The Talisman / Black House

[ZoNeSeeK]

I know these books are definitely up in the favourites for most people that have read them, but for those that may shy away because they are co-written - DON'T!!!

Out of anything else King has written, these use the most Dark Tower themes. Switching between the worlds, breaker prisons and the crimson king all feature along the way, so if you havent had a crack at them, its something you must do!

Which book did people prefer more - the more adventure-based Talisman or the more crime-related Black House?

[OchrisO]

I have read The Talisman and loved it, but for some reason I have never gotten around to reading Black House.

[ZoNeSeeK]

Its good, just a different approach. I preferred Talisman over the two - I could strongly relate to Jack Sawyer as when I read it was only a year or so after my mother had died.

[Jean]

I like about two thirds of Talisman. Especially the Sunlight Home part, which is unforgettable. But after the highest point of the story - Wolf's heroic death - it rapidly went downhill, and the last quarter was hardly readable. I love the whole of Black House, though.

[Darkthoughts]

I'm inclined to agree with Jean. I wasn't sure I'd be into Black House and that Jack would befriend anyone new I'd like as much as Wolf...then Henry Leyden came along...one of my favourite SK characters.ever.

[MonteGss]

I loved them both. I remember reading The Talisman when I was a kid and I enjoyed it so much. I read Black House a few months ago, I think I now prefer that one cuz of its more prevalent DT connections. :)

[Rjeso]

I like the Talisman more, probably because of it's whole 'epic quest' thing that it has going on. Black House is more localized - a good story, but not as adventurous. I'll agree, though, Henry was a frickin' awesome character. I also liked the Thunder Five dudes. :thumbsup:

[Odetta]

THe Talisman was a much better read. I had trouble with reading Black House, I just couldn't get into it.

[Brice]

I loved both but, Black House didn't quite grab me like The Talisman did. It was still a really good book though and I can't wait for the supposed third book in the series(if it ever gets done).

[CRinVA]

I loved 'em both for different reasons - and am looking forward to the third compliation which should really tells us what happened to the wounded Jack once he flipped back to the Territories at the end of Black House!

Each story also had one great supporting character!

No doubt Wolf was one of the best ever uib The Talsiman - gee look at my sig why don't ya!

And Henry Leyden in Blackhouse was simply awesome

[Bethany]

Henry Leyden is probably one of the coolest characters, ever. And grown yp Jack melted my knees.

[Chassit]

I need to re read Talisman and then read Black house...it's been years and years on the firat and never on the second...


XIX

[Matt]

I love them both but listened out of order. Blackhouse first and all of the different references to Talisman made me salivate with anticipation.

In the end, I liked Talisman best. It has a cool kid in it.

[pol]

I loved The Talisman...it has a great feel of adventure, more epic than Black House which was a much different book.

I don't think that the connections to the Tower in The Talisman were intentional, in fact I have read that it was really King's first attempt at toying with concepts that would later riddle the Tower books. Whereas the connections in Black House were obviously intentional, as this book was written specifically to tie in with the Tower. Both books are great, just different feels and the writing style in Black House, particularly the beginning, is a bit hard to get used to.

[VolsToTheWall]

I loved both books, but I prefer The Talisman. I think the fact that I read The Talisman first and really loved it might make me a little biased towards it. Like others have said, I just really loved the sense of adventure in it.

[MonteGss]

I will give props to Talisman for introducing the Twinner idea, which helped me understand pieces of the DT when I was first reading it. :)

[Jean]

Both books are great, just different feels and the writing style in Black House, particularly the beginning, is a bit hard to get used to.
Yes. It's mostly the use of the present tense. Rather annoying.

[Darkthoughts]

When I first read The Talisman, over 10 years ago - it was instantly my favourite SK book ever...but even then, I was dissatisfied with the ending. I mentioned that to a friend MANY years later and she pointed me in the direction of Black House for some "closure" as she put it :D

Re-reading Talisman more recentley though, I was again bothered by the ending - as Jean said earlier, the last quarter of the book didn't flow right. Sort of made me wish I hadn't re-read it as I preferred my original memory of the book y'know?

[Telynn]

The Talisman was a better, more epic story. But Henry Leyden was AWESOME!

I do have to say, I was not happy with the beginning of Black House. The whole bird flying around and meeting different people didn't sit too well with me. All I wanted was to see Jack, and here I was being forced to meet people I don't know or care about. And about the time you start to get a little feeling of one of these people, off you go to start on another. I suppose it helped later, so the flow didn't have to slow down as much to introduce a character, but I really didn't like it at the time. I can see some people missing out on a great book because they didn't force their through that beginning part.

[Matt]

The beginning of Black House was rough for me too. I borrowed it from the library and ended up taking it back a few chapters in. Then I got it on audio and listened to it, it does seem to take you away.

I almost got vertigo with those bird scenes at the beginning :lol:

[Spencer]

The thing I most disliked was that Jack Sawyer so far hasn't become the major player in King's overall work that he seemed to be being built up to be.

[Ruki]

i listened to black house first and then read them both. the talisman is great and i agree that it's more of an epic story, but i'm psychotically in love with black house. i think it's the characters that make me like it more. the thunder five are awesome, henry leyden is so cool, the fisherman is so evil. and jack always kicks ass.

i loved the beginning of black house, flying around coulee country with gorg was an awesome way to start out. i might be influenced by my first experience with it though, closing your eyes and letting frank muller carry you away is very different from working through it on your own.

[Frunobulax]

I like about two thirds of Talisman. Especially the Sunlight Home part, which is unforgettable. But after the highest point of the story - Wolf's heroic death - it rapidly went downhill, and the last quarter was hardly readable. I love the whole of Black House, though.
Jean, you summed up my thoughts exactly.

[nyy3723a]

I love them both! I first read The Talisman when I was in Spain by myself for a few weeks visiting my family and now whenever I re-read it, I'm brought back to the feeling of being isolated and lonely (I didn't speak much Spainsh) but still safe and secure - I was living in my Grandparent's house after all.

I will always have a special connection to Black House - my wife was prego with my son and we were debating names back and forth for a while and I was re-reading Black House in preperation for the release of the final Dark Tower books. Well, as I was reading away, she looked over at me and said "What about Tyler?" and I was reading about little Tyler Marshal at the time.

Needless to say, my son Tyler will be 3 in about 2 weeks :)

[ZoNeSeeK]

...
I don't think that the connections to the Tower in The Talisman were intentional, in fact I have read that it was really King's first attempt at toying with concepts that would later riddle the Tower books...

Thats correct - The Talisman was published in 1984, and King mentions The Territories again the DT3, published in 1991.

[Frunobulax]

Black House definitely brings in more of the mythos than The Talisman, though.

[Erin]

I loved The Talisman.

The Black House, however, I have not read. Well, I take that back. I've read about the first few chapters, but then was forced by schoolwork to put it down for awhile and never picked it back up. It's on my reading list for the summer. The Black House, Eyes of the Dragon and Lisey's Story are the only King books i've never read.

[ZoNeSeeK]

They are all fantastic books, Erin.

[OchrisO]

I loved The Talisman.

The Black House, however, I have not read. Well, I take that back. I've read about the first few chapters, but then was forced by schoolwork to put it down for awhile and never picked it back up. It's on my reading list for the summer. The Black House, Eyes of the Dragon and Lisey's Story are the only King books i've never read.

I still can't believe you haven't read Eys of the Dragon. It makes me cry a little on the inside.

[Darkthoughts]

Erin, you have a cool summer ahead - those are three of my favourites :)

[Matt]

Same here--you will zoom through Eyes, its a really fun read.

[MaraJShakespeare]

I loved The Talisman from the beginning; Black House, I had to read again in order to really appreciate it. Last year, I picked up the Grant Talisman/Black House set, which is the best presentation of both of them; rereading them that way was a true pleasure. They really are beautifully put-together books, as are all of the Grant editions I've encountered. I hope King and Straub do wind up writing a third book in the series. Not only is three one of the most powerful of sacred numbers (the supernal triad of holy Kabbalah, etc.), the story remains unfinished. I don't know what, if any, Dark Tower connections there would be, as Jack Sawyer's path does not cross Roland's in any visible way in the last volumes of that series. Perhaps something he did, or will do, did have some further effect upon Roland's quest, but it would seem difficult to me to keep up suspense in such a situation, as we know what befalls Roland once he gets there. I don't know; King and Straub are quite clever; perhaps a third volume in The Talisman series would involve Roland's implied next go-round. With Jack injured and perhaps permanently stuck in the other world- or can he travel to 'other worlds than these?'- anything can happen, after all. . .

[alinda]

The Talisman is such a good book(one of my favorites actually)
Black House... I wasnt so crazy about it on my first go round
but feel better about it after having read it again.
I eagerly await the third book.

[Wuducynn]

I liked The Talisman quite a bit, but Black House with all its deep and important Dark Tower connections and real horror feel to it and I am a big Lord Malshun fan..just makes it one of my favorite non-Dark Tower books.

[Wuducynn]

Yes. It's mostly the use of the present tense. Rather annoying.

This was what took me a bit to get into Black House. Once I got used to it, it smoothed it out for me.

[Darkthoughts]

I'm rereading Black House - and even though I always list it as one of my favourite books, and Henry Leyden as one of my favourite characters (as well as ole Travellin' Jack of course) I had forgotten exactly how much I loved it. I would totally recommend a reread to anyone who struggled with it first time around - its a very gratifying read.

