What Happened? Justifying the Fates of Characters...*spoilers

[theyspunaweb]

Riddle me this - (mind you, I'm only 200+ pages into the final book, but I've brought this topic up with my boyfriend who has read the whole thing and I don't believe I'll be opening up too many spoilers or jumping ahead of myself by posting this here)...

In this final book and mostly in the begginning of the story when Jake and the others of the ka-tet reunite at the Pigs Den, Jake stops for a minute to collect himself and is sad because he realizes that Father Callahan's Death is for real this time with the Vampires, and when he shot himself. He is is upset because he won't be coming back.

- But Why? Jake of all people knows that there "are other worlds than these" & has come back himself twice, to relive. So why does he believe this. My boyfriend says, indeed Callahan's story end's there, but it is weird that Jake of all people would think this way when he knows himself that death is not permanent.

My idea was that maybe it was because Callahan was killed in one of the Real Worlds (one of the mirror real worlds)... but wasn't Jake killed in one of the Real Worlds the first time when he was pushed in front of the car too? Or was that close to the real world, but a little off, because that was the same one Eddie Dean came from where his Brooklyn was different from the Real World? if my memory serves me correctly...

I understand that maybe it was Stephen Kings way to just let him fade out of the story but I just don't see why he'd have a character like Jake reflecting like this when Jake knows himself that life after death is extremely possible.

[Brice]

The world Callahan dies in is apparently the keystone world. If you die in the keystone world there is apparently no coming back...but who knows. There is only one keystaone world though. We really don't know that the worlds Jake, Eddie, or Susan came from are the same as each other either.

[theyspunaweb]

Yeah that was my initial thought too, my boyfriend thought that Jake came from the Keystone world to begin with but I think he is wrong... I think he forgot (he read it a little while ago) I think Jake came from a world that was close but not exact the the Keystone world, sort of like the world from The Stand with the Superflu.

[Brice]

Yes, I'm fairly sure none of them were drawn from the keystone world...perhaps close to it.

[razz]

i furgured it was because he already died once. but then again, Jake died three times.

[John_and_Yoko]

I always thought it was in either All-World or the Keystone World that death was permanent.

After all, Jake didn't appear to go anywhere after he fell into the mines in The Gunslinger.

[Letti]

I cry your pardon, theyspunaweb but I must change the title of the thread a little bit. It contains a big spoiler and all the threads can be visible from Palaver or when you check the new posts.
Please forgive me.
Thank you for the great thrad the question is good and I will answer soon. :)

[Letti]

Maybe Jake felt (he was strong with touch) that Callahan would find his belief again and he could stand and be true to beat his fears. Maybe you can find your real and infinite peace (no more worlds no more lives) if you can find your path as much as Callahan did...
Just an idea, no more. :)

[Brice]

I always thought it was in either All-World or the Keystone World that death was permanent.

After all, Jake didn't appear to go anywhere after he fell into the mines in The Gunslinger.


He went to the world Roland drew him in in TDoTT.

[Jean]

I am not sure about all that "keystone" thing (it has been too controversial all along), but I believe Callahan dies forever because his fate is complete. He died whole; he achieved his redemption and found his salvation. That's how Roland will die in the end, when he is at last allowed to enter the room at the top.

[Wuducynn]

Well since I don't believe that anyone dies and never goes on to another life (my personal beliefs and my beliefs about the Dark Tower series) for Callahan he goes on to another life but just not one tied to Roland's ka-tet. Great topic Theyspunaweb.

[bluelph24]

I recently just read in the road to the dark tower, and i can't find the passage now so i can't quote it, that the character must be of the keystone earth. It's not just the death in the keystone earth. So Jake, who is not of keystone earth, dieing doesn't mean that all jakes die. however, if callahan was of keystone earth, then maybe he could be lost and gone forever. i'll post a direct quote if i can find one.

[darktowerseeker]

I just thought that he was finally able to redeem himself for what happened in The Lot. Suicide goes against his beliefs as a priest, and what happened in The Lot made him "unclean". Because he would rather commit suicide than be taken by vampires again, he made a very clear choice; eternal damnation, but on his terms. Perhaps he was rewarded for the choice to try and save his soul this time, and finally was able to rest.

Just an idea.

[Letti]

I am not sure about all that "keystone" thing (it has been too controversial all along), but I believe Callahan dies forever because his fate is complete. He died whole; he achieved his redemption and found his salvation. That's how Roland will die in the end, when he is at last allowed to enter the room at the top.

I absolutely agree.
Anyway Jake can be wrong, can't he?

[LadyHitchhiker]

I would think so, Letti... :wub:

[pathoftheturtle]

But Callahan himself has an intuition that he'll go back to wandering the todash turnpikes. Maybe that is just a metaphor for heaven. Dunno, but I have always felt that he did go on to other worlds. Alternate worlds, not afterlife otherworlds... but maybe there is no difference. Anyway, I don't believe he's damned; becoming a vampire and feeding on the living... that is damnation.

