best parenting skill.

Brice
06-07-2007, 09:46 AM
I have always been very clear with this stuff..."its a nickname for a penis honey" :lol:

"What's a penis?"

"A mans sexual reproduction organ"

:lol:

But my 18 year old is having a baby so it might not be the best parenting skill.


I don't think it's a bad one at all personally. I believe in answering a question as honestly and straightforward as possible.

Daghain
06-07-2007, 12:19 PM
Me too. I hate it when people teach kids cutesy names for body parts.

Hannah
06-07-2007, 02:13 PM
I think there's a fine line here. I would agree with Brice though, that I'd be more worried about my kid viewing inappropriate material rather than reading it. I think visuals can stick with you so much longer than the written word. Besides, if the kid has no idea what a "white candlestick" is, and has never actually seen a penis, then they can't really visualize... so maybe they just wouldn't quite understand what they were reading... whereas a visual representation of a penis in a movie, even if seen for a short time, would have so much more of an impact on someone, especially a child.

Just on a side note: Paris thinks penises grow out of the butt. I find it hard to explain otherwise to her, and she refuses to believe me. She's even taken to calling it a "butt weinie". :doh:

Matt
06-07-2007, 02:46 PM
I love it when Hannah talks penii :blush:

But I do agree, obviously Paris is way too young for this kind of stuff. I wouldn't try to explain a penis to a kid her age for sure.

Sometimes I can't even remember them being that young. :lol:

Frunobulax
06-07-2007, 04:04 PM
Butt weenie? Ouch!

OchrisO
06-07-2007, 04:45 PM
I suppose it depends on how much the child has been exposed to that sort of stuff, and how much you want them to be exposed. I grew up in the early 80s, when sex was everywhere. My parents were always very open about the stuff, and didn't try to demonize it or hide it from me. I had watched movies like Porky's and a million other 80s comedies taht deal with sex a lot by the time I was 7 or so, and my mom was always quite honest and open when I asked her stuff. She never tried to control what I read or saw, and I probably thumbed through my first Playboy by age 8 or so. I men, it's not like tehy handed them to me, but they were around, and I didn't get punished for it when i was caught. *shrug* I figure I turned out alright. Violence worries me more than sex as far as children exposure these days, but even that is ok with proper and informative parenting.

As for the other stuff in the books, i'd imagine it is ok. I tried to read The Dark Tower when I was 10-ish because I liked the cover art, but at the time I really couldn't get into it. I'm not sure why, though. That was a long time ago. I probably drank those braincells away. :)

Baradin
06-07-2007, 05:49 PM
I think it depends on the child and on the parents.

I started reading King (The Stand) at 6 years old, and got into IT shortly thereafter. Now granted thats REALLY early but I always have been a BIG reader. I say let the kid of any age attempt it and if they can get thru it power to them. Sure I had some nightmares and still to this day avoid all sewer grates, but I wouldn't trade any of that in for the world.

Daghain
06-07-2007, 08:50 PM
OMG Hannah I am laughing so hard my sides hurt! Where do kids come up with this stuff???

Of course, I was a very "literal" child. I was raised Catholic, and when I was little my mother told me the Tabernacle was the house of God. Well, of course I thought God was some really, really small person that lived in that little box. I even envisioned a whole nice set of early 70's furniture for Him. :rofl:

Frunobulax
06-07-2007, 08:55 PM
I can see God with shag carpeting, Brady Bunch-style clothes, and paisley curtains.

Daghain
06-07-2007, 08:58 PM
Yanno, that was kind of it. I kind of pictured white mod furniture, a nice shag rug, (hey, it was the 70's, sue me) and some nice mod art on the walls.

I was a really progressive seven-year-old. :D

Frunobulax
06-07-2007, 09:11 PM
Warhol prints up as decorations--pretty sweet digs for the Big G.

Daghain
06-07-2007, 09:23 PM
Hey, now THAT would be cool! :) And maybe a nice bar area off to the side - nothing ostentatious, but, yanno, cool. :)

Frunobulax
06-07-2007, 09:25 PM
He can make White Russians and little martinis for Himself.

But I digress....thread hi-jacking....

Daghain
06-07-2007, 09:41 PM
Yep, threadjacking is VERY uncool.

But still funny. :D

Frunobulax
06-07-2007, 10:01 PM
Hehe.

So, the book is good for some kids and also depends on your definition of a child.

Daghain
06-07-2007, 10:21 PM
I guess so. For me, if the kid has a book, ANY book, in his/her hands, I would say absolutely nothing. Hey, at least they're reading. :D

Frunobulax
06-07-2007, 10:36 PM
Aaaaaaamen!