[Daghain]

I need to do that. I LOVED The Talisman, but wasn't too keen on Black House. I read it a LONG time ago, though, so I think I need to reread and see if I still feel that way. :D

[ZoNeSeeK]

The third book will be set primarily in the Territories - I am really looking forward to this one, as its related in location to midworld in a way. There will be plenty of references I think .. who knows, it could all be happening when Roland reaches the tower.

Remember, Susannah saw the lights of the Big Combination in DT7? That indicates that the events of black house havent happened yet but are probably about to. I wonder if the tower will play a part in the 3rd book. I hope so.

[Matt]

Oh man, me too.

I really loved these two books. Jack is one of those characters that feels like family the moment you meet him.

[Storyslinger]

Yeah, thats the feeling I got from him too

[Darkthoughts]

Remember, Susannah saw the lights of the Big Combination in DT7? That indicates that the events of black house havent happened yet but are probably about to. I wonder if the tower will play a part in the 3rd book. I hope so.
Zone, can you come in the Black House discussion thread in Tower connections and reference (chpt, pg no. etc) that quote for me?...I'm trying to work out the timeline and CK and I figured it as slightly different to what your reference would make it.

[ZoNeSeeK]

Hrm .. ill have to look through the book to find it. Do you have a copy of Bev Vincent's The Road to the Dark Tower? The reference is quoted in there in respect to the timeline, if someone has it on hand and can have a look for me (Daghain?) - my copy is at home.

Its something along the lines of how she saw a large, red glow on the horizon and wondered about (something like) what kind of machnery or place could be responsible for it .. or something like that. This happens quite a bit before Dandelo I am thinking, perhaps from the castle where her and Mia go to discuss? Its oly alluded to - the Big Combination isn't actually mentioned directly but it seems to fit with the scenes from the end of Black House. Ill try and remember to look for the reference when I get home if noone can find it before then.

[Daghain]

I'll try and check in a bit. I need dinner first! :D Plus, the book is buried on my desk somewhere - I REALLY need to straighten out my office. :lol:

[Hannah]

I loved the Talisman, and loved Blackhouse almost as much. The beginning of Blackhouse was really hard for me to get into for some reason.

[Darkthoughts]

Hrm .. ill have to look through the book to find it. Do you have a copy of Bev Vincent's The Road to the Dark Tower?
No, but I've bought the complete Concordance - it should be arriving soon...theres a postal strike here though so I may be waiting some time :cry:

[Daghain]

Bev's book is not bad, but it's got a limited number of topics in it. The Concordance is definitely worth it, IMHO. :D

[Wuducynn]

They're apples and muffin-balls. The Road to the Dark Tower is Mr. Vincent's examination of the series book by book and the Concordance is the Dark Tower encyclopedia. I'm guessing Ms. Furth will be doing an update on the Concordance considering it is now not complete.

[ZoNeSeeK]

Yeah, Road is like a long analytical essay exploring the series, it shouldn't be compared to Concordance as a reference book. I really enjoyed Road, I liked the way it flowed and its a really good book to re-read and get all of the series factoids in your head again without rereading the whole series.

[April'sFool]

If I may, The Talisman and Black House are two of the greatest non-Tower books King has written. I absolutely adore both Wolf and Henry, and of course Jack is awesome at any age. I personally loved the style of Black House, it's so different and captivating...

One thing I'm pissed about, though, is that my dad (who turned me onto the books, so I guess I can't complain too much) told me that Wolf and Henry died before I got that far. Thanks a lot, Daddy Dearest.

[Wuducynn]

Not only you may but you're encouraged. If you didn't I would be upset. I loved the style of Black House too just took me the first two chapters to get used to.
Oh and sorry about what happened, I don't know what he was thinking, if he even was thinking, to tell you about that before you read the books.

[April'sFool]

Yeah, Daddy Dearest isn't exactly known for his all-encompassing sympathy... :pullhair: I'll live, though.

[MaraJShakespeare]

They're apples and muffin-balls. The Road to the Dark Tower is Mr. Vincent's examination of the series book by book and the Concordance is the Dark Tower encyclopedia. I'm guessing Ms. Furth will be doing an update on the Concordance considering it is now not complete.

Good point. Once the comic series is really finished (after all 30 or so), Robin will need to revise the concordance, perhaps extensively. Considering her position in the making of the comics, she may be getting the new details organised for this task as she goes along- it's what I'd do if I were her. Okay, that's not true- it's what I like to think I'd do in her position. In truth, I'd put it off as long as possible and do it all at the very last minute.

[Wuducynn]

Good point. Once the comic series is really finished (after all 30 or so), Robin will need to revise the concordance, perhaps extensively. Considering her position in the making of the comics, she may be getting the new details organised for this task as she goes along- it's what I'd do if I were her. Okay, that's not true- it's what I like to think I'd do in her position. In truth, I'd put it off as long as possible and do it all at the very last minute.

Also, don't forget the possibility King might novelize some of the comic books. So we actually have new Dark Tower books sometime after the end of the comic series.

[Matt]

Holy shit!!

I had not heard that last little bit. :rock:

And I agree, there may need to be a whole new concordance when the comic series is over. There is no entry for "the crimson queen" for instance.

And speaking of that, we need to make sure all these new players are listed in Towerpedia! with the limited information we have attached.

[Wuducynn]

Holy shit!!

I had not heard that last little bit. :rock:

And I agree, there may need to be a whole new concordance when the comic series is over. There is no entry for "the crimson queen" for instance.

And speaking of that, we need to make sure all these new players are listed in Towerpedia! with the limited information we have attached.

King mentions it in one of his QA sessions in one of the issues..I'll post which one when I get home.

[Storyslinger]

cool

[Wuducynn]

Which I forgot to do... :lol:

[Storyslinger]

:pullhair:

[Daghain]

And speaking of that, we need to make sure all these new players are listed in Towerpedia! with the limited information we have attached.

I totally agree. :D I'm still working my way through the books! :lol:

[MaraJShakespeare]

It seems we have forgotten: this is the Talisman/Black House thread!

[Wuducynn]

cool

Here you go...

Last page of issue 4, middle paragraph where King is speaking - King: "What I'm saying is, I know now some things that I can do, because the Dark Tower is one book. I'd like to go back and fix it up. These people are helping me with some of the middle stuff. Who knows, I might end up novelizing the comic books." [Audience laughs and applauds]

Now, recent news from King's message board says he's decided that redoing the Dark Tower is not a priority for him anymore at the moment. But novelizing the comics? Hmmmmmmmmm possible new Dark Tower books there!

[Jean]

I can't but agree with MaraJ.

http://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k291/mishemplushem/Facilitation/backtotopic.gif

http://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k291/mishemplushem/Facilitation/thank_you-1.gif

[Storyslinger]

cool

Here you go...

Last page of issue 4, middle paragraph where King is speaking - King: "What I'm saying is, I know now some things that I can do, because the Dark Tower is one book. I'd like to go back and fix it up. These people are helping me with some of the middle stuff. Who knows, I might end up novelizing the comic books." [Audience laughs and applauds]

Now, recent news from King's message board says he's decided that redoing the Dark Tower is not a priority for him anymore at the moment. But novelizing the comics? Hmmmmmmmmm possible new Dark Tower books there!

Thanks CK

[Girlystevedave]

I liked Black House, but I LOVED The Talisman. It was the first time I got so emotionally involved in a story.

[MonteGss]

I think The Talisman helped me to really get involved with The Dark Tower. I may have even read it before I read DT2. I love that story but I also really love Black House.

[Wuducynn]

Lord Malshun touched my heart. :huglove:

[Deefuzz]

I loved the Talisman. Black House was real damned good but Talisman is easily my favorite of the two. Now that I am done with the Dark Tower series I should consider reading them again, but I have many other King books involved with the tower that I have to acquire and read now.

I would like to get those special edition Talisman and Black House books I keep seeing in collection pictures (Talisman is white, Black House is black, held in a slipcase) but I have no clue where that comes from. Sometimes it sucks being a newbie. :p

[Asterisco]

Does anyone know a tentative date for the third part of the saga? Straub and King agree to do it.

[Daghain]

Deefuzz, check here (http://www.thedarktower.org/palaver/showthread.php?t=974). You can find all sorts of collector info on the site - we have a great team working on it. :D

And if you post your question in Calvin's Corner, I'm sure someone will help you out.

[Brice]

Does anyone know a tentative date for the third part of the saga? Straub and King agree to do it.

To my knowledge there isn't a date. I haven't even heard if they've started on it.

[Storyslinger]

They better
*shakes fist at King and Straub*

Please?

[Randall Flagg]

I would like to get those special edition Talisman and Black House books I keep seeing in collection pictures (Talisman is white, Black House is black, held in a slipcase) but I have no clue where that comes from. Sometimes it sucks being a newbie. :p

They are still available from the publisher Grant Books for $150+ shipping.
Here is the direct link (https://secure.grantbooks.com/z-sk-talisman-bh.html)

As mentioned by Daghain, drop by Calvin's Corner with questions; people there are happy to help.

[Daghain]

And between them, they know just about EVERYTHING. :D

[MaraJShakespeare]

I would like to get those special edition Talisman and Black House books I keep seeing in collection pictures (Talisman is white, Black House is black, held in a slipcase) but I have no clue where that comes from. Sometimes it sucks being a newbie. :p

They are still available from the publisher Grant Books for $150+ shipping.
Here is the direct link (https://secure.grantbooks.com/z-sk-talisman-bh.html)

As mentioned by Daghain, drop by Calvin's Corner with questions; people there are happy to help.