In DT5, we see Jake revisit the bookstore and see himself, but this time the sign features "Stephen King" and a few other things are different So, apparently, our Jake is not from the "keystone" earth, but there is a Jake that is from there -- Which raises even more questions, if you think that over. The whole keystone thing is confusing and contradictory, always bothered me. SK seems to be saying "fantasy worlds are also real... but not really." Huh? Anyway, all that's maybe for other threads.

[theyspunaweb]

1st - Sorry Letti! I didn't realize, somehow, that I posted such a big spoiler right in the title. I thought I was being so safe, but that's what you guys are here for I guess, thanks!

2nd - I think you guys all really made good points, I like the idea that it may have been that Father Callahan had just come around and completed his part of the quest in the search for the tower, his redemption. Or, the idea that maybe he did go on but just not to meet up with the ka-tet again, and that's what Jake was feeling, that he would not come back, but maybe just not back to them. That could make sense, because Jake could definitely be strong in touch when knowing that.

I guess the idea of the Keystone world is what got me the most turned around, because this far into the story, I forget when we are in the Keystone world(s) and when we weren't & if that has anything to do with it. Alex - I might look into the Talisman and the Black House too, I'm guessing they're more stories by King? I'll check it out.

Thanks guys!

[theyspunaweb]

yeah I just got to the part in the Dark Tower VII where they mention Insomnia! So I think I will!

[Wuducynn]

Black House and Insomnia are the two closest connected books to the Dark Tower Series. Definitely read them.

[Brainslinger]

Alex - I might look into the Talisman and the Black House too, I'm guessing they're more stories by King?
... and co-written with Peter Straub.

Black House has the main DT references, but definitely read Talisman first. It's set before... and more importantly, it's a great read.

[Letti]

1st - Sorry Letti! I didn't realize, somehow, that I posted such a big spoiler right in the title. I thought I was being so safe, but that's what you guys are here for I guess, thanks!

My pleasure, I am a big spoiler hunter. Sometimes I might be way too careful.

What does your boyfriend think about this question now?

[Aaron]

I am pretty sure that it is all laid out in SoS. There is one Keystone Earth, and it is our world--the world of Stephen King. When someone dies there it is permanent, but it doesnt mean that all of their other selves in the multiple worlds die. It just means that that particular version is done, and will not be traveling to any other worlds, as both Jake and Pere Callahan did. I am almost positive there is a quote where King states this almost exactly, but I havent any idea where to find it. Another thing that I noticed is that, based on pure logic, Susannah would appear to be from Keystone Earth, because that is the world of the Ka-tet of the Rose, ie Moses Carver. Or maybe I'm wrong...

I need to read the books again. :harrier:

[Brainslinger]

Susannah would appear to be from Keystone Earth, because that is the world of the Ka-tet of the Rose, ie Moses Carver. Or maybe I'm wrong...


Do you remember the dream sequence where a man (or was it a radio) told her that the train doesn't go to that station (I.e. the one that cut off her legs.)? She's not from Keystone Earth. Or at least, she wasn't there when she had the accident.

I did wonder about Moses Carver too. It suggests another Susannah may taken the same route as ours, or possibly they became the same. Alternatively, maybe everyone on some level originate on the Keystone world, but become part of other worlds when they are written about (although they are unaware of the transition except possibly as a strange feeling of disconnectedness like Callahan had when he resided at the lad's funeral during his time at Salem's Lot. (Remember how Eddie speculates with Roland that he thinks everything isn't real, but that does not include the people?)

However, Susannah doesn't directly come from Keystone to Roland's world. If that makes sense.

[lovemachine46147]

I'm new here, recently found this website, and so far I'm loving it already. I'm currently reading The Dark Tower VII again 'cause I felt like I missed some parts. I've searched the website, and I can't find the answer to this question.

What happened to Oy? I know Susannah found Eddie and Jake, but did Oy ever reunite with Jake? Or is he gone for good? I'm gonna be honest with you, I loved Oy! I'm really hoping he found Jake, but do any of you know?

[Ka-Shume]

In the bit where Stephen King talks a minute before you read the ending to the Tower he says something like "And I could tell you that they might of eventually found a dog named Oy" or something, basically says that they would of found a replacement Oy just like Eddie and Jake.

[lovemachine46147]

Awesome! I can't believe I missed that. Thanks, I'm so happy :)

[Letti]

For my part I am happy that Susannah didn't find Oy over there. Perfect happy ending doesn't seem real at all.

[pathoftheturtle]

Too good to be true?

That's deep.

[candy]

no, i agree with letti. it felt rushed!
'oh look here comes a dog with gold rimmed eyes'
obviously not Oy, just a dog that has a small likeness to him

i felt that with the sacrifice Oy made, i was happy that he met the real Jake at the clearing at the end of the path, that to me was the happy ending, i pictured Oy, Jake and Eddie together at the end. :rose:

[pathoftheturtle]

So who is disagreeing? I'm just not sure if I see the point.