Jean
06-07-2007, 10:42 PM
I think visuals can stick with you so much longer than the written word.
I am not sure. Some kids, just like some grownups, are verbal rather than visual; for example, I hardly remember anything I saw as a kid, but sure do remember almost every word I read. But I agree with the rest.


Besides, if the kid has no idea what a "white candlestick" is, and has never actually seen a penis, then they can't really visualize... so maybe they just wouldn't quite understand what they were reading...

I don't now have my copy of To Kill A Mocking Bird (a student of mine is reading it), but I hope you remember that place where she asks Atticus what rape is, and he explains, and how she reacts. I think that scene was very true, and that's what it clearly shows (I could say the same from my own experience, and that of many friends' kids): as a rule, kids are not at all obsessed with sex; intelligent kids have a clear idea that the world is bigger than what they already know, so there must be something they won't learn till later; kids who already learned some independence would rather deposit their questions for later use than bother their parents with them, especially with what they feel must be adult stuff. For kids, there's enough stuff in every book to keep them interested without getting fixated on the sex; violence in this respect should impress them much more, but any normal book for kids contains its share of violence anyway (pirates and Injuns and princes and paupers).


For me, if the kid has a book, ANY book, in his/her hands, I would say absolutely nothing. Hey, at least they're reading.

Daghain
06-07-2007, 10:50 PM
For kids, there's enough stuff in every book to keep them interested without getting fixated on the sex; violence in this respect should impress them much more, but any normal book for kids contains its share of violence anyway (pirates and Injuns and princes and paupers).

I think you hit the nail right on the head. I remember as a kid reading things that were way over my head, and the occasional sex scene was not particularly interesting to me at the time. No harm, no foul - I just didn't care so much. I was reading the book for the story, not to pick out sex scenes. :)

Frunobulax
06-07-2007, 10:52 PM
Jean always adds amazing insight to things. He did, yet again, hit the nail on the proverbial head.

Daghain
06-07-2007, 11:02 PM
The bear strikes again. :)

Jean
06-07-2007, 11:14 PM
now you have one blushing bear... http://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k291/mishemplushem/Facilitation/bear_wub.gif

the point, however, is that Daghain managed to express in two lines what took me three passages with literary allusions. And that point is indeed worth drawing attention to:


I remember as a kid reading things that were way over my head, and the occasional sex scene was not particularly interesting to me at the time. No harm, no foul - I just didn't care so much. I was reading the book for the story, not to pick out sex scenes.

Daghain
06-08-2007, 07:44 AM
Aww, thanks. But I like your literary allusions too. :)

Hannah
06-08-2007, 08:09 AM
I used to read the Jean Auel series just for the caveman sex. :ninja: I was about ten - twelve or so.

Matt
06-08-2007, 08:23 AM
:rofl:

I was going to say that!!

My 16 year old is reading them now and every now and then I look at here and she's all...

"Jondalar!!"

Its a weird joke, but funny.

Letti
06-09-2007, 07:21 AM
. . .
Mommy whats a white candlestick?
. . .
:rofl:

And the best answer: ask your dad. ;)

As a child I wouldn't have dared to ask such a question because I would have felt there is something wrong with it.
Anyway this world is full or cursed words wherever you see and turn your head you hear them.

Erin
06-11-2007, 12:22 PM
I used to read the Jean Auel series just for the caveman sex. :ninja: I was about ten - twelve or so.

I love those books! All the "peleo-porn" is a super bonus in them.

ZoNeSeeK
06-11-2007, 07:55 PM
Ahaha, thats right - those cavepeoples were all up to date on their sexing :D

-

Probably the only real concern I would have would be with impressionable kids mimicking some of the colourful language. I personally dont have a problem with adults swearing (as long as its not in a completely inappropriate place or directed aggressively at someone) but young kids don't necessarily have the awareness to fully understand the language, or its appropriate use. But on saying this, it would be a good opportunity to teach your kid(s) about appropriate language. Empowering them to be able to read and understand it gives them the opportunity to make an informed decision.

OchrisO
06-11-2007, 08:44 PM
If I ever have a kid, the first thing I am doing is teaching them to swear and flip people off.

Darkthoughts
06-12-2007, 01:58 AM
Ha ha!! I remember when Sam first came out with swear words he'd over heard (around 3yrs old I guess) - he would drop them into regular conversations to see if they got a reaction :D In the end I sat him down and said "Every single one of those words is just a different way of saying something...tell me the words you've heard and I'll tell you what they mean."
Gotta say - I was quite impressed with how many he managed to come up with :lol: At the end of the list I just said, I'd rather you used the words I told you...especially in front of Grandma! And we both had a laugh about it and it broke the taboo really, he wasn't that interested after that.