The Talisman/Black House set comes from Grant; I believe there's a deal where you can get it with the purchase of an artist's edition of DT 7 that may still be available on the Donald M. Grant website. If not, you might be able to find one on ebay (which is where I got mine). In fact, ebay sometimes has incredible deals on this particular set- but it's worth whatever it costs. I'd have to say that it's one (well, two) of the most beautiful books I own. I also have the original Grant 2-vol. edition of The Talisman from '84, which is also quite lovely. Ebay has one of those, going for $349.00 right now, the auction ending at 9.48 PM central time. Not a bad deal; I saw another one in a local used bookstore (here in Austin) going for $500 a while back. If memory serves, there were only 1200 of them made; I don't remember how many of the more recent Talisman/Black House set there are, though. Unless you're a serious collector, you're probably better off just getting that one, as it contains the whole story to date. But since they're probably going to write a third book, perhaps the really smart thing to do would be to just stick with the mass-market editions for reading in the interim, then pick up the inevitable 3-vol. set of the whole thing from Grant whenever it comes out! I'll obviously have to buy the third book from Grant on it's own, as I don't intend to buy the first two books again!

[Randall Flagg]

There were 3,500 of the Talisman/Black House gift set.
Here are links to the King Catalog in Calvin's Corner for info on the different books:

Black House / The Talisman Gift Edition (http://www.thedarktower.org/palaver/showthread.php?t=1000)

The Talisman - Deluxe (http://www.thedarktower.org/palaver/showthread.php?t=1137)

The Talisman - S/L (http://www.thedarktower.org/palaver/showthread.php?t=979)

[Cutter]

The Talisman/Black House set comes from Grant; I believe there's a deal where you can get it with the purchase of an artist's edition of DT 7 that may still be available on the Donald M. Grant website.
Yep, but it's the other way around. Buy the Talisman/Black House Gift Set at $165 and get a free DT VII Artist Edition. there is a different link to see this deal instead of the one posted above.

https://secure.grantbooks.com/z-sk-dt-7.html

I actually bought this deal and it was worth every penny!

[Randall Flagg]

Great info. Thanks. I agree, that price for the gift set AND a DTVII artist edition is a deal.

[Darkthoughts]

Whats the postage to the UK for that deal Nerak? Thought I'd shortcut and ask you here this time :D

[ZoNeSeeK]

The Talisman has been optioned as a miniseries a while ago, i think. Check out the IMDB entry:

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0384580/

[Storyslinger]

Very cool, Thanks Zone

[Jon]

I wanted Henry from the Black House to show up in Dt7 sooo badly!

[Darkthoughts]

:thumbsup: Henry Leyden is one of my favourite King characters ever!!

[Wuducynn]

I wanted Henry from the Black House to show up in Dt7 sooo badly!

Thats funny, because I felt the same way about Lord Malshun!

[obscurejude]

I have read the Talisman several times over the years. When I was younger, the quest motif made an indelible impression over me and secured my place among other "constant readers." I enjoyed Black House, but found it a little more difficult to get into. I think the story really began to pick up after Jack began to acknowledge his past. Before that point, it was hard to see him as the as the same character from the Talisman. I loved the DT connections in Black House and really hoped that Jack would show up in the final novels, but of course he didn't.

[Wuducynn]

There is a third one supposed to come out sometime within the next ten or fifteen years. I'm looking forward to that a lot.

[obscurejude]

There is a third one supposed to come out sometime within the next ten or fifteen years. I'm looking forward to that a lot.

I read that somewhere too CK. I'm trying not to get my hopes up, but yes, I'd love to see a third volume.

[Storyslinger]

Wouldn't we all

[obscurejude]

Yes we would.

[ATG]

The Talisman was one of the most magical reads ever.

[BedOfRoses]

I read Talisman last year and thought it was so good. I just started reading Black House and am loving it so far. I love Henry Leyden, too! :)

[ZoNeSeeK]

Does anyone know the history behind Straub and King? why they decided to collaborate?

[Matt]

That's a good question, I know that one of the characters in Duma Key mentions Straub as a writer to look at.

Side bar but cool I thought

[Brice]

Does anyone know the history behind Straub and King? why they decided to collaborate?


The idea of writing "The Talisman" first took form when Stephen King moved with his family to London in early 1977. It was there he met Peter and Susan Straub, along with their children, and the two writers became friends, both being fans of each other's work. After a short friendship, King and his family left after only three months back to the United States. Straub and King had talked multiple times before about collaborating to write a book, but nothing ever surfaced until ten years after King moved back, when the Straubs moved to the United States as well. According to King, after Straub moved, "the talk got serious," and they began writing. Their literary friendship did not end after the publication of "The Talisman". In 1999 they began working on a sequal to "The Talisman", dealing with Jack Sawyer as an adult. It was published in 2001, entitled Black House.

[dante]

Ohhhh, I love these two books so much, so forgive me if I get a little gushy for the next few minutes.

It definitely isn't because of the Dark Tower connection. I know that because I read The Gunslinger 10 or so years ago, didn't like it too much at the time, and only just picked it up again about 2 months ago and now love the series (I'm up to Wolves of Calla). I read Black House and The Talisman and loved them so much more at the time.

It isn't the fact that it's a story which spans time, either, as in young Jack and older Jack over the two books. That's because I read them out of order and started with Black House first, as my mum got it for me for a Christmas gift a few years ago. I didn't even know it was a 'part 2' until I properly read the sleeve notes.

In fact, I'm not sure what it is that keeps pulling me back to these books again and again. Especially Black House. I love the intro. I love that lazy flight across French Landing before we meet the first few characters.


Right here and now, as an old friend used to say, we are in the fluid present, where clear-sightedness never guarantees perfect vision. Here: about two hundred feet, the height of a gliding eagle, above Wisconsin's far western edge, where the vagaries of the Mississippi River declare a natural border. Now: an early Friday morning in mid-July a few years into both a new century and a new millennium, their wayward courses so hidden that a blind man has a better chance of seeing what lies ahead than you or I. Right here and now, the hour is just past six a.m., and the sun stands low in the cloudless eastern sky, a fat, confident yellow-white ball advancing as ever for the first time toward the future and leaving in its wake the steadily accumulating past, which darkens as it recedes, making blind men of us all.


How could anyone not love that? :wub:

I love the bikers and their adventure out to the Black House, and what it does to them when they try to enter and then leave. I love the talking raven, and Henry Leyden especially his demise, and the message he leaves for Jack to find after he's been killed by Burney

I'm not sure what it is in it that touched me and made me love it. I definitely love Black House so much more than The Talisman, even though they're two parts of the same story. It's probably my favourite King book, and having worked out it's connections with the Tower I suppose I'll love it even more now, and will have to re-read once I'm done with the Tower (:lol:, I'm not sure I'll ever be done with the Tower now it's captured me, but you know what I mean) so I can pick up on all the character/location connections with fresh eyes.

Actually, thinking about it I'm going to have to get Mr Dante to hide my copy, so I'm not tempted to read it before finishing the Tower series :lol:

[mia/susannah]

I very much enjoyed the Talisman, I have not read the Black House. I will purchase this book when I get the chance though. It sounds very interesting

[Girlystevedave]

I felt like I kinda had to force myself to finish Black House...I was left wanting more.

[MonteGss]

I totally love both of these books. I will admit that the first few pages of BH was a little hard for me to get into (i didn't really dig the fly-by of the city) but once Jack was finally re-introduced it picked up the pace and I fell for it. Henry Leyden is such a great damned character. Oh, I'm a big fan of the Twinner concept too. :)

[Jean]

dante, you are my queen! http://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k291/mishemplushem/Facilitation/bear_wub.gifhttp://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k291/mishemplushem/Facilitation/bear_wub.gifhttp://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k291/mishemplushem/Facilitation/bear_wub.gif

of course Black House is the top of the tops! everything you mentioned, and then the astounding concept of slippage, and opopanax, and the glorious Thunder Five, and the ridiculous Wendell Green, and that fantastic moment on the road when they tell Mr.Munshun he won't go no further,
and lots more and more.
It's one of the fullest, richest books of my life, I love every word of it.

[alinda]

Dante your words greatly expressed
the feelings I have for this book.
I was so in love with Jack and his
earlier adventures, I was downright
eager to get on with his tale.
I also loved that flying over intro.
Right here, right now.....yeah!
Everything you & Jean mentioned
were wonderful catalists of my
imagination. Saving all the children
really got me too, reminded me of
the children I met in "the system"
when trying to adopt my boys...
A third installment is tops on my
wish list of books I'd like to see
published.

[MonteGss]

A third installment is tops on my
wish list of books I'd like to see
published.

Hell yeah! :D

[obscurejude]

A third installment is tops on my
wish list of books I'd like to see
published.

Hell yeah! :D

You say true, I say thankya. Hear, Hear, I beg.

[Wuducynn]

A third installment is tops on my
wish list of books I'd like to see
published.

Hell yeah! :D

You say true, I say thankya. Hear, Hear, I beg.

Fourthed.

[Storyslinger]

A third installment is tops on my
wish list of books I'd like to see
published.

Hell yeah! :D

You say true, I say thankya. Hear, Hear, I beg.

Fourthed.

Fifthed, and the motion carried.

[John_and_Yoko]

I haven't read Black House yet, so I can't vote on that, but I have to say it--I didn't like The Talisman as much as I'd hoped to....