It's easy to imagine that "the clearing at the end of the path" is a perfect happy ending, as long as we don't know much about it. Could it be that spiritual happiness is directly opposed to scientific comprehension? Does heaven have to be separate from real life?

[candy]

sorry path, i thought you were disagreeing with letti. my fault for mis-interpreting

in regards to your post, i would not say that death (the clearing) is the perfect happy ending. However, from a purely personal point of view, i would have prefered this ending to the one in the book

[AcidBumbler]

I adored Oy. :)
King said they just might have found a dog whose barks sound eerily like human speech and which has an exceptionally long neck, etc.
Something like that.

[Jean]

no, i agree with letti. it felt rushed!
'oh look here comes a dog with gold rimmed eyes'
obviously not Oy, just a dog that has a small likeness to him
the more I read those discussions, the more I feel that it was all intended - the end being rushed, the dissatisfaction of big part of readers, the vagueness of the outcome for those four... like, you know, we had only our own conscience to deal with it and nothing but our hearts to tell us where the truth lay. It's another of Sai King's visions, and I am very grateful to him that he didn't ruin it by dotting all the i's, which he is otherwise rather prone to doing.

[pathoftheturtle]

It's just frustrating when there are no real answers.

[Jean]

There are real answers, only King doesn't know them. He showed what he knew, the rest is up to us; it's the way of any true mystic, as opposed to seller of quack remedies.

[pathoftheturtle]

That's right, Jean. I'm sorry; I was still talking about the clearing.

When we have the real answers, contentment might no longer seem unrealistic.

[Letti]

It's just frustrating when there are no real answers.

For me it's super exciting. Real mind-candy. It's not frustrating at all. (for me)

[pathoftheturtle]

"Where ignorance is bliss, 'tis folly to be wise."

:orely:

[Twilights Fire]

I found this whole "Susannah found placeholder Eddie, Jake and Oy" a bit dissapointing... I just would like to imagine she really did get together with Eddie, Jake and Oy at the end of the clearing... (Although I don't believe in an afterlife)

[candy]

I found this whole "Susannah found placeholder Eddie, Jake and Oy" a bit dissapointing... I just would like to imagine she really did get together with Eddie, Jake and Oy at the end of the clearing... (Although I don't believe in an afterlife)

:huglove:

[pathoftheturtle]

I don't get it.
How can people get together when they do not exist?

[Jean]

what do you call "exist"? (and "people", for that matter, too)

[pathoftheturtle]

Do you always answer a question with a question?

What I want to know is what is called "really getting together", and what the difference from what happened in DT7 is supposed to be.

[Jean]

I see now. I suppose the answer is "none", because in both cases we have to do with different beings than what they were during the quest, and that is one of the (many) reasons why I don't object to the way it was presented in DT7. By the way, it may also be interpreted as Susannah dying in todash behind the door and actually going to the Clearing, since what happens in the Clearing is not for us to know yet.


Do you always answer a question with a question?
Do I? http://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k291/mishemplushem/Facilitation/bear_wink-1.gif

[candy]

I see now. I suppose the answer is "none", because in both cases we have to do with different beings than what they were during the quest, and that is one of the (many) reasons why I don't object to the way it was presented in DT7. By the way, it may also be interpreted as Susannah dying in todash behind the door and actually going to the Clearing, since what happens in the Clearing is not for us to know yet.

Do you always answer a question with a question?
Do I? http://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k291/mishemplushem/Facilitation/bear_wink-1.gif

oooo interesting! mm i shall ponder on this awhile:orely:

[Twilights Fire]

I found this whole "Susannah found placeholder Eddie, Jake and Oy" a bit dissapointing... I just would like to imagine she really did get together with Eddie, Jake and Oy at the end of the clearing... (Although I don't believe in an afterlife)

:huglove:

Was that a joke at my expense ;-)

[candy]

I found this whole "Susannah found placeholder Eddie, Jake and Oy" a bit dissapointing... I just would like to imagine she really did get together with Eddie, Jake and Oy at the end of the clearing... (Although I don't believe in an afterlife)

:huglove:

Was that a joke at my expense ;-)

not at all, i actually agree with you if you look further up the thread you will see that i mentioned it earlier.

[Twilights Fire]

I found this whole "Susannah found placeholder Eddie, Jake and Oy" a bit dissapointing... I just would like to imagine she really did get together with Eddie, Jake and Oy at the end of the clearing... (Although I don't believe in an afterlife)

:huglove:

Was that a joke at my expense ;-)

not at all, i actually agree with you if you look further up the thread you will see that i mentioned it earlier.

Wohoo to our agreement! :nana:

[Russ]

King says they will find a dog with a long neck that's bark sometimes sounds like speech.

[pathoftheturtle]

I suggest that What happened to Oy? (http://www.thedarktower.org/palaver/showthread.php?t=8723) be merged with this thread.

The title could be something like "Justifying the Fates of Characters."