My husband and I are similarly honest and open about sex with the kids, I've never been asked a question by them that I felt uncomfortable answering.

For me its the "monsters" in the books. As was said on the last page, kids are capable of creating their own monsters to have nightmares about, but thats exactly why I don't think they need to be worrying about someone elses bad guys on top of that, until they've learnt to deal with their own.

Brice
06-12-2007, 06:04 AM
Ahaha, thats right - those cavepeoples were all up to date on their sexing :D

-

Probably the only real concern I would have would be with impressionable kids mimicking some of the colourful language. I personally dont have a problem with adults swearing (as long as its not in a completely inappropriate place or directed aggressively at someone) but young kids don't necessarily have the awareness to fully understand the language, or its appropriate use. But on saying this, it would be a good opportunity to teach your kid(s) about appropriate language. Empowering them to be able to read and understand it gives them the opportunity to make an informed decision.

But what if their informed decision is that they should use language like that in what you would consider inappropriate places? :P

Brice
06-12-2007, 06:10 AM
Ha ha!! I remember when Sam first came out with swear words he'd over heard (around 3yrs old I guess) - he would drop them into regular conversations to see if they got a reaction :D In the end I sat him down and said "Every single one of those words is just a different way of saying something...tell me the words you've heard and I'll tell you what they mean."
Gotta say - I was quite impressed with how many he managed to come up with :lol: At the end of the list I just said, I'd rather you used the words I told you...especially in front of Grandma! And we both had a laugh about it and it broke the taboo really, he wasn't that interested after that.

My husband and I are similarly honest and open about sex with the kids, I've never been asked a question by them that I felt uncomfortable answering.

For me its the "monsters" in the books. As was said on the last page, kids are capable of creating their own monsters to have nightmares about, but thats exactly why I don't think they need to be worrying about someone elses bad guys on top of that, until they've learnt to deal with their own.

I agree with everything you said wholeheartedly, except for the last part. I think children are much more suited to dealing with badness (both real and imaginary) than most adults are.

Jean
06-12-2007, 06:40 AM
I think children are much more suited to dealing with badness (both real and imaginary) than most adults are.
I think the same. I also think that it all works differently for them, and differently for every particular kid. There are things that may deeply scare a kid, while an adult won't even understand what the matter is; the opposite is true, too. As we grow old, we get a little more uniform, because we're longer exposed to education and to culture; we all agree now that Pet Sematary is horribly scary, but how can we tell why a kid is afraid of Mommy's dark-blue dressing gown or the word "abracadabra" or that ice-cream wagon? Their fears may seem unexplicable to us, and that which, in our opinion, must scare them, actually doesn't have to.

Brice
06-12-2007, 07:23 AM
I think children are much more suited to dealing with badness (both real and imaginary) than most adults are.
I think the same. I also think that it all works differently for them, and differently for every particular kid. There are things that may deeply scare a kid, while an adult won't even understand what the matter is; the opposite is true, too. As we grow old, we get a little more uniform, because we're longer exposed to education and to culture; we all agree now that Pet Sematary is horribly scary, but how can we tell why a kid is afraid of Mommy's dark-blue dressing gown or the word "abracadabra" or that ice-cream wagon? Their fears may seem unexplicable to us, and that which, in our opinion, must scare them, actually doesn't have to.

Yup, and I think that part of the reason they deal better is they usually have an openness that our years and experience rob from us. Adults usually try to understand their fears and put them in some kind of framework. Children have no need or use of that. There needn't be a clear rational reason for them to be afraid. They just accept things on their own terms.

Letti
06-15-2007, 08:19 AM
Ha ha!! I remember when Sam first came out with swear words he'd over heard (around 3yrs old I guess) - he would drop them into regular conversations to see if they got a reaction :D In the end I sat him down and said "Every single one of those words is just a different way of saying something...tell me the words you've heard and I'll tell you what they mean."
Gotta say - I was quite impressed with how many he managed to come up with :lol: At the end of the list I just said, I'd rather you used the words I told you...especially in front of Grandma! And we both had a laugh about it and it broke the taboo really, he wasn't that interested after that.

My husband and I are similarly honest and open about sex with the kids, I've never been asked a question by them that I felt uncomfortable answering.

For me its the "monsters" in the books. As was said on the last page, kids are capable of creating their own monsters to have nightmares about, but thats exactly why I don't think they need to be worrying about someone elses bad guys on top of that, until they've learnt to deal with their own.

I agree with everything you said wholeheartedly, except for the last part. I think children are much more suited to dealing with badness (both real and imaginary) than most adults are.

Kids can be incredibly strong..

and fragile at the same time.