I kept waiting and waiting for something to happen, and when it finally did, it was like "That's it?" It was like the literary equivalent of watching a TV miniseries, and it looked like it ought to have been called "Traveling Jack" for the better part of it, rather than "The Talisman." Maybe it's because I started The Dark Tower series first, but The Talisman just felt to me like a poor attempt at mimicking The Dark Tower on a smaller scale....

Don't get me wrong, I didn't come here to knock The Talisman, and as I said, I haven't read Black House yet--maybe I'll enjoy that one more.

And I did like Wolf, and was sorry he had to die like that, I'm not saying the book had no redeeming qualities for me. It just wasn't what I was expecting, and hoping for--but that might just be me. I have enjoyed most of the Stephen King books I've read, Dark Tower or no, but not this one so much.

[Jean]

<--- doesn't think much of Talisman, either (except the very beginning and the Sunlit Home part)
<--- is a BIG fan of Black House
so yes, there is a difference between the two and you might still enjoy BH

also, please: being a two book-thread, it is not a spoiler thread, so mark your spoilers

http://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k291/mishemplushem/Facilitation/THANKYOU.gif

[Wuducynn]

I like The Talisman quite a bit, but I LOVE Black House. Its just much more, exciting, re-readable and interesting to me.

[John_and_Yoko]

<--- doesn't think much of Talisman, either (except the very beginning and the Sunlit Home part)
<--- is a BIG fan of Black House
so yes, there is a difference between the two and you might still enjoy BH

also, please: being a two book-thread, it is not a spoiler thread, so mark your spoilers

http://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k291/mishemplushem/Facilitation/THANKYOU.gif

*winces*

Sorry--I'm not always aware of what counts as a spoiler, usually I'm more careful about that.... :(



But that's good, and I look forward to reading Black House at some point--got to finish Wolves of the Calla first, and then I wanted to read Insomnia and Hearts in Atlantis before I start Black House.

[mia/susannah]

I have read the Talisman and enjoyed it. I was very sad when wolf was killed. I have not read Black House.

[Jean]

there's a sticky thread explaining spoiler policy in every forum. Here's (http://www.thedarktower.org/palaver/showthread.php?t=240) the one for Cara Laughs.

[Wuducynn]

You're a real pain in the ass, Jean.

[Jean]

http://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k291/mishemplushem/Facilitation/bear_tongue.gifhttp://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k291/mishemplushem/Facilitation/bear_cool.gifhttp://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k291/mishemplushem/Facilitation/bear_tongue.gif

[John_and_Yoko]

Jean's just trying to stick to the rules as they exist. I can sympathize.

[jayson]

I like The Talisman quite a bit, but I LOVE Black House. Its just much more, exciting, re-readable and interesting to me.

i also prefer BH to Talisman. I love both, but I think the writing in BH is a tighter, and Henry Leyden and Beezer St Pierre are two of the greatest characters imo. there is also more immediate excitement, and the obvious direct DT references all make BH the preferable re-read for me. all that said, i still love Talisman and rec it to anyone who has never given it a try. it's a great book. if you loved jake chambers, you will love jack sawyer.

[mia/susannah]

there's a sticky thread explaining spoiler policy in every forum. Here's (http://www.thedarktower.org/palaver/showthread.php?t=240) the one for Cara Laughs.

I apoligize. I forgot to put the spoiler. Won't happen again. :unsure:

[John_and_Yoko]

if you loved jake chambers, you will love jack sawyer.

Unless you get them confused.... :(

[Girlystevedave]

This may be out of place (please movie it if it is)...but does anyone know anything about TheTalisman movie that is supposed to be out this year. IMD doesn't have much info about it. I originally heard it was due to air around July. Anyone know anything more?

[obscurejude]

This may be out of place (please movie it if it is)...but does anyone know anything about TheTalisman movie that is supposed to be out this year. IMD doesn't have much info about it. I originally heard it was due to air around July. Anyone know anything more?

Brice told me that Spielberg has had the rights since 1984. Don't get your hopes up.

[Brice]

This may be out of place (please movie it if it is)...but does anyone know anything about TheTalisman movie that is supposed to be out this year. IMD doesn't have much info about it. I originally heard it was due to air around July. Anyone know anything more?


Brice told me that Spielberg has had the rights since 1984. Don't get your hopes up.

Oh, last I heard it was still planned, but who knows when? :unsure:

[Girlystevedave]

Yeah, I originally heard Spielberg too. I just can't find any new info about it.

[Wuducynn]

If anyone does The Talisman and/or Black House it really should only be Frank Darabont. He seems to be the only director that rightly captures King's work.

[Girlystevedave]

I read somewhere that SK told him "You get the prison stories" though

[Wuducynn]

Yeah, I heard that too. What was that from anyway?...now you've got me wondering...

[Girlystevedave]

I think it was mentioned in the extras in one of the very first DT comics. ..... I think

[John_and_Yoko]

Just finished Black House and--

Oh.

My.

God.



I don't think I have ever so thoroughly changed my mind about a book over the course of actually reading it--ever! What an amazing story! So much in just one single volume--and a killer of an ending! I wasn't sure if I would be interested in the third installment in Jack Sawyer's story, but now I've been left wanting to know what happens next!

I am so glad I didn't give up on it, even despite the boredom I experienced in the first half--I'm still sorry for that, but the second half made up for it in spades! This is definitely going on my Top Five list, completing it for the first time! :D

(I feel like saying "thank you," but there's really no one to thank except the authors for writing it, and myself for reading it....)

[Wuducynn]

Just finished Black House and--

Oh.

My.

God.



I don't think I have ever so thoroughly changed my mind about a book over the course of actually reading it--ever! What an amazing story! So much in just one single volume--and a killer of an ending! I wasn't sure if I would be interested in the third installment in Jack Sawyer's story, but now I've been left wanting to know what happens next!

I am so glad I didn't give up on it, even despite the boredom I experienced in the first half--I'm still sorry for that, but the second half made up for it in spades! This is definitely going on my Top Five list, completing it for the first time! :D

(I feel like saying "thank you," but there's really no one to thank except the authors for writing it, and myself for reading it....)

I'm just glad you stuck with it...now you know why it's especially beloved by Dark Tower Junkies. :harrier:

[John_and_Yoko]

I'm just glad you stuck with it...now you know why it's especially beloved by Dark Tower Junkies. :harrier:

I sure do--there were a LOT of connections there! It would have been worth reading for that alone, but that was the least of the greatness of that novel! :D

Yeah, I don't like to start a book and then not finish it--only three times have I done that, and only one of those do I have my doubts about actually finishing....

[Wuducynn]

Its especially interesting considering - Song of Susannah and DT 7 spoiler that An Tak (the Big Combination) is pretty obviously the King's Forge, and now you know why it went out and one of the reasons for Los's weakened state at the end of DT7

[alinda]

Yeah, and why some of us (I) think Jack Sawyer is so cooland
the promised 3rd installment will have DT references too!

[Wuducynn]

Why is the fact that you think "Jack Sawyer is cool" a spoiler for anything Linda?

[alinda]

:blush: I dont know Mattttqew...but I like using those hidey things it is so much fun!

[Empath of the White]

I was wondering about some names thrown around...

The way Malshun spoke of Din-Tah, he made it sound like it was a place other than the Forge, aka the Big Combination, aka An-Tak. So was this an alternate name for the Devar-Toi?

[Ves'Ka Gan]

Good thread, Zone!

I think both books have their high points for me, I did love The Talisman ecause it was driven by those kid fears, wonders, joys, etc. And it was a wild ride full of adventure.

Black House on the other hand scared the living **** out of me! Long before the book delved into the supernatural elements of the story I was worried to go to sleep (but so engrossed, that I kept turning pages). Plus, as someone who loved the Talisman, I was very happy to see Jack grow up.

Plus, take a look at that supporting characters thread--Wolf, Speedy and Henry Leyden factor in greatly, all three characters from those two books :)

[3 DOORS DOWN]

It's got to be the talisman for me which i have re-read 5 times and black
house once,i'll have to give black house another go as i do'nt remember to
much about the story.

[Odetta]

This is one of my all time favorite SK books! How do others feel about The Talisman?

I often think of it as a mini Dark Tower, which is an obvious statement, I am sure.

[Tiffany]

:clap:
This one is my favorite, favorite, FAVORITES.

I can't think of a single thing that I didn't like about it. Obviously I hated Sunlight Gardner and Osmond but if they hadn't been part of the story, I wouldn't love Jack and Wolf so much. So in a weird way, I love them, too. They are some of my favorite King villains.

Seriously can't think of anything I disliked.

And I've read it five times (I think) and it doesn't lose anything at all during the re-reads. I cry every time.

[alinda]

Agreed ! This story is for me the best of all the stories, the only exception of course being The Dark Tower. I have read it many times and fall in love with it all over again.
Some of the descriptions of the territories are like pictures of a memory to me somehow.

[Tiffany]

Some of the descriptions of the territories are like pictures of a memory to me somehow.

YES! More like a dream than a book I read.

[alinda]

:D

[BillyxRansom]

I cry every time.

:orely: Interesting.. I am reading this currently (trying to--Sloat In This World is slowing me down, I think) and this is very interesting to hear.

