A Clockwork Orange *spoilers for the book and movie*

[Brice]

This thread is for discussion, comparison, and general love of all things A Clockwork Orange be it film or book. It's primary purpose is as a comparison of the two, but a little general love of it won't be frowned upon too much my droogs.


So to begin: What variances do you see in the morality represented by the two?

[fernandito]

:clap:

I'm sure this is going to be Sarah's new favorite thread! :cyclops:

I'll answer your question later on in the day, sir.

[Brice]

Yes, I thought about putting Sarah's name in the thread title. :cyclops:

[Woofer]

{sneak}Mark spoilers? Put spoiler warning in the title? My whole post is a spoiler... Just use one giant spoiler tag?{/sneak}

[Brice]

I'll add spoilers to the title. I'm glad you thought of that.

[Jean]

and I will add that radioactive sign... now everything is perfect! http://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k291/mishemplushem/Facilitation/0134-bear.gif

[Brice]

Thank you Jean! :D

[Woofer]

Viddy well, oh my brothers, viddy well.

I love the ending of the movie and find the final chapter of the book to be a cop out. We have been introduced to a youth, Alex, who is in love with ultraviolence and all things associated with it. His greatest joy in life is to bring pain and suffering to others. We have also been introduced to his droogs, who are enamored of ultraviolence and all things associated with it, but who do not appear to be as completely immersed in it as our humble narrator. In the final chapter of the book, we are presented with an older Alex who is now rethinking his ways and finding them childish. He runs into Pete, who has abandoned the old gang ways and has integrated into proper society. He (Alex) has begun to carry around a picture of a baby in his wallet and to have feelings/desires to settle down, get married, have a baby even.

Bullshit. I don’t buy it. Alex is a sociopath for the entire novel – even when he has been twisted by the Ludovico treatment he still wishes to be the sociopath that he was. Consequently, I don’t buy for one second that just because he reaches 21 he suddenly realizes that violence is childish and he should get a shave and a haircut and a house and a wife. I buy it with Pete. I’ll even buy it with Dim and Georgie (or would, if Georgie lived). But not for one second do I believe that Alex has begun a 180° change. That boy was too much of a sociopath to start getting mushy over babies with milk on their faces. I see grown up Alex as cultivating new ways to get what he wants or to torture others. Yes, yes. I see what Burgess was doing and saying – or trying to do and say – but I don’t agree with it for this character.

I was supremely disappointed when I first got my hands on a copy of the British release of the novel. I’d been reading the American version, which ends without the final chapter to correspond to the film, and was quite surprised to see everything so glibly excused as “childhood’s folly” because children are like clockwork oranges.

Great topic, Brice! There is just so much in this novel (and film) to love: the concepts of nature verses nurture, governmental thought control, and the power language and music to name a few.

Appy polly loggies for the vehemence, but the final chapter tolchocks me in the gulliver every time I read it.

[Brice]

I'll expound a little more later on, but I don't really think Alex is a true sociopath. Although to be honest I don't consider sociopathy a real psychological disorder any way.

[Hannah]

love the movie, but i've never been able to read the damn book. I think, at this point, I've seen the movie too often to put up with reading the book, which honestly just annoys me every time I try to read it.

[Hannah]

I'll expound a little more later on, but I don't really think Alex is a true sociopath. Although to be honest I don't consider sociopathy a real psychological disorder any way.

Interesing. I think you should start a discussing that. :lol:


(seriously, though.)

[Brice]

love the movie, but i've never been able to read the damn book. I think, at this point, I've seen the movie too often to put up with reading the book, which honestly just annoys me every time I try to read it.


It's a shame. IMO the book is much better in some ways.

[Brice]

I'll expound a little more later on, but I don't really think Alex is a true sociopath. Although to be honest I don't consider sociopathy a real psychological disorder any way.

Interesing. I think you should start a discussing that. :lol:


(seriously, though.)


Maybe I will. :) Or a general psychology thread where I can point out that 95% of it is bullshit. :lol: Really though, I think we as a society are obsessed with labels. Everything is a disorder. Sociopathy or APD is little more than selfishness to the extreme.

[fernandito]

I have to admit I'm a sucker for the ending of the novel and the message it conveys - it's never too late to rethink your ways and ultimately better ones self.

(Cheesy , I know)

[Woofer]

I'll expound a little more later on, but I don't really think Alex is a true sociopath. Although to be honest I don't consider sociopathy a real psychological disorder any way.

Interesing. I think you should start a discussing that. :lol:


(seriously, though.)


Maybe I will. :) Or a general psychology thread where I can point out that 95% of it is bullshit. :lol: Really though, I think we as a society are obsessed with labels. Everything is a disorder. Sociopathy or APD is little more than selfishness to the extreme.

Sorry for using that word. I used it because it would convey what what you just described succinctly and with little doubt as to what I meant about the character. Carry on.

[obscurejude]

Hey guys, I've recently been turned on to Stanley K. and I now have this movie in my possession. I haven't watched it yet, but its on the radar. Part of the reason I wanted to see it was because of Brice and Woofer, two members whom I really respect. I knew you guys loved it as well as Bergy whom I don't know well but seems like a smart cat too.

[Brice]

Excellent! I hope you enjoy it. :D It's really a great film.

[MonteGss]

I do plan on reading the book, because I guess I will like it. That said, I really disliked the movie and would probably avoid it in the future.

I'm sorry to spoil the love-fest of Kubrick though...:( He just isn't all that, imo.