[Woofer]

Wolf! Right here and now!

http://psionguild.org/forums/images/smilies/wolfsmilies/shifthowl.gif

[Girlystevedave]

I love this story. It is definitely in my top three SK books. I remember the first time I read it, I had a difficult time really getting hooked UNTIL Wolf entered the story. After that, I couldn't put it down. This was the first book to make me cry and the first book that I really felt emotionally connected too.
I do agree that it is sort of a 'mini DT'...but I am glad that I read it before I ever picked up The Dark Tower, because it may have ruined this story for me.
It will always be close to my heart though. :wub:

[The Lady of Shadows]

when jack uses the american plural of wolf "wolves" and wolf about has a heart attack from laughing so hard because the proper plural for wolf is wolfs (as everyone knows). i loved that.

RIGHT HERE AND NOW!!!!!!!

[Mr. Rabbit Trick]

From the Mod at SKMB...

That reminds me that we still have on our Pending List setting up book reading groups. I have permission from Steve and also asked if at the end of the time that each book discussion is alloted he would be willing to answer up to 5 questions from readers about the book that is the selection and he agreed to do that.

http://www.stephenking.com/forums/showpost.php?p=218702&postcount=47

[MonteGss]

I loved The Talisman too but the Sloat parts kind of bored me. I've read this book three times and Blackhouse only once but....I think I may like Blackhouse more.

Wolf was an awesome character!

[alinda]

From the Mod at SKMB...

That reminds me that we still have on our Pending List setting up book reading groups. I have permission from Steve and also asked if at the end of the time that each book discussion is alloted he would be willing to answer up to 5 questions from readers about the book that is the selection and he agreed to do that.

http://www.stephenking.com/forums/showpost.php?p=218702&postcount=47



GET OUT Really? :rock:

[Darkthoughts]

I have permission from Steve and also asked if at the end of the time that each book discussion is alloted he would be willing to answer up to 5 questions from readers about the book that is the selection and he agreed to do that.

http://www.stephenking.com/forums/showpost.php?p=218702&postcount=47

ZOMG!!!! I might finally find out who the green man in Insomnia is!!!! :panic::rock:

I also have nothing but love for The Talisman.

It got me back into King after an absence of about 5 years, Wolf undoutably being the highlight of the story.

I think I also love Black House just slightly more, Henry Leyden (my tie for the number one position of fav SK characters ever with Wolf) I just adored!

[alinda]

Don't we all have that in common? They are some of the best charactures ever!!

[Darkthoughts]

I think so :D I have noticed those two topping just about everyone's lists!

Do you think Henry and Wireman are related? I got a real Henry vibe off him :cool:

[Jean]

er, no. Henry has a perfect sense of style. He would never use "muchacho" in every other sentence, or maybe the author describing him or anything related to him would have good enough taste not to f***ing italicize it every goddam time, so it won't stick out like a sore thumb.

[Darkthoughts]

:rofl:

[jhanic]

I've always liked Black House more than The Talisman, mainly because Talisman is an epic quest adventure, while Black House can't really be placed in any one category. I enjoy epic quest novels (and series--The Lord of the Rings can't be beat!) but I seem to like a little more action in my stories most of the time. It's just me, though.

As for Henry vs. Wireman, Henry wins hands down. He's got "class" in every sense of the word.

John

[Darkthoughts]

I can't remember why but the first time I read The Talisman, when Henry was introduced, I thought he was going to turn out to be one of the bad guys...it was something in his conversation with the guy outside the radio station...really can't put my finger on why though - I didn't get it in any subsequent re-reads.

[alinda]

Black House? *nudge* *nudge*

[Darkthoughts]

:lol: Er yes, Black House!

[alinda]

Yeah well that scene was rather clandestine somehow, almost like so many hints thrown around as to identities of "the rat " and all. That's the one right?

[Darkthoughts]

Yes, the very same!

[Jean]

That's the problem with this thread. It is already becoming indistinguishable from that thread (http://www.thedarktower.org/palaver/showthread.php?t=450).

[Darkthoughts]

:lol: I wondered when I was going to get told to get back on topic!
/stops messing with the Bear :innocent:

[alinda]

how could it not? merge?, Oh my goodness, it's the book of the month! n/v. :unsure:

[Odetta]

I will merge it once the month is over!

[alinda]

;)

[Brainslinger]

I include spoilers here since I mention events from other books including Black House and the Dark Tower books.

In comparing The Talisman with the Dark Tower books, do you think that the Talisman is another incarnation of the Tower, since it is described as a nexus of worlds, of sorts? Or is the Black hotel the Tower in that world?

In my opinion the Talisman is not the Tower for 3 reasons:

1. When Jack flipped worlds at the end, the Talisman remained in the same form in all worlds. It exists in all worlds simultaneously in that very form. The Dark Tower, on the other hand, whilst it exists in all worlds, is not a Tower in all worlds.

2. The Talisman was used up at the end. We know from Black House that some of it's power remained in Jack, but the majority was used up. The Tower, by it's very nature can't be used up, but must remain until the end of time. (In fact it's fall would cause the end of time.)

3. In Black House Lord Malshun refers to the Talisman as "The Orb of Forever", or words to that effect, going purely by my (often flawed) memory. This at least suggests it's a separate entity from the Tower. The term 'forever' is interesting though since it was used up. I suspect the power itself will always exist after a fashion though. Energy doesn't vanish, it changes form (a least so the scientists say.)

That being said, I think it is surely linked to the Tower, might even be a part of it, at least that part which is White. A container for it's essence if you like.

I think the Hotel itself could well be an incarnation of the Tower though. The whole area there was thin, the realities of (that) America and the Territories bled together. And whilst he was in the house Jack was able to flip into other worlds than the territories. I used to think that it was the Talisman that allowed him to do that, but maybe it was the Hotel itself (or maybe both.) The Hotel also took different forms when he flipped, i.e. it wasn't always a hotel, but a castle or another kind of fortress.

The only problem I have with the Hotel being the Tower, is that the Hotel seemed to be a place of evil, whilst the Tower is mostly good. Or neither good or bad, I'm not too clear on that, but it's certainly a place of order. In fact it IS order. It could be infected, spoilt however. Much as the rose had a blight. And the Tower had the Crimson King and the Breakers.

Maybe the evil had taken a greater root in that incarnation. Of course if it had there, and the Tower is the centre of everything, then I'd think all incarnations of the Tower would be affected the same, but maybe that's only certain in a keystone world.

[KaLikeAWheel]

I adore The Talisman! I recently re-read it for the nth time and I still cry in all the right places. ::sigh:: :wub:

I'm pretty sure The Teritories and The Tower are two parallel worlds that are closely related, but not quite as closely as Eddie/Susannah's world is with the keystone earth. I always have, however, assumed The Teritories and the world of The Eyes of the Dragon are the same world.

I agree The Tower and The Black Hotel are not the same thing, but perhaps they are moral opposites (without evil there can be no good, etc.) I assume The Tower to be "good" because our heroes' quest is to save it, though I do get a more neutral vibe like Brainslinger said.

Donna

[sfischer]

I can't remember why but the first time I read The Talisman, when Henry was introduced, I thought he was going to turn out to be one of the bad guys...it was something in his conversation with the guy outside the radio station...really can't put my finger on why though - I didn't get it in any subsequent re-reads.

I got that vibe from Henry as well, but for me it was the fact that he had so many personalities...I thought it could be possible that one of those personalities could be the one doing the kidnapping.

[jhanic]

I'd just like to remind everyone that Henry was a character in Black House, not Talisman.

John

[Darkthoughts]

:lol: Yeah, I think I stood corrected on that on the previous page, but never edited.

Sfischer, agreed, I was probably thinking along the same lines :thumbsup:

[sarah]

I just finished The Talisman yesterday and of course I cried. Wolf! so so so good. I was talking with sarajean last night about it and she said she always cries too. The last two pages of the book were such a blur of tears. and of course being a huge Mark Twain fan and loving Tom Sawyer, the quote on the very last page had me crying all over again.

Great book of the month, Odetta. Thanks!!!

[jessamine]

I finished The Talisman two days ago. One of the lovely librarians recommended it to me after our Dark Tower discussion.
The book was...OK. I loved the Territories.
No crying. No strong feelings. I only gave it two stars on my Goodreads page.
Started Black House immediately after. Maybe I will be luckier with this one. People seem to have stronger feelings for one or the other.

[jessamine]

I do believe due to my awkward discourse and posting style I might be putting people off. If this is the case, I apologize.:unsure:

[The Lady of Shadows]

why would you think that? :unsure:

[MonteGss]

I just finished The Talisman yesterday and of course I cried. Wolf! so so so good. I was talking with sarajean last night about it and she said she always cries too. The last two pages of the book were such a blur of tears. and of course being a huge Mark Twain fan and loving Tom Sawyer, the quote on the very last page had me crying all over again.

Great book of the month, Odetta. Thanks!!!

While I didn't quite reach the "blur of tears" stage...I felt pretty emotional about it. The first time I read this book I was pretty young, 12 or 13 maybe. I read it last year for the second time and it was still pretty damned emotional.

[jessamine]

Because just after these lovely posts where people are professing their love of the story in clomps me and gives it just an OK with no real explanation. I 'm thinking maybe I sounded just a tad bit chilly.

[jessamine]

Oh, whoops. There I go taking everything a little too literally. Sometimes I have trouble with subtlety.
Laughing at self and breaking out in a cold sweat. Don't hate me because I'm a dork.

[The Lady of Shadows]

:thumbsup: :rose:

[Jean]

Because just after these lovely posts where people are professing their love of the story in clomps me and gives it just an OK with no real explanation. I 'm thinking maybe I sounded just a tad bit chilly.
I am not a very big fan, of Talisman, either (except the Sunshine part, and the hwole Wolf line). I don't think anyone here could hate anyone for not sharing their taste... we're generally not big haters here... http://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k291/mishemplushem/Facilitation/0134-bear.gif

Absolutely love Black House, though (is in my top five King novels).

[Odetta]

OK, so we did The Talisman last month, why not continue the discussion with Black House?

I didn't really enjoy this book. The best thing to come out of it for me was Henry Layden... one of the most interesting characters developed, IMO.


What did you think?
Let's Discuss!

[Hannah]

I didn't like it as much as The Talisman, but I certainly enjoyed the book. I loved the DT tie-ins as well.

[Matt]

I agree, thought the DT tie in's were great and just getting a chance to lay eyes on Jack Sawyer again was the best.

The killer was well done imo too.

[jayson]

I loved Black House, though I will always love The Talisman more as it was first.

As far as what I liked about BH...

- Obviously all of the references to DT, especially at a time when there was no new DT to read.

- The return of Jack, one of my favorite characters in all of King's vast catalog.

- The Thunder Five. Like everyone else, I loved Henry, but for me, the most interesting "side" characters in BH were the Thunder Five, particularly Armand "Beezer" St. Pierre. They are the kind of guys I could easily see myself hanging out with.

[Jean]

I love Black House immeasurably more than The Talisman (although I did read TheTalisman first, too). It's in my top three, with It and The Stand.

[jhanic]

I also liked Black House more than Talisman. I simply LOVED all the various characters, both good and bad, in this work, and especially, of course, Henry!

(The story itself was pretty good too!)

John

[Empath of the White]

Great pick, this too is one of my top King books, outside of DT 1-7. Beezer and the Thunder Five were awesome side characters. I have to say, toward the end there I was simultaneously holding the book in one hand and massaging my lower stomach area with the other at a certain part.

One thing I was wondering about on the names: Din-Tah, was Malshun referring to what we know was Algul Siento or was this another name for the Forge? To me it seemed like he was referring to the Breaker prison. Aside from DT reference, did anyone catch the Pennywise reference?

[stone, rose, unfound door]

Great pick, this too is one of my top King books, outside of DT 1-7. Beezer and the Thunder Five were awesome side characters. I have to say, toward the end there I was simultaneously holding the book in one hand and massaging my lower stomach area with the other at a certain part.

One thing I was wondering about on the names: Din-Tah, was Malshun referring to what we know was Algul Siento or was this another name for the Forge? To me it seemed like he was referring to the Breaker prison. Aside from DT reference, did anyone catch the Pennywise reference?

I caught the reference, although I can't put my finger on it now :( Anyway, I have to agree with you on everything you said about the book and I thought that Din-Tah was the Forge, but I may be mistaken. Like Jean, I liked it way more than the Talisman, although Wolf is one of my favourite saide characters. It was a lot darker and more enjoyable to me.

[jayson]

I'm pretty sure Din-Tah was in reference to the CK's forge. I'll bet Matthew knows for sure.

[ManOfWesternesse]

Add me to the 'liked Black House more than The Talisman' camp. Talisman was great, but BH was one of the best!

& yes, I think Din-Tah was the forge...

[Wuducynn]

I'm pretty sure Din-Tah was in reference to the CK's forge.

That's what I've always thought.

[Wuducynn]

- The Thunder Five. Like everyone else, I loved Henry, but for me, the most interesting "side" characters in BH were the Thunder Five, particularly Armand "Beezer" St. Pierre. .

Same here.

[jayson]

Last night I finished my most recent re-read of Black House. After the "Sawyer Gang" emerged triumphant from the house I noticed the following description...



It's only a house, now - a three-story job that might once have been a respectable ranch but has fallen into disrepair over the years.

A three-story ranch house? I think not. Ranch houses are single story dwellings. There are rare two-story ranches that are referred to as "raised ranches" but once you get to three stories, we have entered the realm of "split level" homes, certainly not ranches.

It's obviously not a big deal and doesn't affect the story in any way, but these things stand out to me. It's like King's description in Duma Key of the architecture on Davis Island as "art deco". King obviously knows very little about architecture.

[jhanic]

I noticed that also on my first read of Black House. King is often mistaken in his details like this (and, of course, nothing comes to mind right now!) but I've learned to overlook this. I think a good editor would catch these.

John

[jayson]

With the many errors I've noticed throughout his work, I'm starting to think the editors don't read as thoroughly as one might think they do. It seems to me like they just skim looking for glaring errors.

I don't let it detract from my enjoyment of the stories either. If anything, finding the errors adds to my enjoyment. It just proves to me that I am paying attention.

[Beamer]

I've talked to a lot of people hat didnt like Black House, I thought it was great. I like how Jack has progressed, he's alot older in Black House so the Epic Quest would be harder to pull off, I mean Roland could do it for sure, Jack is no Roland. I really thought it was a good follow up to Talisman.

[mate211]

The Talisman was awsome! That was the first book which i ever read from Steve:D
The Black House was a bit boring...BUT I still love that:D
Oh and Wolf the best(Here and now)

[MonteGss]

I'm starting The Talisman ready by Frank Muller tonight. I am sure I will like my revisit of the story through him as he was friggin awesome. :D

:(

[razz]

Just finished Black house. Talisman was a bit slow to start for the first 15 or so pages. With Black house I had to make myself read for the first 60 or so. then it got good. fast.
one thing that annoyed me, was that they set up the Wendell green (biggest jackass award recipient) for a big climax in the story, then it seemed like they just forgot it, or decided it was too much trouble

[pixiedark76]

I like The Talisman way better then Black House. I found Black House to be very violent and graphic when they described the child murders. The Talisman appealed to me more because I loved the fantasy aspects. I also liked that it had the idea of flipping between worlds. (The Real world between The Territories.)

Black House just seemed very dark to me while The Talisman was full of light and inspiration.

[Lily-sai]

I liked Black House better than Talisman - partly because Talisman's translation in Finnish was so sloppy and I shuddered with annoyance more than once while reading. I know, ALWAYS read in the original language, but at that time I didn't have a copy in English..

I fell instantly in love with Jack Sawyer and the Territories. Is it 'flipping', the word used to describe Jack's movement between the worlds? (okay, okay, I promise to read both the books in English soon!)

Forgive me for this quite vague question, for it's been a quite a long time since I read Black House, but what was the word Jack uttered, to release the power of Good - was it a flower Jack was holding? The little things I've forgotten bug me the most.. :) I just remember it was quite a beautiful word (I've always loved beautiful names and words).

[jayson]

Forgive me for this quite vague question, for it's been a quite a long time since I read Black House, but what was the word Jack uttered, to release the power of Good - was it a flower Jack was holding? The little things I've forgotten bug me the most.. :) I just remember it was quite a beautiful word (I've always loved beautiful names and words).

D'yamba. :)

[Melike]

Add me to the 'liked Black House more than The Talisman' camp. Talisman was great, but BH was one of the best!

& yes, I think Din-Tah was the forge...
Me, too.
I have first read the Black House, accidentally:cyclops:. And I like the way of storytelling in it. Henry Leyden, of course, is an awesome character that can not be replaced by any other. And I love Mr.Munshun, too.

[Lily-sai]

Thankee-sai, R of G!! Of course, it was D'Yamba. Ah, what a magical word! :)

[divemaster]

I like about two thirds of Talisman. Especially the Sunlight Home part...[but] it rapidly went downhill, and the last quarter was hardly readable. I love the whole of Black House, though.

This are my sentiments exactly. The Talisman was okay for a while. Pretty good adventure, but lord did the last third blow. A chore to get through. In reading the Dark Tower series I was hoping that King would be able to do better than ending of The Talisman. (Thank God he did!).

Black House was very good. Maybe not top tier King, but not too many notches down the scale. I've only read it once. I have read The Talisman twice, but probably never again. I look forward to reading Black House again at some point.

[Jean]

http://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k291/mishemplushem/Facilitation/0134-bear.gifhttp://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k291/mishemplushem/Facilitation/0134-bear.gifhttp://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k291/mishemplushem/Facilitation/0134-bear.gif

[Slash281]

I just started reading the Talisman a while ago, and I just got to the part where he meets Wolf. But now we're in the Sloat in this world part so I took a break.

I really like Jack's character, he's incredibly brave and resourceful, but still human. He still has the innocence of a child (some what), but he's also very pessimistic about his quest, and everything that's happened to him. There's also the fact he's my age, and I basically just imagine myself doing everything he's doing. :P

If it was me I would've quit a looooooooooooooooong time ago.

But I don't really like Sloat's characterization. At this point it just seems like he's being a dick, for the sake of being a dick. I hope his motivations clear up later. Other than that I really like the book so far.

[obscurejude]

Slash, I read the Talisman when I was about your age and felt very involved in Jack's character. It made me feel like I could take on anything and I had a lot of dreams about being able to flip into the territories.

Sloat's character evolves a bit more the further you go into the story. There's some flashbacks of Jack's that I think will give you the depth you're seeking.

[Slash281]

Yeah, I really liked the way they used the flashbacks to give more insight into Jack's past.

Another thing I found interesting about the book is trying to figure out who wrote what. It must really weird having someone else writing a book with you. Like the scene where Jack was hitching with the pedophile, I was thinking to myself "Hmmm, probably King. But I don't know about this Straub guy, could be messed up in the head too." :lol:

[obscurejude]

:lol: I wondered about that quite a bit too, but I was genuinely surprised with how well it flowed altogether. I think Straub might have been an assett to King, because sometimes he tends to ramble-especially in his earlier works.