[jayson]

Hey guys, I've recently been turned on to Stanley K. and I now have this movie in my possession. I haven't watched it yet, but its on the radar. Part of the reason I wanted to see it was because of Brice and Woofer, two members whom I really respect. I knew you guys loved it as well as Bergy whom I don't know well but seems like a smart cat too.

Hey Ryan. You've been known to listen to my suggestions a time or two as well and I have nothing but good things to say about the film. I think it's a spectacular film that gets better with repeated viewings. Probably my only "problem" with it is that since I first saw it I have never been able to see Malcolm McDowell as anything other than Alex, but I suppose that's just a testament to how powerful he is in the role.

I have yet to read the book, but this thread has definitely kindled my interest in doing so and I have added it to my list of books to buy.

[obscurejude]

That makes me want to watch it even more Jayson. I've just been putting it off because its not exactly a "feel good" movie and things have been a little difficult for me personally here the past few days. I hope to watch by the end of the week and look forward to some good movie discussion. :)

[jayson]

That makes me want to watch it even more Jayson. I've just been putting it off because its not exactly a "feel good" movie and things have been a little difficult for me personally here the past few days. I hope to watch by the end of the week and look forward to some good movie discussion. :)

Hope things turn around for you soon Ryan. You could always watch "Dr. Strangelove" as well if you are on a Kubrick kick. If that doesn't make you laugh, your sense of humor is broken.

[Woofer]

That makes me want to watch it even more Jayson. I've just been putting it off because its not exactly a "feel good" movie and things have been a little difficult for me personally here the past few days. I hope to watch by the end of the week and look forward to some good movie discussion. :)

Hope things turn around for you soon Ryan. You could always watch "Dr. Strangelove" as well if you are on a Kubrick kick. If that doesn't make you laugh, your sense of humor is broken.

And if it's broken, you'll have to answer to the Coca-Cola company.

[obscurejude]

Just finished the movie. Maybe because I'm a child of modernity (unfortunately), I didn't find it too shocking. I'm going to think about it some more before I post anything more in depth, but my initial reaction is a pleasant one. I really enjoyed it, but I could see how the Stanley K. enthusiast might find it dragging at points. I watched 2001 about a week ago and there's more dialog in the first five minutes of Clockwork than that whole movie (unless you count the apes).

Anyways, thanks for the recommendation guys. I really enjoyed it. :grouphug:
Lets talk about some specifics. :)

[Brice]

I'm glad to hear you enjoyed it, Ryan. :thumbsup: Now, you should get the book. Matter of fact if you're still wanting to come for a visit next month you can have mine (provided I can find it Saturday when I go to my shed).

And yeah, it's not so shocking now (not much in film is anymore), but as a product of it's time it was rather controversial from what I understand. In that context I can see why.

[Míchéal]

I didn't even know it was a book. ooops. I love the movie though.

[fernandito]

You should read the book, Micheal. It'll scar you for life - in a good way. :)

[Brice]

Yes, and it's an excellent book at that. :)

[Woofer]

Yay! I'm so glad you liked it, Ryan. I think you'll enjoy the book just as much. I'm anxious to hear your thoughts on it.

I first saw the movie in 1980. While by then it had lost its total shock value, it still packed quite a punch. A friend's mom told me that went to see it in the theater when it was released and literally walked out when Billy Boy and his droogs were raping the young devotchka.

I'm supposed to be going to ScreamFest (http://www.spookyempire.com/) in October, and Malcolm McDowell (young Malcolm McDowell = :drool:) is scheduled to be there. I hope that I can get him to sign my copy of ACO. I'm so :excited: at the prospect.

[LadyHitchhiker]

I read the book AND saw the movie and I totally agree with Woofer about the ending of the book, thank ye sai big big. I think the movie's ending was better. :D

[Míchéal]

I'm gonna look for it this week.

[obscurejude]

Brice is going to give me a copy of the book. :excited:

Alex voice:

Hey thanks ol' chap.

[B Rag]

So, a couple months ago, my cousins and I were discussing getting together to watch a movie. I suggested A Clockwork Orange, because I'd heard such great things about it on .net. It turned out that one of my cousins owns the movie! So we watched it, and thought it was great. A couple weeks ago, I decided to check out the book from my school's library (My dad said he thought we have the book, but we've no idea where it is). I just finished reading it today, and enjoyed it a lot too.

I'd say I like the movie better, but they're both really badass. :thumbsup:

[Brice]

Yes, indeed they are. The movie is definitely visually and sonically striking. In my opinion both are brilliant.

[flaggwalkstheline]

i like the movie better, i guess the books ending was more humane but the whole story was a fable on how deep down all people r beasts so i didnt think that last chapter really fit

[John_and_Yoko]

The last chapter fit with the author's intent, but personally I'm going to have to go with Kubrick on this one.

It has an "Orwellian" feel to it, and Orwell would NOT have had Alex redeemed.

Thing is, Anthony Burgess's point was that true goodness requires the CHOICE to do good, which really means having the option of doing bad. So to have true morality one must risk having just the opposite, counterintuitive though it sounds. That's why he wanted to have Alex be redeemed at the end, because he saw firsthand how all his former victims had it, and matured beyond his love for ultraviolence and rape.

However, I think Kubrick's ending is first of all more realistic (he seems more the type who'd want revenge on those who have wronged him than to become enlightened--especially growing up in such a decadent society anyway), and also more right for the kind of story being told (he doesn't need a character arc, thus he doesn't need to "mature" beyond what he is--and also Kubrick wanted to point out the immorality of the brainwashing itself, regardless of who it was being done to, so he had to have Alex remain evil even at the end).