I bet the pedophile was King too. :lol:

I hope you continue to enjoy it. Its one of my favorite books and I'm 27 now.

[jayson]

The Talisman and Black House are still the only things by Straub that I've read so I too wonder when I read them what was Straub and what was King. I agree with Ryan that perhaps Straub helped King stay focused. I know I love both of those books.

Glad you are enjoying The Talisman so far Slash. Jack Sawyer is a great character and definitely courageous beyond his years.

[Slash281]

Didn't even notice the Sloat in this world chapter was a page long. :P

I'm really liking Wolf, seems like he'll be a good companion for Jack. Though it'll be interesting to see how Jack will have to change his story to fit in a six foot tall man-wolf.

[obscurejude]

Oh yeah, you're in for a treat. We all love wolf, and we even have a Woofer on the site. :)

What it would be to be reading the Talsiman for the first time again at a age 12. I'm jealous Slash. Please keep posting about your experiences. :couple:

[divemaster]

The Talisman and Black House are still the only things by Straub that I've read so I too wonder when I read them what was Straub and what was King. I agree with Ryan that perhaps Straub helped King stay focused. I know I love both of those books.

I tried to get into Straub. My first attempt was Floating Dragon. It was okay, but just okay. I believe King mentioned Ghost Story very favorably in Danse Macabre, so I tried that one. Again, I thought it was just okay. Then I read Koko and decided that Straub just wasn't for me. I might have read another one that's not coming to me at the moment.

The parts of The Talisman and Black House that seemed "Straubian" were the parts I liked the least. However, I believe I read somewhere that King said he and Straub at times attempted to simulate each other's style--sortof play a trick on the reader. "Oh, that's got to be King!" (Nuh-uh!)

In any event, I know they had a great time collaborating and the end results were entertaining enough. Black House moreso than The Talisman (IMO). Maybe that's because Black House seems to me to have more of King's "voice" in it.

[Brice]

The Talisman and Black House are still the only things by Straub that I've read so I too wonder when I read them what was Straub and what was King. I agree with Ryan that perhaps Straub helped King stay focused. I know I love both of those books.

I tried to get into Straub. My first attempt was Floating Dragon. It was okay, but just okay. I believe King mentioned Ghost Story very favorably in Danse Macabre, so I tried that one. Again, I thought it was just okay. Then I read Koko and decided that Straub just wasn't for me. I might have read another one that's not coming to me at the moment.

The parts of The Talisman and Black House that seemed "Straubian" were the parts I liked the least. However, I believe I read somewhere that King said he and Straub at times attempted to simulate each other's style--sortof play a trick on the reader. "Oh, that's got to be King!" (Nuh-uh!)

In any event, I know they had a great time collaborating and the end results were entertaining enough. Black House moreso than The Talisman (IMO). Maybe that's because Black House seems to me to have more of King's "voice" in it.

I've read the same somewhere though I don't remember where.

I like Straub and have read (and enjoyed) quite a few of his books including all the ones you've mentioned. It did take me awhile before I grew to appreciate his writing though excepting Ghost Story which I loved.

For those wondering about the pedophile...that easily could have been either of them. :lol:

[jayson]

Which of them do you think was responsible for the whole "bird's eye view" stuff in the first chapters of Black House? I thought that was one of the cheesiest narrative devices I've ever encountered.

The first time I read it, it was such a turn off that I almost put the book down. I had to remind myself that it was a Jack Sawyer book in order to push through. The whole thing just felt like the authors were calling shots for an eventual movie. Even when I re-read that book, I cringe when I read those parts.

[Brice]

Honestly, it's been years since I've read them. I'd have to read again to make a guess.

[jayson]

I used to blame it on Straub only because I'd never read anything else by him so it was easier, but I could just as easily see how it could have been King.

[Melike]

Which of them do you think was responsible for the whole "bird's eye view" stuff in the first chapters of Black House? I thought that was one of the cheesiest narrative devices I've ever encountered.

The first time I read it, it was such a turn off that I almost put the book down. I had to remind myself that it was a Jack Sawyer book in order to push through. The whole thing just felt like the authors were calling shots for an eventual movie. Even when I re-read that book, I cringe when I read those parts.

I've always thought it was Peter Straub. What do you think about Henry Leyden's character?

[jayson]

What do you think about Henry Leyden's character?

He's one of my favorite characters ever. If you don't count Roland and his ka-tet or Jack Sawyer, Henry is my favorite character in a King book. I'd love to sit and talk with him endlessly about music as he seems as obsessed with it as I am. The first time I read Black House I was working at a radio station and I used to wish Henry worked there.

[Melike]

What do you think about Henry Leyden's character?

He's one of my favorite characters ever. If you don't count Roland and his ka-tet or Jack Sawyer, Henry is my favorite character in a King book. I'd love to sit and talk with him endlessly about music as he seems as obsessed with it as I am. The first time I read Black House I was working at a radio station and I used to wish Henry worked there.
He is so real and so close. He is also one of my favorites.
And do you think, Henry is created and developed by Straub or King?

[Jean]

Which of them do you think was responsible for the whole "bird's eye view" stuff in the first chapters of Black House? I thought that was one of the cheesiest narrative devices I've ever encountered. The device may have been lousy, but bears loved the way it was done. Especially the concept of slippage, and many other things, too. It's, in fact, one of my favorite parts.......

[jayson]

And do you think, Henry is created and developed by Straub or King?

He seems like a very King character to me (especially in light of Wireman from Duma Key who felt kind of like King trying to recapture a bit of Henry), though having never read Straub it's hard to say what he may have contributed to Henry.


The device may have been lousy, but bears loved the way it was done. Especially the concept of slippage, and many other things, too. It's, in fact, one of my favorite parts.......

I agree Jean. I liked the material in the introductory chapter itself, it was just the manner of its presentation that annoyed me. I am perfectly comfortable with an omnipresent narrator's point of view without having to pretend I am a bird flying around the locale of the book.

[Jean]

I am perfectly comfortable with an omnipresent narrator's point of view without having to pretend I am a bird flying around the locale of the book.
Grrr, I was trying to forget the bird, and I had almost succeeded!

[jayson]

:lol:

I actually had succeeded until my last re-read a few months ago. I got to it and said "oh right, the stupid POV bird."

[Melike]

And do you think, Henry is created and developed by Straub or King?

He seems like a very King character to me (especially in light of Wireman from Duma Key who felt kind of like King trying to recapture a bit of Henry), though having never read Straub it's hard to say what he may have contributed to Henry.
I thought so. He is all King's. I agree with Wireman. I also think the same thing with Speedy.

[obscurejude]

:lol:

I actually had succeeded until my last re-read a few months ago. I got to it and said "oh right, the stupid POV bird."

Same here. Its the whole first chapter, right? Something like 30 pages. :(

[jayson]

Same here. Its the whole first chapter, right? Something like 30 pages. :(

Yep it's the whole first chapter when we go all over French Landing and see many of the characters we will meet in the story.

[obscurejude]

Same here. Its the whole first chapter, right? Something like 30 pages. :(

Yep it's the whole first chapter when we go all over French Landing and see many of the characters we will meet in the story.

Its painful man, and contrasts badly with the Talisman which has one of my favorite openings. I don't think I could have pushed through if it wasn't a Jack Sawyer story (and it takes awhile to even get to him).

[jayson]

It definitely took effort to keep going the first time I read it.

[obscurejude]

It definitely took effort to keep going the first time I read it.

I confess that I didn't make it on my recent re-read attempt. :

[jayson]

I actually found it a bit easier on re-read because I knew it was going to stop soon. It was still annoying though.

[obscurejude]

I'm hoping to make it when I try again this summer.

[Slash281]

Well past the halfway point of The Talisman, so now I'm wondering. What do you guys think would be a good buffer novel for in between Talisman and Black House? For some reason I just don't want to read one after another.

[Jean]

The Dead Zone. It's as completely, absolutely different from both as can possibly be.

[obscurejude]

I read IT when I was 13 Slash. I think you might dig that. Relevant to youth in many ways, but I wouldn't want to spoil it.

[Slash281]

I've read both the Dead Zone and IT, so none of those will do. Do you have any other suggestions?

[Unfound One]

Insomnia.

Have you read that one yet?
Damn good one.

[Jean]

I've read both the Dead Zone and IT, so none of those will do. Do you have any other suggestions?
Yes, but I suggest all other suggestions be made in the appropriate threads! http://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k291/mishemplushem/Facilitation/bear_wink-1.gif

[Slash281]

I've read both the Dead Zone and IT, so none of those will do. Do you have any other suggestions?
Yes, but I suggest all other suggestions be made in the appropriate threads! http://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k291/mishemplushem/Facilitation/bear_wink-1.gif

Uh..... GOOD IDEA!

[boogerb53]

God I love these books! They are my favorite, along with the DT series. Hard to pick which is best!

[Brainslinger]

And do you think, Henry is created and developed by Straub or King?

I actually thought he could well be Straub's. Mainly due to the musical nature of the character. Music (particularly Jazz) features quite strongly in Straub's books. A bit of a tenuous thing to base the character on, I know, but it's just my feeling. (On the other hand Henry was into Rock too, and that features qutie a bit in King books....)

Maybe he was as much a joint effort as the rest of the book.

Curously, on reading both books, I didn't really try to work out who wrote who. I hardly even noticed changes in style, etc.

[Melike]

And do you think, Henry is created and developed by Straub or King?

I actually thought he could well be Straub's. Mainly due to the musical nature of the character. Music (particularly Jazz) features quite strongly in Straub's books. A bit of a tenuous thing to base the character on, I know, but it's just my feeling. (On the other hand Henry was into Rock too, and that features qutie a bit in King books....)

Maybe he was as much a joint effort as the rest of the book.

Curously, on reading both books, I didn't really try to work out who wrote who. I hardly even noticed changes in style, etc.

Maybe because of being one of the coolest characters in King universe, I want him to be a King character... You can be right, though.

[Brainslinger]

I've just started reading The Talisman again. It's intresting coming across little things I've forget each time. That little funnel in the sand for example, before the adventures in the Territories even began.

[gsvec]

I just finished a Talisman re-read - and you're right! Amazing how much I'd forgotten in the years since the last read. Great story . . .

[Wuducynn]

Insomnia.

Have you read that one yet?
Damn good one.


Damn straight. :thumbsup:

[obscurejude]

I actually found it a bit easier on re-read because I knew it was going to stop soon. It was still annoying though.

"soon" is a bit of an understatement. The worst opening ever, in my opinion. It goes on for three fucking chapters and Jack isn't even mentioned until page 69 in the paperback. Further, the first person plural language continues throughout until Jack finally shoots that goddamn bird during the last 50 pages. Gorg is one of the lamest gimmicks in the history of fiction. EAP on the mind, I get it, but there's better ways to appropriate The Raven. I'd rather have a buffalo take a dump in my ear than read one more line about that stupid fucking bird, particularly in Munshun's broken frenchman impersonating german impersonating a south chicago native's dialect. "Night's Plutonian Shore" as a chapter title is as far as it had to go.

That being said, Jack is still my favorite hero in the King universe. I'm about to finish the book again and several parts brought tears to my eyes again. I love that guy and I love Henry Leyden and Judy Marshall and "Beezer" and Dale.

I have some heavier thoughts, but I might save them for pms and I'm too drunk to hash them out right now.

Aaron was right about the development of Jack's character being well done. There was a lot I appreciated this time around that I might have accidentally overlooked a few years ago. In contrast, I didn't care for the "real" Parkus. Speedy was a damn finer character and I think this is what leaves me with the most negative impressions concerning the forced aspect of the DT tie ins. How am I supposed to supplant the beloved Speedy of the Talisman with the hardened gunslinger wannabe that we are forced to gaze upon in brief snippets? Utter bullshit. I hope he isn't a big part of the next novel. King and Straub took their sweet fucking time in introducing Jack which in the end made his adulthood and its accompanying changes more cohesive. Why couldn't they have given a little more space to developing Parkus? It came across as yet another "god machine" ploy to connect Jack to the DT universe. Fuck that. Earth, the Territories, and Jack Sawyer are more than enough for me just like The Gunslinger alone is in regards to the DT series.

I'm more excited about the prospect of a third novel than I ever was about the completion of the Dark Tower series truth be told, especially after Callahan's discovery in the cave at the end of Wolves. I just knew that meta crap was going to suck.

[Lily-sai]

I actually found it a bit easier on re-read because I knew it was going to stop soon. It was still annoying though.

"soon" is a bit of an understatement. The worst opening ever, in my opinion. It goes on for three fucking chapters and Jack isn't even mentioned until page 69 in the paperback. Further, the first person plural language continues throughout until Jack finally shoots that goddamn bird during the last 50 pages. Gorg is one of the lamest gimmicks in the history of fiction. EAP on the mind, I get it, but there's better ways to appropriate The Raven. I'd rather have a buffalo take a dump in my ear than read one more line about that stupid fucking bird, particularly in Munshun's broken frenchman impersonating german impersonating a south chicago native's dialect. "Night's Plutonian Shore" as a chapter title is as far as it had to go.

That being said, Jack is still my favorite hero in the King universe. I'm about to finish the book again and several parts brought tears to my eyes again. I love that guy and I love Henry Leyden and Judy Marshall and "Beezer" and Dale.

I have some heavier thoughts, but I might save them for pms and I'm too drunk to hash them out right now.

Aaron was right about the development of Jack's character being well done. There was a lot I appreciated this time around that I might have accidentally overlooked a few years ago. In contrast, I didn't care for the "real" Parkus. Speedy was a damn finer character and I think this is what leaves me with the most negative impressions concerning the forced aspect of the DT tie ins. How am I supposed to supplant the beloved Speedy of the Talisman with the hardened gunslinger wannabe that we are forced to gaze upon in brief snippets? Utter bullshit. I hope he isn't a big part of the next novel. King and Straub took their sweet fucking time in introducing Jack which in the end made his adulthood and its accompanying changes more cohesive. Why couldn't they have given a little more space to developing Parkus? It came across as yet another "god machine" ploy to connect Jack to the DT universe. Fuck that. Earth, the Territories, and Jack Sawyer are more than enough for me just like The Gunslinger alone is in regards to the DT series.

I'm more excited about the prospect of a third novel than I ever was about the completion of the Dark Tower series truth be told, especially after Callahan's discovery in the cave at the end of Wolves. I just knew that meta crap was going to suck.

*happy sigh* That's so true, many of the finest characters of Sai King's dwell in those two novels. I can say no more but.. D'Yamba! :rose:

P.S. Well written, sai Ryan!

[jayson]

In contrast, I didn't care for the "real" Parkus. Speedy was a damn finer character and I think this is what leaves me with the most negative impressions concerning the forced aspect of the DT tie ins. How am I supposed to supplant the beloved Speedy of the Talisman with the hardened gunslinger wannabe that we are forced to gaze upon in brief snippets? Utter bullshit. I hope he isn't a big part of the next novel. King and Straub took their sweet fucking time in introducing Jack which in the end made his adulthood and its accompanying changes more cohesive. Why couldn't they have given a little more space to developing Parkus? It came across as yet another "god machine" ploy to connect Jack to the DT universe. Fuck that. Earth, the Territories, and Jack Sawyer are more than enough for me just like The Gunslinger alone is in regards to the DT series.

I agree with you there Ryan. I prefer Talisman Speedy to Black House's version of Parkus. I think the subtle connections of "The Territories" to DT universe work just fine in the Talisman, but with Black House he tried to force some of them in there and it feels that way at times. He could have dropped a lot of it without losing the element he needed to further the DT plot, the destruction of the CK's forge and how that theoretically affects the CK's power. Munshun gets breakers for the King. Got it. No need to try to tie every element of the story into Roland's world. We get it.

[obscurejude]

In contrast, I didn't care for the "real" Parkus. Speedy was a damn finer character and I think this is what leaves me with the most negative impressions concerning the forced aspect of the DT tie ins. How am I supposed to supplant the beloved Speedy of the Talisman with the hardened gunslinger wannabe that we are forced to gaze upon in brief snippets? Utter bullshit. I hope he isn't a big part of the next novel. King and Straub took their sweet fucking time in introducing Jack which in the end made his adulthood and its accompanying changes more cohesive. Why couldn't they have given a little more space to developing Parkus? It came across as yet another "god machine" ploy to connect Jack to the DT universe. Fuck that. Earth, the Territories, and Jack Sawyer are more than enough for me just like The Gunslinger alone is in regards to the DT series.

I agree with you there Ryan. I prefer Talisman Speedy to Black House's version of Parkus. I think the subtle connections of "The Territories" to DT universe work just fine in the Talisman, but with Black House he tried to force some of them in there and it feels that way at times. He could have dropped a lot of it without losing the element he needed to further the DT plot, the destruction of the CK's forge and how that theoretically affects the CK's power. Munshun gets breakers for the King. Got it. No need to try to tie every element of the story into Roland's world. We get it.

It would have been fine to have the tie ins as you've stated them, but he went too far, particularly in regards to Parkus as I've stated. I'm a little surprised that we're in agreement on this particular subject. :D Personally, I'd rather have had another adventure in the Territories rather than All World. I guess we'll see in the next book. I know that Aaron was psyched about the prospect of Jack rescuing Roland from the loop, but I don't think Roland needs rescuing and I'm sure you know why I think that. I just want something else in the vein of the Talisman.

[obscurejude]

*happy sigh* That's so true, many of the finest characters of Sai King's dwell in those two novels. I can say no more but.. D'Yamba! :rose:

P.S. Well written, sai Ryan!

D'Yama! dear. :rose:

[theyspunaweb]

I reading Black House right now, but I have never read the Talisman (somehow I didn't know it was the first of the two books, I thought they stood on their own). Is it a big deal for me to read them out of order? I know king probably makes most of his books appropriate to read alone...unlike the DT series. I don't know I am about a third into Black House and I am really enjoying it! It's actually an easier read to me than IT, I am finding myself thinking about the book when I can't read it and wanting more.

[Brice]

I think they can be read separately, but personally I'd stop and start with the Talisman first.

[theyspunaweb]

really? you'd stop? man I'm like 2/3s or more into it...

[RoseMadder]

Both books are very good, but The Talisman for me is one of those, you know the books that stay with you. I enjoyed rereading both, as I do. My short term memory loss isn't what it used to be, but it is a sacrifice I am willing to make..anyway..what was the question..:unsure: Oh, I was saying when I reread them, I liked Black House more after I had read it, then filled my word need with unrelated books,then went back to it. I have a theory, and it is that going into Black House I had that same expectation, held it up to an unattainable level of awesomness. Yep.